Age of Ultron Hank Pym?

[StreetWarrior]

Doctor Strange and even Black Panther are nowhere as important to the Avengers as Hank Pym is.

Agreed 100% but don't discount the Black Pather too much. If you were to name the most important (classic Avengers) it would probably look something like (in relative order):

1. Captain America
2. Iron Man
3. Thor
4. Hank Pym
5. Wasp
6. Hawkeye
7. Scarlet Witch
8. Quicksilver
9. Vision
10. Black Panther
11. Ms. Marvel/Warbird
12. WonderMan
13. Black Widow
14. Beast (*X-Man, I know, Fox, etc.)
15. Black Knight

Despite what the movie depicts, the Hulk wasn't really a long-term/integral part of the team. He was there at formation and involved more in recent years but it would be a stretch to call the Hulk a regular member.

 

[babykhris]

Doctor Strange and even Black Panther are nowhere as important to the Avengers as Hank Pym is.

How is Pym important to the Avengers? In this world he's not a founder. In this world he's not Ultron's creator. I would be surprised if Pym was the therapist of super-villains like he was in AEMH before the jail break.

 

[StreetWarrior]

How is Pym important to the Avengers? In this world he's not a founder. In this world he's not Ultron's creator. I would be surprised if Pym was the therapist of super-villains like he was in AEMH before the jail break.

From a view that focuses ONLY on the cinematic universe, which is fine. But where do you draw the line on what's important to adapt and what's not. The movie might be great without Pym but this is getting dangerously close to Fox mentality of ignoring the comics and doing there own thing (which backfires quite a lot). As Whedon has stated in the past, it's important to be true to the source material. Some deviations are fine but this is a pretty big one. I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why so many people are upset about the change/ lack of inclusion.

For many long-term fans, the name "Hank Pym" is synonomous with "Avenger". The same cannot be said for the other characters you listed (except for maybe Black Panther)...

 

[babykhris]

Reason I said Pym not as an Avenger is because we do need other things in the MCU besides the Avengers. Guardians of the Galaxy isn't a part of the Avengers, which shows that the MCU is trying to diversify.

Ant-Man's film is rumored to revolve around an older Pym mentoring Scott Lang. So why is Pym even being mentioned.

 

[Shikamaru]

Agreed 100% but don't discount the Black Pather too much. If you were to name the most important (classic Avengers) it would probably look something like (in relative order):

1. Captain America
2. Iron Man
3. Thor
4. Hank Pym
5. Wasp
6. Hawkeye
7. Scarlet Witch
8. Quicksilver
9. Vision
10. Black Panther
11. Ms. Marvel/Warbird
12. WonderMan
13. Black Widow
14. Beast (*X-Man, I know, Fox, etc.)
15. Black Knight

Despite what the movie depicts, the Hulk wasn't really a long-term/integral part of the team. He was there at formation and involved more in recent years but it would be a stretch to call the Hulk a regular member.

I'm not discounting the fact that Black Panther is one of the most important members. However, Hank is still more important than even him. Black Panther would be more like the Aquaman/Martian Manhunter of the Avengers when it comes to importance while Hank Pym would be more like Flash/Green Lantern in that regard. Both Aquaman and Martian Manhunter are two of the most important members on the JL but Flash and GL are a slightly bigger priority. Same thing goes for the Black Panther/Hank Pym comparison.

What I'm saying everyone in the MCU doesn't have to be Avengers. Ant-Man could be a hero doing his own thing. He could be the bridge that expands the street level hero. Why are we tied to doing things the old way?

GoTG will be treated as a stand alone to expand the cosmic side of the MCU.
Dr. Strange will be a standalone to expand the major side.
Why not use Ant-Man to eventually introduce us to the Luke Cages, the Daredevils,etc.

No, not everyone in the MCU has to be an Avenger. However, Hank is a very crucial member. That's like WB announcing that the Justice League film won't have the Flash and saying "Not everyone in the DCU has to be a JL member." It completely undermines how important Hank is to the team. Also, the thing that made Hank such a great character in the first place was because he was in the Avengers. To strip him of the Avengers and of his ties to Ultron is to literally turn him into the joke that so many people assume Ant-Man to be.

How is Pym important to the Avengers? In this world he's not a founder. In this world he's not Ultron's creator. I would be surprised if Pym was the therapist of super-villains like he was in AEMH before the jail break.

I was talking about the comics. I already addressed why he is important to the Avengers in the comics.

