Should X-men split from the Marvel Superhero universe?

[Timstuff]

I have been thinking about this for a long time, and I think that Marvel should re-launch the X-men comic as a separate continuity from 616, and remove the presence of mutants from 616. I know a lot of fans would get really pissed it Marvel did this, but I think it would be for the best. There's simply not enough room in 616 to house the X-men universe, and the attempts to make it work usually result in knuckleheads like Joe Quesada's muckery where he reduced the mutant population to only a few hundred. 616 is stifling X-men as a comic mythology, and X-men is not contributing enough to the 616 mythology to justify all the mess that it causes.

616 is a universe that's already full of superpowered beings, and ultimately that makes the mutant phenomena seem rather unremarkable. If two people with superpowers put on costumes and fight evil, why would one of them be persecuted because he was born with his powers, while the other gets the key to the city because he got his powers from radiation? Wouldn't people be numb to the existance of mutants in a world full of supers, or be prejudiced against all supers regardless of where their powers come from? These are questions that Marvel has continually failed to answer conclusively, and that is another reason why I think X-men would be much more effective if the only people with superpowers in its universe were mutants.

I know that a lot of people are going to disagree with me strongly for a lot of reasons, but I think the biggest reason is that people don't like change. Honestly though, it needs to be looked at from a cost-benefit POV. Does the X-men universe feel like it is a part of the Marvel Superhero universe, or has it been shoehorned into it? Do these two mythologies benefit from being in the same continuity, or are they being mutually hindered by it? I think the toll it takes on storytelling is too high, and I think in the end if Marvel bites the bullet and separates X-men and 616 into two separate worlds, the stories will be better off for it.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I'm going to keep my answer simple.......no.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

No sir

 

[Tron Bonne]

Two of these topics in less than a week's time? Jeez, that's not good. I'll post my post from the similar thread someone started a day or two ago. It's not exactly the same context, but it works for this as well.

Interesting that you use Alan Moore's reasoning, almost to a tee, for why a shared universe is incredible for why you dislike it.

But anyway, I throw in with Moore on the subject. I think what you just said here makes a shared universe pretty incredibly rich and viable for any kind of storytelling. Why you'd you want to take that away is, frankly, kind of boggling to me. It seems to me the problem is that everyone just assumes that everything has to be up everything else's ass in a shared universe. It really doesn't. There's no real reason to castrate one of the most interesting aspects that's come from superhero comics in recent years.

 

[GyLocke]

I always thought X-men should be in a separate universe too. Most of the X-men dynamic doesn't work with thousands of superheroes and villains running around. They're not the only ones, who can stand up to rogue mutants. Yet somehow usually the X-men is the first on the scene when MAgneto wrecks ****, not the F4 or the Avengers. Other supes make mutant hatred seem like an intellectual exercise (yeah, I like that guy, he got his powers from a Super Solider Serum... but that other guy.... goddamn mutie was born this w$ay and he's here to replace us!) Racism doesn't work like that. So it would make sense from a storytelling standpoint (we wouldn't need stuff like "No more mutants" or ignoring Magneto's Manhattan destruction, the mutant question would actually have weight.).
But fans are too attached to the old ways and for some reason like to see the X-men ocassionally beat on the Lizard or play baseball with the Thing or whatever, so it's never gonna happen.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Haha, I always like when people throw out these views of separating canons and always, almost without fail, try to denounce anyone who disagrees as 'being afraid of change' or 'too attached to the old ways' like that really means anything. I guess if those people are too 'afraid of change', it must mean the other side is simply too narrow-minded to see the possibilities of a shared universe or the ability to separate these things by yourself.

 

[lolmogul]

Marvel Universe and X-Men belong together.

 

[Dread]

Actually, I think being apart from the Marvel Universe - while not literally, but often in practice - has led to many problems for the X-Men. They get isolated in their own little universe and things that should effect other titles don't, and things in other titles don't effect the X-Men much, or didn't always used to. In the 90's, the X-Men drove the line so any interaction was usually from their POV, but after the Avengers essentially replaced them in that role by the middle of the last decade, they've become more isolated. Things like the struggle for mutant rights should effect so many other titles. Steve Rogers should see it as the civil rights issue of his time, and so should other heroes who used to be all about that such as Black Panther, Falcon, and others. The Fantastic Four have a vastly powerful mutant son whose fate should be tied into things like the Mutant Registration Act or boogey-men wanting to sic giant robots or cyborgs at all mutants, but instead it's barely a detail on their schedule. In fact, many superheroes should be appalled at the things that are done to mutants, and if the X-Men really are supposed to be heroes, there should be more interaction.

