Glee

[Matt]

There's a difference between being flawed and being a jerk though.

Bingo!

Eh. Rachel and Kurt aren't jerks though. Kurt and Rachel have set aside their differences in the past. The scene at sectionals and the budding friendship between them shows that.

Quinn and Santana yes. Big old *****y jerks. Will is even a jerk 80 percent of the time.

So the two jerks form a jerky friendship that enables their jerkiness and conceit. I'm supposed to applaud that?

 

[Matt]

All of the character are "unlikable".

As you said, Kurt/Rachel/Mercedes are divas. Quinn/Santana are outright nasty. Artie is a male chauvinist who constantly objectifies the girls (all off screen, at that). Sue is a bully. Will is a terrible teacher who buries his students in his personal problems. Emma led Ken Tanaka on. Puck is a jerk. Brittany is a ****. Finn is an idiot when he chooses to be.

They're all awful people at the end of the day.

Not really. Finn is an idiot but a likable idiot. Puck is a jerk, but he's funny and he clearly has a good heart. Something I've never seen from Kurt (love for one's father does not equate to being a good person) or Rachel, in fact, for a character who is redeemed by "correcting her mistakes," only ever seems to correct them when she benefits from doing so and it advances her own personal agenda. Its not like 'I was wrong, sorry.' Its more like 'Finn will like me better if I admit I was wrong, so I'll begrudgingly do that.' At least Quinn showed geniune remorse. I don't think I've ever seen that from Rachel.

Sue is a bully, but she's the antagonist of the show, so I can't really hold that against her.

Will geniunely cares about his students. He may let his personal life leak into his job, but everyone does and he always learns from it.

Ken Tanaka basically pressured and guilted Emma into that relationship by accusing her of being a home wrecker and he did so knowing that she did not love him, so its hard to hold her responsible for leading him on when he knew that she did not love him.

Finn is dumb, but that doesn't make him unlikable. In fact, he is, IMO, the most likable character on the show.

As for Artie, calling him a chauvinist seems like a stretch being as it just seemed to be a ridiculous tack on to the character to emphasize the whole women empowerment theme of the Madonna episode. He may be a chauvinist, but it was the result of bad writing so I don't hold it against him.

 

[Prison Mike]

Not really. Finn is an idiot but a likable idiot. Puck is a jerk, but he's funny and he clearly has a good heart. Something I've never seen from Kurt (love for one's father does not equate to being a good person) or Rachel, in fact, for a character who is redeemed by "correcting her mistakes," only ever seems to correct them when she benefits from doing so and it advances her own personal agenda. Its not like 'I was wrong, sorry.' Its more like 'Finn will like me better if I admit I was wrong, so I'll begrudgingly do that.' At least Quinn showed geniune remorse. I don't think I've ever seen that from Rachel.

Sue is a bully, but she's the antagonist of the show, so I can't really hold that against her.

Will geniunely cares about his students. He may let his personal life leak into his job, but everyone does and he always learns from it.

Ken Tanaka basically pressured and guilted Emma into that relationship by accusing her of being a home wrecker and he did so knowing that she did not love him, so its hard to hold her responsible for leading him on when he knew that she did not love him.

Finn is dumb, but that doesn't make him unlikable. In fact, he is, IMO, the most likable character on the show.

As for Artie, calling him a chauvinist seems like a stretch being as it just seemed to be a ridiculous tack on to the character to emphasize the whole women empowerment theme of the Madonna episode. He may be a chauvinist, but it was the result of bad writing so I don't hold it against him.

I agree 100% with this. Especially the Rachel part. I do think Kurt is a good person but at times he's just too damn annoying. But I agree that Rachel does good deeds only when it affects her positively.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Not really. Finn is an idiot but a likable idiot. Puck is a jerk, but he's funny and he clearly has a good heart. Something I've never seen from Kurt (love for one's father does not equate to being a good person) or Rachel, in fact, for a character who is redeemed by "correcting her mistakes," only ever seems to correct them when she benefits from doing so and it advances her own personal agenda. Its not like 'I was wrong, sorry.' Its more like 'Finn will like me better if I admit I was wrong, so I'll begrudgingly do that.' At least Quinn showed geniune remorse. I don't think I've ever seen that from Rachel.

Sue is a bully, but she's the antagonist of the show, so I can't really hold that against her.

Will geniunely cares about his students. He may let his personal life leak into his job, but everyone does and he always learns from it.