 

[StreetWarrior]

Reason I said Pym not as an Avenger is because we do need other things in the MCU besides the Avengers. Guardians of the Galaxy isn't a part of the Avengers, which shows that the MCU is trying to diversify.

Ant-Man's film is rumored to revolve around an older Pym mentoring Scott Lang. So why is Pym even being mentioned.

Simply because, in a more faithful adaptation, he would be. I don't think anyone assumed Pym wouldn't be in the Avengers II until Whedon said it. As many have pointed out - Pym and Ultron are directly related in the comics from which the movie is inspired. Pym and the Avengers are directly related to the comics in which the movie is inspired. That's an opinion discussion. I'm saying it makes absolutely perfect sense for Pym to be in the movie. Hence why there's a specific discussion on why he's not. This isn't about whether or not Pym SHOULD be in the movie. If the character had no relation to the topics at hand no one would be discussing them now.

Guardians is it's own thing. Marvel should diversify. On that I agree with you. Part of that diversification should be bringing new characters to the big screen. Read into that what you will.

 

[StreetWarrior]

I'm not discounting the fact that Black Panther is one of the most important members. However, Hank is still more important than even him. Black Panther would be more like the Aquaman/Martian Manhunter of the Avengers when it comes to importance while Hank Pym would be more like Flash/Green Lantern in that regard. Both Aquaman and Martian Manhunter are two of the most important members on the JL but Flash and GL are a slightly bigger priority. Same thing goes for the Black Panther/Hank Pym comparison.

Oh, I agree 100%. I was just trying to show babykhris that they're both Avengers. Pym is indeed far more important.

Following your analogy though, if Pym is Batman, Lang is Batgirl. The only reason Scott Lang is hitting the big screen is because Wright is fan of such an obscure character.

 

[Shikamaru]

Oh, I agree 100%. I was just trying to show babykhris that they're both Avengers. Pym is indeed far more important.

Following your analogy though, if Pym is Batman, Lang is Batgirl. The only reason Scott Lang is hitting the big screen is because Wright is fan of such an obscure character.

I heard that both Pym and Lang will be present in the Ant-Man movie.

If Lang is the main character though, that will be a major dissapointment for me. That and Ultron in Avengers 2 would pretty much kill all chances of Hank Pym being a crucial member to the team in this universe.

The way in which Marvel has ignored Pym is one of my biggest complaints about the MCU. I love what Marvel did with the MCU but they are by no means a perfect studio. Between turning most of their solo films into Avengers promos, watering down certain dark aspects of the universe such as the Red Skull and ruining the Mandarin's true potential, I would count this as another thing they screwed up on.

 

[babykhris]

I heard that both Pym and Lang will be present in the Ant-Man movie.

If Lang is the main character though, that will be a major dissapointment for me. That and Ultron in Avengers 2 would pretty much kill all chances of Hank Pym being a crucial member to the team in this universe.

The way in which Marvel has ignored Pym is one of my biggest complaints about the MCU. I love what Marvel did with the MCU but they are by no means a perfect studio. Between turning most of their solo films into Avengers promos, watering down certain dark aspects of the universe such as the Red Skull and ruining the Mandarin's true potential, I would count this as another thing they screwed up on.

MCU isn't ignoring Pym. They are even giving him his own film with a high profile director. I don't agree with giving Ant-Man his own film as his rogues suck.

 

[StreetWarrior]

I love what Marvel did with the MCU but they are by no means a perfect studio. Between turning most of their solo films into Avengers promos, watering down certain dark aspects of the universe such as the Red Skull and ruining the Mandarin's true potential, I would count this as another thing they screwed up on.

I'm right there with you. I am incredibly disappointed with how they're handling Pym and I hated nearly everything about Iron Man 3. Aside from that, I think they've been doing an amazing job. Marvel isn't perfect but no one ever will be (Whedon included). I guess we should just be glad for what we're getting. It could be worse - just ask the Cyclops fans.

 

[StreetWarrior]

I don't agree with giving Ant-Man his own film as his rogues suck.

Hence why he was always an Avenger and has had very little solo stuff over the years. By himself, Pym is kind of boring. That's why he needs a team (like the Avengers) to make him shine. If it wasn't for Wright's passion, I'm fairly certain there would be no Ant-Man movie. I like Wright's work but maybe that would have been for the best...

 

[Shikamaru]

MCU isn't ignoring Pym. They are even giving him his own film with a high profile director. I don't agree with giving Ant-Man his own film as his rogues suck.

They are ignoring him. The only reason he is getting a movie in the first place is because Edgar Wright wanted to make it and everything so far points to him not even being the main character and to Scott Lang being Ant-Man.

