Has Tony Stark Lost?

[The Overlord]

With Shield dismantled after the events of the secret war and Norman Osborn being named director of its successor organization, Hammer, has Tony failed in his objective to make the SHRA work?

 

[WolfCypher]

Yes. Wow. You pretty much summed up the reasons, what's the point of asking the question?

 

[The Overlord]

Yes. Wow. You pretty much summed up the reasons, what's the point of asking the question?

Because its an interesting question and maybe someone has something they can add or give a slightly take to this question, that's why.

 

[Dread]

Yes, Stark did. One could say he was overly ambitious and alienated some key allies in his aggressive overreaction to Stamford to enforce the SHRA. He and Night-Thrasher (either one) have such a similar tactic of overreaction and an overly controlling demeanor of alienating allies, it really IS a wonder that both of them don't work much together. Thanks to retcons, he had aided in egging the Skrulls on for their invasion (even if most of their anger was on Mr. Fantastic, who they famously refused to kill). His tech was exploited and his system capitalized.

But, Iron Man at least has been knocked down a peg closer to how he was from the movie where more readers can root for him again, in theory.

 

[WolfCypher]

Because its an interesting question and maybe someone has something they can add or give a slightly take to this question, that's why.

Well I'll also add that future solicitations have showed that [BLACKOUT]Iron Man is becoming public enemy number 1 as a result.[/BLACKOUT] I'm hoping Norman becomes the Lex Luthor of Marvel that Marvel so desperately needs.

 

[Dread]

Well I'll also add that future solicitations have showed that [BLACKOUT]Iron Man is becoming public enemy number 1 as a result.[/BLACKOUT] I'm hoping Norman becomes the Lex Luthor of Marvel that Marvel so desperately needs.

But that just reminds us that OMD was "Marvel Spider Crisis" (i.e., a lot of Osborn's past has been whitewashed or fudged by Mephisto) and Luthor isn't even the Luthor he was at DC anymore. I mean, Obama won! Dems control Congress! There's more hope in the air, or there will be once Obama is sworn in. But this story doesn't capture any of that. It almost acts as if Marvel editorial expected McCain to "steal" one and all hope to be lost. DARK REIGN just seemed mis-timed.

Still, Stark running SHIELD was not supposed to be permanent. Nick Fury has to always return somehow.

 

[WolfCypher]

Wait a minute..I'm not fully getting your post...are you saying that Dark Reign was supposed to reflect what would have happened in real life, had McCain won?

I got the rest of your post. I'm hoping that's what you meant, cause that's funny.

 

[Dread]

Wait a minute..I'm not fully getting your post...are you saying that Dark Reign was supposed to reflect what would have happened in real life, had McCain won?

I got the rest of your post. I'm hoping that's what you meant, cause that's funny.

Like anything, DARK REIGN would have been approved months ago, perhaps before the results of Nov. 2008. Maybe even in 2007. The landscape was different then. The theme of DARK REIGN is that Osborn exploited a crisis to gain popularity and power, and will be using a secret cabal of back room outsiders, most of whom are either current villains, past villians, or anti-heroes at best out for their own interests.

Marvel has usually seen themselves as more socially conscious than DC, usually venting anger at Republican regimes since, oh, Gerald Ford (and ages before the Joe Q tenure; he just continued the trend). It just seems flat out WEIRD to get such a cynical story about the government when in barely more than a month, we will swear in a new president, our first black President, who not only enjoys worldwide attention and popularity, but won over 50% of the popular vote with over 330 electorial votes; it wasn't like he was a President elected via some controversy like Bush was, or even as close as the election between Clinton and Bush Sr. was in the early 90's (Clinton won it in the final weeks, when one of Bush Sr.'s people went down in scandal). Obama was the heavy favorite to win all year, and he did; not quite by the 10% some were expecting him to win in the popular vote, but by more than 5%, which in elections is still a sound victory. Polls stated that more than 50% of the public genuinely believed the media was behind Obama and wanted him to win, yet they voted him in by a DECISIVE margin of victory. That means a lot of people believe in him. Plus, it isn't like McCain got nasty about it and went down clawing for a recount (as Al Franken has in his own race, I might add); he departed the stage gracefully and that was that.

