Hating Mutants Makes No Sense: The X-Men Should Have a Separate Universe

[Arach Knight]

Ever since I was a young child, I was always bothered by the established reasoning that humans in the Marvel universe had a hatred of mutants. In a very real sense, hating an evolved person makes a great deal of sense, given that what we know of human evolution and early humans, the more advanced species tends to win out. So having a fear of a more advanced branch of humanity makes sense.

In fact the focus of the 1953 science-fiction novel, Children of the Atom (which some believe inspired Stan Lee to create the X-Men) addresses this very fact. It is bit of a reoccurring trope in other works such as The Tomorrow People.

The reason why those stories work though, is because the Children and the Tomorrow People are both the only beings of their kind in an otherwise ordinary world. The X-Men exist in a world where they are not the only metahumans, and isn't as if humans fear/hate all metahumans. Mutants are specifically singled out. This is where the mutant hate rhetoric becomes nonsense.

Unless one has the ability to discern the origin of a given individuals powers, one has no way to tell if a metahuman is mutant, alien, possessed, or altered human. Appearance alone can't be a factor, because a number of non-mutant metahumans have inhuman appearances, such as Ghost Rider, The Hulk, The Thing and The Human Torch (when his powers are active). And it isn't as if metahumans carry evidence of the source of the powers that they present on demand. So as far as any ordinary human is concerned, any metahuman could be non-human. Since there is no readily distinguishing between most types of metahumans, it makes ZERO sense that people fear one type of metahuman and not another.

If mutants all had physical abnormalities that accompanied their powers (e.g. Beast's disproportionate hands and feet, Angels wings, Nightcrawler's skin tone, tail and eyes), it would make more sense, but that isn't the case. The majority of mutants are "passers" and no one would know the difference until they used their powers. But even then, that wouldn't definitively let a human know that a person is a mutant and not just some person who had a radioactive accident of some sort.

I believe that the X-Men should be put into their own universe so that the idea of human hatred of mutants makes more sense. If mutants are the only metahuman, then humans fearing them make more sense. However, that humans hate mutants, yet love the Fantastic Four or the Avengers, just seems preposterous.

 

[Victarion]

Appearance is really all it takes to turn people against one another.

 

[Arach Knight]

Appearance is really all it takes to turn people against one another.

That is true, and in such a case, Marvel's mutants are as likely to fall victim to many other forms of bigotry, including racism, misogyny, gerontophobia, homophobia etc. But that doesn't address the narrative failing of a world where people hate a specific type of metahuman without being able to readily discern between types of metahumans. Do you know why it is possible for people to hate Blacks or Chinese or Whites? Because there is a simple visual marker (phenotype) that denotes a specific difference.

What visual marker is there that allows a person to tell the difference between Spider-Man and Cyclops? What visual cue is there to distinguish Janet van Dyke from Emma Frost? Either the X-Men should have their own universe, or humans should hate all metahumans. Or, perhaps humans should hate metahumans with obvious non-human features e.g. Beast, Ghostrider, The Hulk, Iron Man (could be seen as an android/cyborg) etc. But since none of those scenarios is the case, it just comes across as ridiculous. That would be like the KKK hating Blacks from California but not Blacks from Kentucky.

 

[BillPardy]

I think it comes down to PR and association. People in this world know that the majority of Muslims aren't terrorist, doesn't stop people from being prejudice towards them.

And even then, when have regular people not been afraid of Ghost Rider? People have often suspected Spider-man as being a mutant, and that has added to his public hate. Fantastic Four is very public and social, the avengers hold press conferences.
But when you see a mutant on the news more often then not they're causing mayhem. Even with mutants doing good, the media is more interested in what sells, which is fear (the whole, crime rate is lower then ever, but news coverage is risen, thing).
Whenever the X-men do make a decent step forward something like AVX, or the first story arc of Uncanny Avengers happens.

 

[Arach Knight]

I think it comes down to PR and association. People in this world know that the majority of Muslims aren't terrorist, doesn't stop people from being prejudice towards them.