Instead, Marvel usually does this most often with a few characters here and there. Wolverine gets to cross over everywhere. But Beast also gets around too, especially in the 70's and 80's when he was with the Avengers and Defenders more than the X-Men until the launch of X-FACTOR. Storm married Black Panther and thus gets to tour with him, which included a brief tenure on the Fantastic Four. Iceman and Angel were Champions briefly in the 70's, and Colossus was a Defender for two issues. But that isn't the same as general involvement. Plus, it always seems odd that the only enemies the X-Men battle who aren't other mutants are either bigots or aliens. Never straight up villains. The Avengers never care about Apocalypse? The X-Men can never stumble upon, say, Count Nefaria?

The argument for keeping the X-Men separate is the idea that it makes no sense that Marvel citizens hate mutants yet accept other superhumans. This theory is incorrect for a few reasons. One, as anyone who has read stories like CIVIL WAR or even FEAR ITSELF to a degree should know that the public can turn on non-mutant superheroes on a dime. The second reason is that mutants represent something very different from other superhumans. Those who gained powers via a freak science accident are akin to lottery winners or those struck by lightening - rare, but they happen, and it could be anyone. Other species like aliens, gods, and so on are just that - other species. Heroes based around technology are examples of human innovation and the irony is in Marvel, virtually any power can be created, duplicated, or negated with super-tech. Mutants, however, are born with their powers and represent in theory the end of mankind as an evolutionary thing. There is no chance anyone can be a mutant via a freak accident or a suit of armor; you're either a mutant or you're not, and they can look like anyone. While gods and aliens and Atlantians are also other species (who have also all been hated zealously), mutants are closer to man and that makes it more personal. In theory, anyone could be one of the Fantastic Four if they'd been zapped by cosmic rays - that's how the U-Foes came into being, after all. But not anyone can be Cyclops, or Magneto, or Storm. You're either a mutant or not, from birth. And at least in the old days, the more of them who arrived, the more some humans may have felt like throwbacks and acted out of that fear. With mutants numbering less than a Facebook fan-page, that analogy doesn't quite work - unless you see them like the Inhumans, who were also human-like enough to freak people out and were often hated, isolated, and on the run. And are also often jerks obsessed with their own cyclical soap opera, which sometimes involves aliens.

While the X-Men were "on their own" to a degree in the 2000-2003 era "X-MEN EVOLUTION" cartoon, that depended on a POV. It was still a universe that had Captain America as well as Stark Enterprises, along with HYDRA.

No, I don't think the X-Men should be isolated. In fact, keeping their franchise walled off on their own for long stretches of time causes them to seem lethargic. X-Men editors used to be notorious for not allowing other editors to share their characters - Beast was kept out of Avengers comics beyond an occasional cameo throughout the 90's and basically until Brubaker launched SECRET AVENGERS due to that; just a few years earlier, Dan Slott was not allowed to have Beast for his MIGHTY AVENGERS run. Even Bendis, who wanted to put Magneto in his Cabal, was denied. X-Editors are so stingy, THEY DENIED BENDIS. That should speak for itself how isolated the X-Men can be sometimes.

Lord knows I have wanted to see Colossus branch out to another franchise for ages. The X-Men are a franchise that caters to anti-heroes, and he's thus a character who usually is given little to do aside for mope, be boring, or turn evil.

 

[Timstuff]

^ You are basically saying that what I am calling for has already happened, except that Marvel doesn't have the balls to go all the way with it and put the X-men in their own universe separate from 616. They are stuck in limbo, and I think Marvel needs to make up their mind where they stand on it. Also, I don't really agree with your suggestion that getting powers through an accident is like winning the lottery. Peter Parker is just as much of a "freak" as the mutants, but he's not seen that way simply because he wasn't born like that. If people are going to have animosity towards mutants, the realistic thing would be that it spills over into animosity towards everyone with superpowers. But then of course, the uniqueness of mutants being born with their powers disappears, because it becomes little more than an easy explanation for people having powers.

I think that the best solution is to simply have one universe where everyone gets their powers from technology, magic, and science accidents (616) and one where they get their powers from mutations at birth (X-men universe). It would solve pretty much all of the problems that have been brought up, and the only problems it would really create is that there would be a lot of retconning needed, and some of the kids would have to be split up in the divorce (i.e. do the mutants who are more associated with the Avengers stay in 616 and get new explanations for their powers, or go to the X-men universe?). Also, there wouldn't be crossover stories between the X-men and non-mutant superheroes anymore, but honestly I could live quite comfortably without that.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, I think this would be a stupid idea and I agree with Dread. They need to be MORE apart of the MU not less.