And then I turn to Marvel comics and instead of seeing a "finger on the pulse of society" as critics said of CIVIL WAR, I instead see something that seems like a throwback story from 2005 or so. Corrupt, evil man steals power, suckers people, exploits tragedy. It isn't as original as it was a few years ago. It's old hat. It's, gasp, going against reality at the moment! I expected, well, something not quite as bleak and miserable given our upcoming historic presidency and genuine potential for positive change.

But it makes me wonder if Marvel & DC have relied on bleak stuff for so long, they can't tell stories without it. Without that drum-beat.

 

[GNR]

Stark's rise and fall have led to some very entertaining stories.

 

[fifthfiend]

But that just reminds us that OMD was "Marvel Spider Crisis" (i.e., a lot of Osborn's past has been whitewashed or fudged by Mephisto) and Luthor isn't even the Luthor he was at DC anymore. I mean, Obama won! Dems control Congress! There's more hope in the air, or there will be once Obama is sworn in. But this story doesn't capture any of that. It almost acts as if Marvel editorial expected McCain to "steal" one and all hope to be lost. DARK REIGN just seemed mis-timed.

Still, Stark running SHIELD was not supposed to be permanent. Nick Fury has to always return somehow.

You know it's possible that your "Marvel only does negative political stories when Republicans are in office" hypothesis might need to be reevaluated.

(as Al Franken has in his own race, I might add)

I haven't seen a "Democrat" this dedicated to flogging Republican talking points since I stopped reading Mickey Kaus.

 

[masteryoda]

wow

 

[Dread]

You know it's possible that your "Marvel only does negative political stories when Republicans are in office" hypothesis might need to be reevaluated.

My point is that even if they were trying to make some commentary about the recent election or shift in power, it doesn't match up.

The main concern many have with Obama is that he was "too liberal" and/or "too inexperienced." Those qualities do NOT fit Norman Osborn. He is NOT liberal. He is NOT inexperienced. Aside for the red hair, he's a straight laced WASP type. And he's corrupt and borderline crazy. These qualities don't match up well with Obama. Plus, Obama did not "cheaply" capitalize on tragedy to "grab" power, as Norman Osborn did, and as many say Bush did.

It just seems, to me, like a storyline that was poorly timed because perhaps when it was planned in summits some 6-12 months ago, either the Marvel editors didn't think he would win, or were cynical and thought, "stupid Americans will go for the conservative again" much like us stupid Americans re-elected Bush in '04. Norman Osborn is clearly another corrupt conservative type.

A better commentary, just to go off the top of my head, would be Amadous Cho get the credit and be swept into power despite his "shady past with a terrorist" or "inexperience" (i.e. youth) into the head of SHIELD. Plus, Cho would be considered a minority without anyone crying racism, because Asians are stereotyped to be successful.

Plus, see, here is my thing; despite the economy, there is genuine GOOD-WILL in the upcoming Presidential shift. The public and the world is WAITING on calling Obama Mr. President. It's a positive feeling that the color barrier has finally been broken, that history is being made, and so on. After years of negativity about the administrative office, it is refreshing to experience. And then I turn around and see DARK REIGN as another, "America is, was, and always shall be evil" story that now seems outdated. What next? A Richard Nixon joke? How about a return by the alternate reality "Jerald" Ford, Black Lama? For a company that prides itself on being socially conscious and current, I see DARK REIGN as a story idea that is "SO last year".

I haven't seen a "Democrat" this dedicated to flogging Republican talking points since I stopped reading Mickey Kaus.

Well, a lot of hardcore conservative people thought McCain was a Democrat in disguise. I thought that was bunk, personally.

I'm dedicated to fairness, is all.