Ken Tanaka basically pressured and guilted Emma into that relationship by accusing her of being a home wrecker and he did so knowing that she did not love him, so its hard to hold her responsible for leading him on when he knew that she did not love him.

Finn is dumb, but that doesn't make him unlikable. In fact, he is, IMO, the most likable character on the show.

As for Artie, calling him a chauvinist seems like a stretch being as it just seemed to be a ridiculous tack on to the character to emphasize the whole women empowerment theme of the Madonna episode. He may be a chauvinist, but it was the result of bad writing so I don't hold it against him.

1. Antagonist or not, we just had an episode where Sue called her own mother a bully as if she's not one herself. So yeah. Sue doesn't get a pass because she's the villain of the show. She's still an awful person.

2. Will doesn't learn from letting her personal life leak into his student's life. Otherwise he wouldn't do it AGAIN every other 2 to 3 episodes. Not to mention he was a bad teacher from episode 1 by putting WEED in Finn's locker to get him into Glee club. He's probably actually the most awful person on the show.

3. Finn isn't a saint either. He stood around and let Kurt get bullied back before he was in Glee club, and after their parents go involved. If he was such a good guy and felt so bad about it, he would've done something more than hold Kurt's designer jacket. Finn also handled the Kurt situation just as awful as Kurt himself did. If he didn't want Kurt's advances he had all of probably 14 episodes to stop Kurt and gently let him down instead of letting it escalate to the point it did.

4. Artie is a jerk from the first episode he and Tina legit start something. He dumps her and basically says that all he ever really saw in her was a speech disorder that made them have something in common. Then the chauvanistic stuff started in the Madonna episode and continues on to at least the moment he started dating Britt.

 

[JP]

In Matt's opinion everyone but Rachel and Kurt are likable.

In my opinion everyone has unlikable qualities, but I still love them.

Lets just agree to disagree.

 

[Matt]

1. Antagonist or not, we just had an episode where Sue called her own mother a bully as if she's not one herself. So yeah. Sue doesn't get a pass because she's the villain of the show. She's still an awful person.

The antagonist DOES get a pass as it is their job to be unlikable. That is her role on the show. She fills it well.

2. Will doesn't learn from letting her personal life leak into his student's life. Otherwise he wouldn't do it AGAIN every other 2 to 3 episodes. Not to mention he was a bad teacher from episode 1 by putting WEED in Finn's locker to get him into Glee club. He's probably actually the most awful person on the show.

And in doing so also became a surrogate father to Finn. Will may have done something devious, but in that case the end justifies the means.

3. Finn isn't a saint either. He stood around and let Kurt get bullied back before he was in Glee club, and after their parents go involved. If he was such a good guy and felt so bad about it, he would've done something more than hold Kurt's designer jacket. Finn also handled the Kurt situation just as awful as Kurt himself did. If he didn't want Kurt's advances he had all of probably 14 episodes to stop Kurt and gently let him down instead of letting it escalate to the point it did.

It wasn't Finn's fight. Kurt never told anyone how bad it truly was, so it is unfair to expect Finn to do anything. As for letting Kurt down gently, not many teenage boys would feel comfortable letting a girl done gently, much less another guy. You're really reaching.

4. Artie is a jerk from the first episode he and Tina legit start something. He dumps her and basically says that all he ever really saw in her was a speech disorder that made them have something in common. Then the chauvanistic stuff started in the Madonna episode and continues on to at least the moment he started dating Britt.

Oh please, Tina deceived and manipulated him. She should've been told off for faking her stutter. Its a terrible thing to do. Especially when you know a disabled person and manipulate them in that way. Chauvinist Artie is again, the result of bad writing so I'm giving it a pass.

And all the examples you give, are apples and oranges compared to three characters who talk down to other people, treat them like **** on a regular basis, go out of their way to do mean things, then cry because they are bullied. Its hard to feel bad for a bully being bullied, to be honest.

 

[Prison Mike]

I blame the writing. A lot of it is inconsistent. I mean the whole "chauvinistic" attitude from the boys in the Madonna episode came out of nowhere.

 

[Matt]

In Matt's opinion everyone but Rachel and Kurt are likable.

In my opinion everyone has unlikable qualities, but I still love them.

Lets just agree to disagree.

I'll agree to disagree but please do not skew my opinion or put words in my mouth.