Also, f**k the X-Men.

 

[Tron Bonne]

It seems to me that the whole thing that people try to rationalize for this idea is they have a general lack of understanding that just because you have a shared universe doesn't mean everything has to be up everything else's ass. I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to take away the possibilities of any comic book shared universe just because they personally cannot seem to separate the general fiction for the insular fiction. It's just...something I honestly do not understand.

 

[Anubis]

I like to call them people with crippled imaginations.

 

[Dread]

^ You are basically saying that what I am calling for has already happened, except that Marvel doesn't have the balls to go all the way with it and put the X-men in their own universe separate from 616. They are stuck in limbo, and I think Marvel needs to make up their mind where they stand on it. Also, I don't really agree with your suggestion that getting powers through an accident is like winning the lottery. Peter Parker is just as much of a "freak" as the mutants, but he's not seen that way simply because he wasn't born like that. If people are going to have animosity towards mutants, the realistic thing would be that it spills over into animosity towards everyone with superpowers. But then of course, the uniqueness of mutants being born with their powers disappears, because it becomes little more than an easy explanation for people having powers.

As I said in my last post, there is plenty of animosity towards non-mutant super-humans in the Marvel Universe. It came up at the start of the 90's in ACTS OF VENGEANCE, and it was the crux of CIVIL WAR. Spider-Man has hardly been popular for most of his career, with the Daily Bugle against him as well as many citizens and cops. Even the Fantastic Four have had the public turn on them on occasion for flimsy reasons; to note CIVIL WAR again, an angry mob beat Johnny Storm into a coma during that event. I agree that it is WORSE for mutant, but the idea that Marvel's citizenry simply accepts all other metahumans is absurd. Heck, even in FEAR ITSELF, we're seeing the public turn on Thor and Tarene over the whole Worthy mess. And just in HOME FRONT, the citizens of Stamford, CT were literally ready to lynch Speedball in the street. If you want a universe where metahumans are accepted, that's DC.

Peter Parker is less of a "freak" than many mutants, as he can easily pass for a normal human, while he is at least equal in appearance to those who "pass". I think Magneto mistook him for a mutant once. The point still stands that while the public in general is hesitant to accept many heroes, there is a profound difference between someone who happened to benefit from a freak accident and someone born that way. Under the right circumstances, anyone could be a mutate. Not everyone could be a mutant.

I think that the best solution is to simply have one universe where everyone gets their powers from technology, magic, and science accidents (616) and one where they get their powers from mutations at birth (X-men universe). It would solve pretty much all of the problems that have been brought up, and the only problems it would really create is that there would be a lot of retconning needed, and some of the kids would have to be split up in the divorce (i.e. do the mutants who are more associated with the Avengers stay in 616 and get new explanations for their powers, or go to the X-men universe?). Also, there wouldn't be crossover stories between the X-men and non-mutant superheroes anymore, but honestly I could live quite comfortably without that.

I think the solution is some tighter editing so that the issues that effect mutants sometimes spill over into other books, and other issues spill into their own. That isn't to say they have to be everywhere, but...it seems to be silly to have Beast and Wolverine on Avengers teams while the Avengers don't seem to care when cyborg bigots storm Utopia looking for blood. Isolating the X-Men has caused a lot of problems and I think more could be done to include them in more affairs. Or at least have some ramifications and subplots carry over, such as the examples I cited in my past post.

Marvel doesn't need to do reality warps like DC has a fetish for. They just need some better editorial vision and creative, progressive ideas.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, it's the b***h way out.

Now Robin's got feathers. The Manhunter was never in the league and was replaced as a founder by f**kin' Cyborg, and Superman wears armor.

That restart boos**t is a sin!

 

[Dread]

Yeah, it's the b***h way out.

Now Robin's got feathers. The Manhunter was never in the league and was replaced as a founder by f**kin' Cyborg, and Superman wears armor.

That restart boos**t is a sin!

DC's confusing continuity thanks to their semi-frequent reboots or relaunches or whatever are one of many reasons why I don't usually read much of 'em.

I mean, if I wanted bad 90's comics, I'd just dive for YOUNGBLOOD comics in the quarter bin.

 

[Anubis]

Especially these little half ass reboots where they keep some of the old continuity, and do away with the rest, (Not realizing that in a shared universe, if you get rid of one thing, it has a domino effect on everything else.)you're just gonna muck it up worse than it was before.

Add in the Wildstorm Universe getting crammed in there and a shortened timeline and it's no wonder so many people are confused.