But that is the thing, even people who are not Muslim are erroneously associated with anti-islamic hatred. During the height of anti-muslim sentiment in any western country, Hindus, Sikhs, Arabs in general, and Indians are targeted by bigots because all of the aforementioned groups "look like Muslims" to the uninformed. So if real life bigots confuse Hindus and Sikhs for Muslims, then why would non-mutant metahumans not be mistaken for mutants by the bigots in thr Marvel universe?

 

[KevanG]

It's a combination of how the media portrays them, actions of others who are either identified or claim to be the same kind and their own actions of those who are in the public eye.

The media does it usual 'fear everything because **** thinking for yourself and acting like an adult' which shows the whole 'they could be anywhere and murder you when you aren't looking' thing (see Fox News for more details) which really doesn't help. They do the whole fear mongering thing to raise ratings and bring on idiots to talk about how bad it is when they don't understand the situation and inflame things with their ignorance.

The ones who claim to be and get identified as mutants (wether they are or not) tend to be dubbed in the media as terrorists, nut jobs and baby eating psychos. Look at Magneto, the MLF and even the X-Men. They show up where trouble is happening or are the trouble happening and usually don't stop to explain things (until fairly recently anyway, loved the San Fran/Utopia bits for that). Even the mutants which 'come out' and are part of amazing and heroic teams, Beast, Scarlet Witch ect. get abused the second anything happens, or even when nothing happens. Even when people who are beyond reproach like Captain America speak up for mutants and ask for equality, they'll ignore him five minutes later and get the pitchforks. Look at Spider-Man, he's not a mutant and he gets hated on for the same reasons as mutants. No one knows who he is, he's secretive, he doesn't show off like some of the Avengers or FF do and doesn't really make much in the way of public statements, except the Bugle which is a crock.

As for their own actions in the public eye, look at how the X-Men started. A small group of people with amazing powers running around, no one has any idea who they are except by team name and they identify as mutants. When they only show up, destroy things then book it they rarely give any explanation. I loved how they explained it in the Universe X books, that one of the huge reasons that mutants were so feared and hated was that Xavier refused to do any type of exposure, with that and the massive fear mongering happening over the years the public idea was that mutants were scary/evil/baby eating psychos. The Avengers and the FF went public ASAP. They had huge buildings where everyone knew where they were, they sold merchandise and people could see all the crazy crap happening like the Torch flying around or Thor landing into the front yard of the Mansion.

I think that the X-Men should stay with the rest of the MU. They represent the unknown and weird part of the MU. They get blamed for things they have no way of being responsible for but they keep trying. They prove they aren't like that again and again but they keep getting painted with the same brush making them out to be monsters/freaks/baby eating psychos. I think they have as much of a reason to be part of the MU as they ever have as they still represent a group that gets trashed all over the place for the actions of the few that are the crazy baby eating psychos.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Homo sapiens who hate homo superior usually do so for 1 of 3 reasons:

1. Mutants often look different so it's simply appearance based racism.

2. Somebody they know was hurt by a mutant whose powers were out of control or just a battle between mutants so they now hate all mutants. Similar to some American's feelings towards Muslims post-911.

3. The reason you alluded to, humans feel threatened by this "next" step in evolution. Very rarely is a species aware of the emergence of a superior one, and they think they can kill 'em all and halt evolution.

I like that the humans vs mutants struggle hasn't been a big issue in the X-books lately b/c with all the progressive stuff going on in comic books now regarding homosexuals, feminism, etc, it'd seem trite to hate a guy just b/c he can shoot fire out of his eyeballs.

 

[Arach Knight]

I like that the humans vs mutants struggle hasn't been a big issue in the X-books lately b/c with all the progressive stuff going on in comic books now regarding homosexuals, feminism, etc, it'd seem trite to hate a guy just b/c he can shoot fire out of his eyeballs.

But that is what makes the X-Men, the X-Men. It is also the basis of All New X-Men and Uncanny X-Men. Beast is trying to lead the team back to its roots, while Cyclops is trying to save mutant-kind. It is true that today's world is progressive compared to times past, but bigotry has yet to be excised from human culture. I still see value in the X-Men being a collective "other" that battles against the hegemony in order to be included in society.