I don't agree with giving Ant-Man his own film as his rogues suck.

That is exactly why he is important to the Avengers. He is not very interesting by himself. His stories and interactions on the Avengers and his relationship to Ultron is what made him a great character. They completely robbed him of that.

 

[DrCosmic]

From a view that focuses ONLY on the cinematic universe, which is fine. But where do you draw the line on what's important to adapt and what's not. The movie might be great without Pym but this is getting dangerously close to Fox mentality of ignoring the comics and doing there own thing (which backfires quite a lot). As Whedon has stated in the past, it's important to be true to the source material. Some deviations are fine but this is a pretty big one. I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why so many people are upset about the change/ lack of inclusion.

Making great movies never backfires. Just ask Nolan. If a bad guy, even the most important bad guy, has a totally different origin than from comics, but ends up with a similar personality, you still get "the best comic book movie of all time."

Being true to the source material is about the feel of the characters, not the accuracy of the roster, or the process of events.

 

[Shikamaru]

Making great movies never backfires. Just ask Nolan. If a bad guy, even the most important bad guy, has a totally different origin than from comics, but ends up with a similar personality, you still get "the best comic book movie of all time."

Being true to the source material is about the feel of the characters, not the accuracy of the roster, or the process of events.

Are you referring to the Joker? In the comics, the Joker does not have an official canonical story. The way he came to be is a complete mystery and he always remembers/tells his past in a different way, much like TDK.

Sorry for being so off topic.

 

[StreetWarrior]

Making great movies never backfires. Just ask Nolan. If a bad guy, even the most important bad guy, has a totally different origin than from comics, but ends up with a similar personality, you still get "the best comic book movie of all time."

Being true to the source material is about the feel of the characters, not the accuracy of the roster, or the process of events.

I sincerely hope you're right. However, Nolan's a pretty big exception. Many movies stray from the source material for the worse. It could go either way at this point. I have faith in Whedon but nobody's perfect...

EDIT: Removed examples of bad comic book movies that deviated from the source material. I want to prevent an off-topic argument before it starts.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

How is Pym important to the Avengers? In this world he's not a founder. In this world he's not Ultron's creator. I would be surprised if Pym was the therapist of super-villains like he was in AEMH before the jail break.

Wasn't that Samson? It has been awhile since I saw the early episodes.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The problem with Pym is that he doesn't really provide a unique function to the team. In the comics he functions as the team scientist, but the films have Bruce Banner in that role. EMH got around that by having him in Hulk form the whole time, but that's not about to happen in live action.

It isn't really comparable to Justice League either as that group has five crucial heroes. The Avengers truly only have three (Iron Man, Thor & Cap). To say Pym is on the level of Green Lantern isn't really accurate.

Pym is really only known for two things.

1) Creating Ultron
2) Beating his wife

And that's pretty much it. Being present and being important aren't the same thing.

 

[StreetWarrior]

The problem with Pym is that he doesn't really provide a unique function to the team. In the comics he functions as the team scientist, but the films have Bruce Banner in that role. EMH got around that by having him in Hulk form the whole time, but that's not about to happen in live action.

It isn't really comparable to Justice League either as that group has five crucial heroes. The Avengers truly only have three (Iron Man, Thor & Cap). To say Pym is on the level of Green Lantern isn't really accurate.

Pym is really only known for two things.

1) Creating Ultron
2) Beating his wife

And that's pretty much it. Being present and being important aren't the same thing.

Also: PYM PARTICLES! And the Microverse too!

He's never going to live that down, regardless of the insane amount of times he's been redeemed, shown to have changed, saved the planet, etc.

And Pym is also known for FOUNDING THE AVENGERS. Although I guess that's a moot point now...

 

[Ant-manic]

No, not everyone in the MCU has to be an Avenger. However, Hank is a very crucial member. That's like WB announcing that the Justice League film won't have the Flash and saying "Not everyone in the DCU has to be a JL member." It completely undermines how important Hank is to the team. Also, the thing that made Hank such a great character in the first place was because he was in the Avengers. To strip him of the Avengers and of his ties to Ultron is to literally turn him into the joke that so many people assume Ant-Man to be.

Pym is nowhere near as popular as the Flash. it's like making a Justice League movie and leaving out Hawkman, at most. as for the Ant-Man movie, making Hal the lead of Green Lantern didn't work so great for DC. i think they could have probably done the same numbers with John Stewart or Kyle Rayner. having Hank and Scott in the movie won't hurt it, imo.