 

[The Apocalypse]

Actually, I think being apart from the Marvel Universe - while not literally, but often in practice - has led to many problems for the X-Men. They get isolated in their own little universe and things that should effect other titles don't, and things in other titles don't effect the X-Men much, or didn't always used to. In the 90's, the X-Men drove the line so any interaction was usually from their POV, but after the Avengers essentially replaced them in that role by the middle of the last decade, they've become more isolated. Things like the struggle for mutant rights should effect so many other titles. Steve Rogers should see it as the civil rights issue of his time, and so should other heroes who used to be all about that such as Black Panther, Falcon, and others. The Fantastic Four have a vastly powerful mutant son whose fate should be tied into things like the Mutant Registration Act or boogey-men wanting to sic giant robots or cyborgs at all mutants, but instead it's barely a detail on their schedule. In fact, many superheroes should be appalled at the things that are done to mutants, and if the X-Men really are supposed to be heroes, there should be more interaction.

Instead, Marvel usually does this most often with a few characters here and there. Wolverine gets to cross over everywhere. But Beast also gets around too, especially in the 70's and 80's when he was with the Avengers and Defenders more than the X-Men until the launch of X-FACTOR. Storm married Black Panther and thus gets to tour with him, which included a brief tenure on the Fantastic Four. Iceman and Angel were Champions briefly in the 70's, and Colossus was a Defender for two issues. But that isn't the same as general involvement. Plus, it always seems odd that the only enemies the X-Men battle who aren't other mutants are either bigots or aliens. Never straight up villains. The Avengers never care about Apocalypse? The X-Men can never stumble upon, say, Count Nefaria?

The argument for keeping the X-Men separate is the idea that it makes no sense that Marvel citizens hate mutants yet accept other superhumans. This theory is incorrect for a few reasons. One, as anyone who has read stories like CIVIL WAR or even FEAR ITSELF to a degree should know that the public can turn on non-mutant superheroes on a dime. The second reason is that mutants represent something very different from other superhumans. Those who gained powers via a freak science accident are akin to lottery winners or those struck by lightening - rare, but they happen, and it could be anyone. Other species like aliens, gods, and so on are just that - other species. Heroes based around technology are examples of human innovation and the irony is in Marvel, virtually any power can be created, duplicated, or negated with super-tech. Mutants, however, are born with their powers and represent in theory the end of mankind as an evolutionary thing. There is no chance anyone can be a mutant via a freak accident or a suit of armor; you're either a mutant or you're not, and they can look like anyone. While gods and aliens and Atlantians are also other species (who have also all been hated zealously), mutants are closer to man and that makes it more personal. In theory, anyone could be one of the Fantastic Four if they'd been zapped by cosmic rays - that's how the U-Foes came into being, after all. But not anyone can be Cyclops, or Magneto, or Storm. You're either a mutant or not, from birth. And at least in the old days, the more of them who arrived, the more some humans may have felt like throwbacks and acted out of that fear. With mutants numbering less than a Facebook fan-page, that analogy doesn't quite work - unless you see them like the Inhumans, who were also human-like enough to freak people out and were often hated, isolated, and on the run. And are also often jerks obsessed with their own cyclical soap opera, which sometimes involves aliens.

While the X-Men were "on their own" to a degree in the 2000-2003 era "X-MEN EVOLUTION" cartoon, that depended on a POV. It was still a universe that had Captain America as well as Stark Enterprises, along with HYDRA.

No, I don't think the X-Men should be isolated. In fact, keeping their franchise walled off on their own for long stretches of time causes them to seem lethargic. X-Men editors used to be notorious for not allowing other editors to share their characters - Beast was kept out of Avengers comics beyond an occasional cameo throughout the 90's and basically until Brubaker launched SECRET AVENGERS due to that; just a few years earlier, Dan Slott was not allowed to have Beast for his MIGHTY AVENGERS run. Even Bendis, who wanted to put Magneto in his Cabal, was denied. X-Editors are so stingy, THEY DENIED BENDIS. That should speak for itself how isolated the X-Men can be sometimes.

Lord knows I have wanted to see Colossus branch out to another franchise for ages. The X-Men are a franchise that caters to anti-heroes, and he's thus a character who usually is given little to do aside for mope, be boring, or turn evil.

Always love reading what you have to say dude.

I've heard the X-Men are going to be more involved in the 616 universe though. So I don't think a split is going to happen. I wouldn't want to see an official split anyway.

 

[Timstuff]

It seems to me that the whole thing that people try to rationalize for this idea is they have a general lack of understanding that just because you have a shared universe doesn't mean everything has to be up everything else's ass. I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to take away the possibilities of any comic book shared universe just because they personally cannot seem to separate the general fiction for the insular fiction. It's just...something I honestly do not understand.