I still don't feel that said theme plays out well in a universe filled with other metahumans ranging from cyborgs, to supernatural beings to aliens and altered-humans. The same way you feel about the silliness of people hating mutants when so many other progressive topics are getting a pass, sort of tugs on my line of about the ridiculousness of hating mutants in a world that has other metahumans.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

It sounds like a good presentation of the contradictory of emotions some people display.

 

[Arach Knight]

It sounds like a good presentation of the contradictory of emotions some people display.

Hate is indeed a quality of which there is a paucity of reason and good sense. However, my issue isn't the unreasonable nature of hate: it is the fact that people hate mutants without being able to effectively discern a mutant from any other metahuman. If mutants could readily be identified visually or aurally, and people hated them but not other metahumans, then it would indeed be a "presentation of contradictory emotions", as you put it. But since there are defored non-mutant metahumans, and human looking mutants, hatred of mutants only simply comes across as implausible, even as a manifestion of something as illogical as bigotry.

 

[ralphuniverse]

G'day,

I reckon one day Marvel will do just what you suggest but for a completely different reason. They will have the X-Men fight it out with the Inhumans and the X-Men end up in there own universe which will eventually be sold to 20th Century Fox.

Ralph

 

[Arach Knight]

G'day,

I reckon one day Marvel will do just what you suggest but for a completely different reason. They will have the X-Men fight it out with the Inhumans and the X-Men end up in there own universe which will eventually be sold to 20th Century Fox.

Ralph

10/10 for excellent humor

 

[The Overlord]

Considering more then half of the X-Men look like super models, I never understood why they were hated, but the Thing was given a pass.

 

[Arach Knight]

Considering more then half of the X-Men look like super models, I never understood why they were hated, but the Thing was given a pass.

Exactly!

 

[Havok83]

It makes perfect sense. The Avengers and company have better PR.

 

[Arach Knight]

It makes perfect sense. The Avengers and company have better PR.

That is not a very strong rebuttal considering the argument I have made. And better PR doesn't matter. Barack Obama is better educated than the majority of the citizens of this country, has near flawless diction and charisma, yet he is constantly the target of racial slurs and bigotry. So PR has nothing to do with something as silly as loving the Avengers and the Fantastic Four while hating mutants.

 

[Havok83]

That is not a very strong rebuttal considering the argument I have made. And better PR doesn't matter. Barack Obama is better educated than the majority of the citizens of this country, has near flawless diction and charisma, yet he is constantly the target of racial slurs and bigotry. So PR has nothing to do with something as silly as loving the Avengers and the Fantastic Four while hating mutants.

Because there are people that are racist and bigotted that wont change their opinion, no matter what. PR does influence public opinion in the real world though. You have outlets like Fox News that riles things up and puts their own spin on things, fueling fire to get people to hate different groups and exacerbate stuff. And the media controls alot of what we do and dont know and yes the government is in on it.

The Avengers have had a team in place since the very beginning to protect their public image and propel them as heroes. Rarely anything negative is leaked about them. Look at all the crap they did in Axis? That was all covered up in the media so they arent viewed at as less than favorable.

The X-men? They've never really cared about PR until a few years ago when they went to SF and Cyclops hired a PR firm to help them. If you look at their history, Magneto's assault at Cape Citadel, proclaiming to be an evil mutant out to take out humans and secure domination for this new race was one of the earliest public events of mutantkind in the US. That left an image which made it understandable why people would fear. Xavier would have several talks on Washington but he kept the fact that he was a mutant a secret. No one knew about the school and how it was an institution of good to train young mutants until Morrison's run decades later. The X-men did their best to stay out of the public eye. To alot of people, all mutants were the same and the X-men didnt really make an effort to lump themselves out of that category. I remember back after Onslaught when the country thought the X-men got the FF and Avengers killed, the Xmen didnt really do anything to defend themselves and change public opinion. For the most part, the group has just let the media trash and spread negative stuff about them