I've admitted both Sue and Santana are unlikable. But as ANTAGONISTS, it is their role on the show to be unlikable. Plus they are funny, so they've got that going for them (something neither Kurt nor Rachel have in their unlikability). I've also said Mercedes is incredibly unlikable for the same reasons as Kurt and Rachel.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

I'm agreeing to disagree, because you're just flipping insane in your observations of this show.

I should know by now, you can not get through your skull anything you don't want to see.

 

[Matt]

I'm agreeing to disagree, because you're just flipping insane in your observations of this show.

I should know by now, you can not get through your skull anything you don't want to see.

Says the guy who insisted for weeks despite all evidence to the contrary that Sam was Kurt's love interest.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Yes, there was undertones. Undertones they have since dropped, Chord and Ryan Murphy both have stated this.

So no, I wasn't going insane. The storyline was originally going there. But whatever.

 

[Prison Mike]

The only undertones I saw were in the Duets episode. After that, I didn't see any hints at him possibly being gay.

 

[JP]

I'll agree to disagree but please do not skew my opinion or put words in my mouth.

You do the same to Billy and I so.. pot.kettle.black.

I've admitted both Sue and Santana are unlikable. But as ANTAGONISTS, it is their role on the show to be unlikable. Plus they are funny, so they've got that going for them (something neither Kurt nor Rachel have in their unlikability). I've also said Mercedes is incredibly unlikable for the same reasons as Kurt and Rachel.

Well now, that's your opinion. The writers have done an excellent job of giving EVERY character on the show hilarious lines.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Eh. Rachel and Kurt aren't jerks though. Kurt and Rachel have set aside their differences in the past. The scene at sectionals and the budding friendship between them shows that.

Quinn and Santana yes. Big old *****y jerks. Will is even a jerk 80 percent of the time.

I'd say Kurt can often be a jerk when he doesn't get his own way, Rachel is more deluded than anything, and she only ever tries to make things right when she gets caught out, she never really learns from her self centered ways.

Quinn's *****iness fluctuates where as Santana is more a caricature than anything, that is why her current arc is interesting as it seems she is about to get more story to work with. Will is such a badly written character, he's got more issues than a teenager and piles them all on his kids, yet comes off as mister nice guy in a lot of scenes.

I blame the writing. A lot of it is inconsistent. I mean the whole "chauvinistic" attitude from the boys in the Madonna episode came out of nowhere.

Spot on, the characters personalities seem to be tweaked each week to fit whatever the episodes theme is.

 

[Matt]

Maybe, but I've honestly never found anything from Kurt, Mercedes, or Rachel to be funny.

 

[Prison Mike]

Spot on, the characters personalities seem to be tweaked each week to fit whatever the episodes theme is.

Exactly. I guess it's Ryan Murphy's signature move. I've never seen Popular but I do remember some out of character moments in Nip/Tuck.

 

[DACrowe]

Sorry for the delay, but I just watched the episode...Man, Rachel is a *****.

First she freaks out on her boyfriend for having slept with someone when THEY WERE NOT TOGETHER AND SHE WAS DATING SOMEBODY ELSE! Then she cheats on him to get even?

And poor Mr. Schue. Emma is on the path to a quick divorce by the end of the season, methinks.

The rest of the episode was very entertaining and moved the plot ahead. But not one character seems happy--which is different for Glee. On the other hand I found the music pretty bad for a "Sectionals" episode. Very strange.

Solid, but not amazing.

 

[JP]

And poor Mr. Schue. Emma is on the path to a quick divorce by the end of the season, methinks.

I hope not.

 

[Primal Slayer]

On a different note, I am tired of seeing Corey/Lea/Diana always representing Glee on covers and interviews. Time to let the rest of the cast shine and put them out on there.

 

[Matt]

Colfer was on Conan the other night.

 

[Prison Mike]

I want to see Artie or Tina or Santana doing interviews on these shows.

And I will always remember Artie as the pizza delivery boy in that season 4 episode of The Office.

 

[Schlosser85]

I'll agree to disagree but please do not skew my opinion or put words in my mouth.

.....

KETTLE IS BLACK??

Seriously, this from you of all people is pretty funny.

 

[Prison Mike]

From what I've seen in this thread, if you say something negative about Kurt or Rachel you get pounced on.

 

[Sawyer]

From what I've seen in this thread, if you say something negative about Kurt or Rachel you get pounced on.

Lay off Porcelain and the Hobbit!

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Nevermind. Not worth my time.