The terrible thing here is the mainstream news offers nothing fair and balanced; it is propaganda on either side. If you want Conservative propaganda, you have FOX NEWS, 95% of talk radio, 50% of books, and about 25% of local newspapers. If you want Liberal Propaganda, you have CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, PBS, 5% of talk radio, 50% of books, 75% of local newspapers, 95% of all of Hollywood's output, and 99% of all comic books. If you want something moderate that offers facts instead of propaganda on EITHER side, you're **** out of luck, and that is why the nation is too polarized for it's own good. It stinks.

 

[The Overlord]

Like anything, DARK REIGN would have been approved months ago, perhaps before the results of Nov. 2008. Maybe even in 2007. The landscape was different then. The theme of DARK REIGN is that Osborn exploited a crisis to gain popularity and power, and will be using a secret cabal of back room outsiders, most of whom are either current villains, past villians, or anti-heroes at best out for their own interests.

Marvel has usually seen themselves as more socially conscious than DC, usually venting anger at Republican regimes since, oh, Gerald Ford (and ages before the Joe Q tenure; he just continued the trend). It just seems flat out WEIRD to get such a cynical story about the government when in barely more than a month, we will swear in a new president, our first black President, who not only enjoys worldwide attention and popularity, but won over 50% of the popular vote with over 330 electorial votes; it wasn't like he was a President elected via some controversy like Bush was, or even as close as the election between Clinton and Bush Sr. was in the early 90's (Clinton won it in the final weeks, when one of Bush Sr.'s people went down in scandal). Obama was the heavy favorite to win all year, and he did; not quite by the 10% some were expecting him to win in the popular vote, but by more than 5%, which in elections is still a sound victory. Polls stated that more than 50% of the public genuinely believed the media was behind Obama and wanted him to win, yet they voted him in by a DECISIVE margin of victory. That means a lot of people believe in him. Plus, it isn't like McCain got nasty about it and went down clawing for a recount (as Al Franken has in his own race, I might add); he departed the stage gracefully and that was that.

And then I turn to Marvel comics and instead of seeing a "finger on the pulse of society" as critics said of CIVIL WAR, I instead see something that seems like a throwback story from 2005 or so. Corrupt, evil man steals power, suckers people, exploits tragedy. It isn't as original as it was a few years ago. It's old hat. It's, gasp, going against reality at the moment! I expected, well, something not quite as bleak and miserable given our upcoming historic presidency and genuine potential for positive change.

But it makes me wonder if Marvel & DC have relied on bleak stuff for so long, they can't tell stories without it. Without that drum-beat.

You know this may not be a political thing, maybe writers just think more stories out of the government being incompetent and corrupt rather then the government intelligent and honest. I mean fiction is about conflict ultimately about conflict and ultimately the more conflict you have, the more stories. I think comic books are, in some things, somewhat anarchist, considering its medium where people take the law into their own on a regular basis.

 

[prince_dylan]

i think that Norman Osborn is supposed to generally reflect politicians with newfound power. Osborn will have a grace period like any other political figure. Osborn will use tragedy as an opportunity to do what he wants to do in the country. In many minds, Dark Reign would correlate to the McCain administration if that happened, but Marvel's planning cannot be faulted for reality taking a turn away from their proposed stories. Marvel lost a potential relevance without a continuing Republican administration, but now people are left with a story that stands on its own.

 

[SuGarRush]

Well, a lot of hardcore conservative people thought McCain was a Democrat in disguise. I thought that was bunk, personally.

I'm dedicated to fairness, is all.

The terrible thing here is the mainstream news offers nothing fair and balanced; it is propaganda on either side. If you want Conservative propaganda, you have FOX NEWS, 95% of talk radio, 50% of books, and about 25% of local newspapers. If you want Liberal Propaganda, you have CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, PBS, 5% of talk radio, 50% of books, 75% of local newspapers, 95% of all of Hollywood's output, and 99% of all comic books. If you want something moderate that offers facts instead of propaganda on EITHER side, you're **** out of luck, and that is why the nation is too polarized for it's own good. It stinks.