With the Avengers and FF though, they did. The Avengers are government sanctioned and the government helped in controlling what was said about them. The government helped make it clear who they were and what they were about. And they do have their haters; they're just not as vocal. At the same token, the X-men have support and love; but that seems to be drowned out by negative overtones of the racial seperation

If you dont beleive media makes a difference, then look at Spider-man. He's had his fair share of hate in the public eye thanks to the trashing that J Jonah Jameson has done of him in the Daily Bugle

 

[Shikamaru]

^ Almost none of Spider-Man's bad PR is based on the fact he has powers. It's often for other reasons.

 

[Havok83]

^ Almost none of Spider-Man's bad PR is based on the fact he has powers. It's often for other reasons.

the point I was trying to make was that the media has influenced opinion on superheroes. The Avengers have been shielded by that. The Xmen have not and many times, neither has Spidey.

And IDA about his press in terms of his powers. He was labeled a menace by JJJ bc of what he was doing with said powers. Spidey wouldnt have been this vigilante without the powers. Spidey represented someone who used his powers to act outside the law. It made him standout and that made JJJ hate and grow jealous of him which fueled him to try and turn the public against Spidey.

 

[Arach Knight]

If you dont beleive media makes a difference, then look at Spider-man. He's had his fair share of hate in the public eye thanks to the trashing that J Jonah Jameson has done of him in the Daily Bugle

Spider-Man is hated for wearing a mask ("masked menace") and being a vigilante (the police carried out a conspiracy to frame Spider-Man for this very reason) as well as the fact that the Daily Bugle distorts his public image, so media influence is only a partial factor.

Furthermore, you must remember that Spider-Man started out as a famous, well liked television star. So it isn't as if Spider-Man is a mysterious character that the public has reason to fear because they know nothing about him. He has always been a public figure and his celebrity fell out once he took up being a vigilante. And even if the media were the culprit, no ordinary person in the 616 has the ability to discern which metahumans are mutants and which are not.

It isn't as though every metahuman carries around a card or a sign with their origin story on it. From the perspective of an ordinary human, there are only people with powers and people without powers. Few humans know how different characters have obtained their powers. In fact, this was often a minor theme in Spider-Man comics during the 80s and early 90s, in which some people began to assume that Spider-Man was a mutant (to which Peter vehemently denied). So without the key ability to tell mutants apart from every other metahuman, it makes no sense that only some metahumans are hated.

To take this a step further, Justice League handled the topic quite well in the New 52 reboot. Metahumans popped up and the public reaction was mostly negative, aside from Wonder Woman, whom has a public liaison in the government. Beyond that, the government and civilians alike displayed a great distrust of ANYONE in a costume. They didn't care that Batman wasn't a metahuman, or that Superman was alien. All they knew is that these people seemed to have powers and ran around in costumes. So any person in a costume was assumed to have super powers. And because the public has no ability to tell the difference, all costume wearing people were equally the subject of public disdain, including Batman. Granted, saving the world from Darkseid quickly shifted public opinion in favor of metahumans, but it didn't start out that way. Such an approach makes FAR more sense.

 

[Havok83]

Spider-Man is hated for wearing a mask ("masked menace") and being a vigilante (the police carried out a conspiracy to frame Spider-Man for this very reason) as well as the fact that the Daily Bugle distorts his public image, so media influence is only a partial factor.

Furthermore, you must remember that Spider-Man started out as a famous, well liked television star. So it isn't as if Spider-Man is a mysterious character that the public has reason to fear because they know nothing about him. He has always been a public figure and his celebrity fell out once he took up being a vigilante. And even if the media were the culprit, no ordinary person in the 616 has the ability to discern which metahumans are mutants and which are not.

I made a long thread explaining my thoughts on that but you only focused on Spiderman which was just one example and not the main point of it

 

[Shikamaru]

the point I was trying to make was that the media has influenced opinion on superheroes. The Avengers have been shielded by that. The Xmen have not and many times, neither has Spidey.