 

[Ant-manic]

Hence why he was always an Avenger and has had very little solo stuff over the years. By himself, Pym is kind of boring. That's why he needs a team (like the Avengers) to make him shine. If it wasn't for Wright's passion, I'm fairly certain there would be no Ant-Man movie. I like Wright's work but maybe that would have been for the best...

not from my standpoint. i like Ant-man. and i also like Scott Lang. to have a talented individual like Edgar Wright take an interest is a win win, for me.

 

[Shikamaru]

Pym is nowhere near as popular as the Flash. it's like making a Justice League movie and leaving out Hawkman, at most. as for the Ant-Man movie, making Hal the lead of Green Lantern didn't work so great for DC. i think they could have probably done the same numbers with John Stewart or Kyle Rayner. having Hank and Scott in the movie won't hurt it, imo.

And the Avengers are nowhere as popular as the Justice League. They only recently got popular due to the movie. Proportionally speaking and in-universe speaking, Hank is just as important to the Avengers as Flash is to the JL.

Having Scott Lang as the main character won't hurt the film but it will hurt Hank.

 

[Shikamaru]

The problem with Pym is that he doesn't really provide a unique function to the team. In the comics he functions as the team scientist, but the films have Bruce Banner in that role. EMH got around that by having him in Hulk form the whole time, but that's not about to happen in live action.

It isn't really comparable to Justice League either as that group has five crucial heroes. The Avengers truly only have three (Iron Man, Thor & Cap). To say Pym is on the level of Green Lantern isn't really accurate.

Pym is really only known for two things.

1) Creating Ultron
2) Beating his wife

And that's pretty much it. Being present and being important aren't the same thing.

Also being a founding member of the team, one of the top scientists in the MU, creating most of the tech, gadgets, and weapons that the Avengers have (even more than Tony), being the scientist during a big battle, etc. But I guess none of that stuff is important.

Banner specializes in gamma radiation only. Pym is a brilliant scientist when it comes to almost all fields. Plus, Pym is often the one that finds a scientific solution to a problem while the battle is taking place. Banner doesn't have the luxury to do that because he is Hulk during a battle. Plus, Pym has more resources and is not on the run as much as Banner.

 

[Ant-manic]

Oh, I agree 100%. I was just trying to show babykhris that they're both Avengers. Pym is indeed far more important.

Following your analogy though, if Pym is Batman, Lang is Batgirl. The only reason Scott Lang is hitting the big screen is because Wright is fan of such an obscure character.

i don't agree with that analogy. the Wasp is Batgirl, if anything. but there's really no comparison between Batman and these characters. for starters, Batgirl didn't take Batman's costumed identity and carry it for a decade; while Bruce kept bouncing from identity to identity. Pym wasn't all that successful as Ant-Man. he chose to upgrade himself; become Giant-Man. he chose Scott as his successor. and Scott carried the mantle longer than Hank. his daughter inherited the title, in a way.

 

[Ant-manic]

And the Avengers are nowhere as popular as the Justice League. They only recently got popular due to the movie. Proportionally speaking and in-universe speaking, Hank is just as important to the Avengers as Flash is to the JL.

Having Scott Lang as the main character won't hurt the film but it will hurt Hank.

that depends on how he is handled within the movie. for all you know, they set him up to be Giant-Man in Avengers 4. and he won't have to compete with Stark at this point.

 

[StreetWarrior]

i don't agree with that analogy. the Wasp is Batgirl, if anything. but there's really no comparison between Batman and these characters. for starters, Batgirl didn't take Batman's costumed identity and carry it for a decade; while Bruce kept bouncing from identity to identity. Pym wasn't all that successful as Ant-Man. he chose to upgrade himself; become Giant-Man. he chose Scott as his successor. and Scott carried the mantle longer than Hank. his daughter inherited the title, in a way.

I'll admit that I don't have a great grasp on my DC lore and, if your username is any indication, you clealry know more about the Ant-Man legacy than me. I was just suggesting that Pym isn't very well known and Lang is even less known than that. Your right in that it would probably be more fair to present Pym as Giant Man or Yellowjacket rather than Ant-Man. Wasp is just as important as Pym (to the team not in regards to accomplishments).

But, and don't take this the wrong way, Lang was an Avenger for all of five minutes. He was created 16 years after the Avengers was founded and didn't really recieve full Avenger's status until 2003 (and was killed off shortly after). Hell, his daughter may be more significant the M.U. I have nothing against Lang but if it comes down to Pym or Lang, Pym is inifinitely more important.

EDIT: I know Lang's back now.