If Warner Bros. had bought Marvel and not Disney, would we want to see Marvel and DC share the same universe? I don't think so. It would open up a lot of interesting story opportunities, but it would also make a huge mess of things, not unlike how X-men existing in 616 has led to some messy problems at Marvel.

Having possibilities for team up stories is not always a good enough reason to put things in a shared universe, and in Marvel's case it has backfired because now there are "missing" parts of the Marvel mythology like Conan and Godzilla. Marvel originally was putting all of their publications into 616, even the ones they didn't have permanent ownership, and now you have a lot of messy backstory involving the Hyborian Age and Godzilla that Marvel won't retcon out but they can't really make direct reference to.

I think using those two examples, not everything fits into a shared continuity. A lot of stuff does-- heck, I'd go so far as to say most stuff does-- but it simply can't be expected to work with every property. I think the reason why Marvel is so shy about more effectively integrating X-men's mythology into the overall events of 616 is because it just simply doesn't work, or they would have done it by now. Removing the X-men from 616 would be the exact opposite direction of that, but it's the direction Marvel has been moving in anyway. Unfortunately, while this means the Mutant dilemma no longer stumbles uncomfortably into the pages of comics where it wouldn't really fit, it also means that X-men has been backed into a corner where the property can no longer grow. It needs a clean slate where it can grow and flourish, and that's not going to happen so long as Marvel grips onto the hope that they can work things out between X-men and 616.

 

[Thundercrack85]

A shared universe isn't necessarily a bad thing. But when it is as overpopulated as Marvel's, it can be. I've always found it jarring that the X-Men coexist with other people who have superpowers, but they are always treated differently. Still, it's a bit late to change that now.

 

[Tron Bonne]

If Warner Bros. had bought Marvel and not Disney, would we want to see Marvel and DC share the same universe? I don't think so. It would open up a lot of interesting story opportunities, but it would also make a huge mess of things, not unlike how X-men existing in 616 has led to some messy problems at Marvel.

Well, that's never really going to happen, plus it's a heavily flawed analogy to begin with.

Having possibilities for team up stories is not always a good enough reason to put things in a shared universe, and in Marvel's case it has backfired because now there are "missing" parts of the Marvel mythology like Conan and Godzilla. Marvel originally was putting all of their publications into 616, even the ones they didn't have permanent ownership, and now you have a lot of messy backstory involving the Hyborian Age and Godzilla that Marvel won't retcon out but they can't really make direct reference to.

I am aware of this, but really, who cares? It's not like those are really all those major deals or anything. Besides, this whole point really doesn't have anything to do with these things 'fitting' in the 616. They fit as much as anything else did, but it's a licensing thing.

I think using those two examples, not everything fits into a shared continuity. A lot of stuff does-- heck, I'd go so far as to say most stuff does-- but it simply can't be expected to work with every property. I think the reason why Marvel is so shy about more effectively integrating X-men's mythology into the overall events of 616 is because it just simply doesn't work, or they would have done it by now. Removing the X-men from 616 would be the exact opposite direction of that, but it's the direction Marvel has been moving in anyway. Unfortunately, while this means the Mutant dilemma no longer stumbles uncomfortably into the pages of comics where it wouldn't really fit, it also means that X-men has been backed into a corner where the property can no longer grow. It needs a clean slate where it can grow and flourish, and that's not going to happen so long as Marvel grips onto the hope that they can work things out between X-men and 616.

No, they don't. All you need to do is separate the general fiction from the insular fiction, like I said. There's really no reason you can't have points where the X-Men crossover into other pieces of the MU, and still have relatively disconnected stories that use that concept separately like Grant Morrison's New X-Men. It's up to you, the reader, to separate that, and there's just no reason in the world why you can't.

 

[storyteller]

I'm sorry but no.

 

[Havok83]

Sorry but thats an awful idea

 

[Lord]

I like the x-men movies as a separate universe from the marvel cinematic universe, that's why i'm okay with 20th century fox having it but the marvel comics? no

 

[SpideyForPrez]

They shouldn't separate the X-men from the MU.

However, if they were to start a new X-Men title set in a separate universe, similar to the Ultimate universe and the X-men film universe. That could be interesting if done right. I haven't been interested in the X-Men comics for years, but if they did something like that I might try it out.

 

[Ocramed]

I think people around here are forgetting that, back in the day, all the superheroes were seen with a degree of skepticism. Only when they have proved themselves in public did they get public support. In other words, the X-Men have yet to get a good PR rep.

DSW