And IDA about his press in terms of his powers. He was labeled a menace by JJJ bc of what he was doing with said powers. Spidey wouldnt have been this vigilante without the powers. Spidey represented someone who used his powers to act outside the law. It made him standout and that made JJJ hate and grow jealous of him which fueled him to try and turn the public against Spidey.

Most of Spidey's bad press comes from the fact he's a vigilante (which doesn't necessarily mean he has powers), has his identity hidden and is often blamed for a lot of the crimes he didn't commit and/or has stopped. It's consistent with why the Avengers and the FF are ok, because he himself would be ok once you take out those factors (and we've seen them eliminated before).

With the X-Men, it's not just a matter of bigotry. The X-Men universe as a whole feels inconsistent with the rest of Marvel. The X-Men make claims about the Marvel universe that we barely see pop up anywhere else: that humanity is on the brink of extinction and citizens are being hunted off the streets by giant government robots on a daily basis, and a global operating team like the Avengers seem to have almost no involvement in fixing the problem.

In turn, it also feels like there's often a lack of superhero culture in the X-Men books. Marvel's explanation is that there's only one Captain America/Spider-Man/etc...and they wear distinct bright costumes while mutants are anonymous. If that's the case, why don't more mutants become direct superheroes if the world is inhabited by a consistent culture of costumed heroes? The X-Men are the only ones who do, and even then they still get hate.

That's another thing. How do you tell the difference between a mutant and mutate? Even if they're not all mutants, they would at least be treated like mutants. What's the difference between Spider-Man and Cyclops at first glance?

The X-Men worked great in the Marvel universe back in the Stan Lee era, where shared universes were less fluid and there were far less superheroes running around. Once you establish the distinct Claremont tone, have everything feel so interconnected and have hundreds of non-mutant heroes running around, it becomes harder to swallow.

 

[Arach Knight]

Most of Spidey's bad press comes from the fact he's a vigilante (which doesn't necessarily mean he has powers), has his identity hidden and is often blamed for a lot of the crimes he didn't commit and/or has stopped. It's consistent with why the Avengers and the FF are ok, because he himself would be ok once you take out those factors (and we've seen them eliminated before).

With the X-Men, it's not just a matter of bigotry. The X-Men universe as a whole feels inconsistent with the rest of Marvel. The X-Men make claims about the Marvel universe that we barely see pop up anywhere else: that humanity is on the brink of extinction and citizens are being hunted off the streets by giant government robots on a daily basis, and a global operating team like the Avengers seem to have almost no involvement in fixing the problem.

In turn, it also feels like there's often a lack of superhero culture in the X-Men books. Marvel's explanation is that there's only one Captain America/Spider-Man/etc...and they wear distinct bright costumes while mutants are anonymous. If that's the case, why don't more mutants become direct superheroes if the world is inhabited by a consistent culture of costumed heroes? The X-Men are the only ones who do, and even then they still get hate.

That's another thing. How do you tell the difference between a mutant and mutate? Even if they're not all mutants, they would at least be treated like mutants. What's the difference between Spider-Man and Cyclops at first glance?

The X-Men worked great in the Marvel universe back in the Stan Lee era, where shared universes were less fluid and there were far less superheroes running around. Once you establish the distinct Claremont tone, have everything feel so interconnected and have hundreds of non-mutant heroes running around, it becomes harder to swallow.

Exactly my point, and a few of the same points I made earlier in this thread. The central conflict of the X-Men series is untenable in a shared universe where hundreds of other metahumans run around doing the same sorts of things as the X-Men. Heck, Ben Grimm gets more love than a mutant, and Ben Grimm is hideous. So people hate Jean Grey for being a mutant, even though she is a red headed bombshell, while Ben Grimm gets the okay despite literally being a monster. It doesn't align with the supposed cultural views held by humans in the Marvel universe.