Hardcore nothing, I don't know a single person who called themselves Conservative who WANTED McCain. It was always a choice of a lesser of two evils for us this time around.

And yes, many people would say that Obama capitalized on the war and people being tired of it, and used the anti-bush sentiment to snag a much larger segment of the vote than he normally would have been capable of.

As you have stated before, the conservatives have Fox, talk radio, and some books. Oh and 1 out of 4 newspapers, but that is usually the little town papers, with almost all National papers being strongly liberal.

The rest of the media rests FIRMLY and securely in the hands of the liberal left, and their CLEAR favoritism of Obama helped push the election in his favor. Frankly, he had better name recognition from all the free advertising he was getting.

I guess it's amusing Dread, in light of the incoming presidency, I thought Dark reign was a fitting title. A lot of us are dreading the next 4 years. t:

Lets not forget who the REAL president of the marvel universe should be,
Stephen Colbert. He won the vote, Marvel just wouldn't stick to their guns...

 

[Sloth7d]

If Norman is supposed to represent McCain, then who is supposed to represent Palin? Better not be Emma Frost! I'll never forgive Marvel. Ever.

 

[Ikaris-Eternal]

i think you're implying specific analogues here when the metaphors are clearly not that expressed. Dark Reign could easily be intended as more of a "warning" metaphor - or a comment on post-911 politics in general - rather than Marvel "predicting" the 2008 election winner.

 

[BrianWilly]

Oh this will end well.

 

[Darthphere]

i think you're implying specific analogues here when the metaphors are clearly not that expressed. Dark Reign could easily be intended as more of a "warning" metaphor - or a comment on post-911 politics in general - rather than Marvel "predicting" the 2008 election winner.

Stop it. Now.

 

[storyteller]

Dark Reign was never about the presidential election of the personal views shared by marvel writers. They put took Norman Osbourn and turned him into a Lex Luther figure. And frankly would the baddest evil controlling the country/world make for one hell of story?

 

[MightyAvenge]

Maybe Marvel isn't trying to reflect sociaty, maybe they're just trying to tell a good story that has nothing to do with our reality. It's a sad day when all comics HAVE to reflect or have some hidden message that has to do with our Government etc... Let's stop looking for hidden meanings and enjoy the stories for what they are. Stories. Let's enjoy super-powers, capes, and flash costumes, let's stop trying to connect every comic with our society. IMO

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Comics have taken on a hugely political bent lately. I think it'd be a mistake to assume that nothing in Dark Reign is pulled from reality.

 

[Vanguard07]

My Theory regarding Tony is that it's been Extremis all along that made him into a crazy, unlikeable, semi-evil ***hole that he's been ever since he got it.

This theory is strengthened IMO by one of the solicits that indicate that Tony is going to undergo some sort of dangerous self cure of something. (it's the solicit with the image of Tony strapped to a table with a needle about to be jammed in his eye).

The idea that he's curing himself soon and during this whole underdog redemption type arc indicates to me that I'm probably right.

I don't really think you can say he lost though. He's still alive. He's still a billionaire as far as anyone can tell and he succeeded in fending off the Skrull invasion and saving the planet (admittedly after some blunders and with a lot of help). So he lost his job and some of his status but not really anything else.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He's also a fugitive being hunted by the US government. Small but important addition to your list of consequences.

I don't think Extremis was affecting Tony's mind at all, either. At least, I hope they don't go that route with him. He's still been heroic, just in an extremely arrogant, self-serving way. That fits pretty well for a guy who revolutionized the tech industry and has enough money to rule the world, I think.

 

[chiefchirpa]

Lost is a temporary thing in a bigger Roller coaster like scheme. Next year or maybe sooner he'll tangle either Norman or Dr Doom to get even on what they did to him in Dark Reign.



Between that time & now Stark is going from his Echo Base to another global hideouts just like the Rebel did in Star Wars. Stark is powerful and resourceful enough to escape the clutch of the Dark Illuminati without being too overpowered. Iron “John Kimble” Man story is perfect.