Also, thank you for being objective and level-headed. You and I had a disagreement in the Marvel Studios/Spider-Man announcement thread, but I am glad to see that you left that disagreement to that thread, and came and offered productive commentary in my new thread. I appreciate that sort of maturity, as my willingness to debate over a disagreement does not equate with me disliking any given individual. I admire your tenacity.

 

[Shikamaru]

Exactly my point, and a few of the same points I made earlier in this thread. The central conflict of the X-Men series is untenable in a shared universe where hundreds of other metahumans run around doing the same sorts of things as the X-Men. Heck, Ben Grimm gets more love than a mutant, and Ben Grimm is hideous. So people hate Jean Grey for being a mutant, even though she is a red headed bombshell, while Ben Grimm gets the okay despite literally being a monster. It doesn't align with the supposed cultural views held by humans in the Marvel universe.

Also, thank you for being objective and level-headed. You and I had a disagreement in the Marvel Studios/Spider-Man announcement thread, but I am glad to see that you left that disagreement to that thread, and came and offered productive commentary in my new thread. I appreciate that sort of maturity, as my willingness to debate over a disagreement does not equate with me disliking any given individual. I admire your tenacity.

You're welcome.

I don't let random insignificant discussions on the internet get to me. There were never any hard feelings.

 

[Havok83]

Most of Spidey's bad press comes from the fact he's a vigilante (which doesn't necessarily mean he has powers), has his identity hidden and is often blamed for a lot of the crimes he didn't commit and/or has stopped. It's consistent with why the Avengers and the FF are ok, because he himself would be ok once you take out those factors (and we've seen them eliminated before).

With the X-Men, it's not just a matter of bigotry. The X-Men universe as a whole feels inconsistent with the rest of Marvel. The X-Men make claims about the Marvel universe that we barely see pop up anywhere else: that humanity is on the brink of extinction and citizens are being hunted off the streets by giant government robots on a daily basis, and a global operating team like the Avengers seem to have almost no involvement in fixing the problem.

But Spidey DOES have powers. One doesnt need them to be a vigilante, but he does and he uses that to act outside of the confines of the law. The Avengers do not do that bc they are government sanctioned and therefore do get a pass

The sentinels arent something that were used on a regular basis. Not in present day 616.

Yes the Avengers have ignored all these issues which they were called out on several times over the years. Emma Frost did so during Civil War when Tony Stark came asking for help and this was a huge issue in AvX, which is why the unity squad was created. Within an Avengers book, Cap A acknowledged that the mutant plight was real and that they as a team have failed them for years. Notice though that the team he assembled was for PR. He made sure to pick the pretty passable mutants and put them in the public eye to use the media to try and change perception

In turn, it also feels like there's often a lack of superhero culture in the X-Men books. Marvel's explanation is that there's only one Captain America/Spider-Man/etc...and they wear distinct bright costumes while mutants are anonymous. If that's the case, why don't more mutants become direct superheroes if the world is inhabited by a consistent culture of costumed heroes? The X-Men are the only ones who do, and even then they still get hate.

The Xmen dont put themselves out there to be superheroes which goes back to what I previous said about them trying to stay out of the press and numerous times failing to change perception about themselves. The first time we really saw them get in front of the camera as a group was when the O5 formed X-factor and used the press to portray themselves as mutant hunters while secretly posing as mutant vigilante's known as the X-Terminators. Talk about mixxed messages! They of course didnt realize that Cameron Hodge was using that to worsen mutant-human relations

That's another thing. How do you tell the difference between a mutant and mutate? Even if they're not all mutants, they would at least be treated like mutants. What's the difference between Spider-Man and Cyclops at first glance?

The X-Men worked great in the Marvel universe back in the Stan Lee era, where shared universes were less fluid and there were far less superheroes running around. Once you establish the distinct Claremont tone, have everything feel so interconnected and have hundreds of non-mutant heroes running around, it becomes harder to swallow.

You cant

I personally think its a non-issue. The books worked fine for over 4 decades. I think the problem has been Marvel's incessant need to intermix the groups in the last 5 or so years. I think the X-men worked fine isolated in their own part of the Marvel U, whereas the other groups were in theres, save the occasional crossover