Hating Mutants Makes No Sense: The X-Men Should Have a Separate Universe

[mjdiddy1]

I love the conversation/argument that has been presented here. As it stands I'm in agreement with the argument and would like to add to it. How can you explain the mutants that were included as Avengers (Pre-Uncanny Avengers/AvX) and I'll exclude Beast because of the physical reasons. But why were Avengers/mutants more accepted like Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Justice, or Firestar since Marvel homo sapiens can't tell if the characters are actual mutants or accidents. Is this the same as 'well this African American or this Muslim is more acceptable than others' or is it truly a flaw in Marvel's approach from the beginning of X-Men. In present day Marvel, there still is fear of Mutants but it is less prominent then it was in the early 60's thru to the early 90's. Great thread.

 

[Havok83]

I love the conversation/argument that has been presented here. As it stands I'm in agreement with the argument and would like to add to it. How can you explain the mutants that were included as Avengers (Pre-Uncanny Avengers/AvX) and I'll exclude Beast because of the physical reasons. But why were Avengers/mutants more accepted like Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Justice, or Firestar since Marvel homo sapiens can't tell if the characters are actual mutants or accidents. Is this the same as 'well this African American or this Muslim is more acceptable than others' or is it truly a flaw in Marvel's approach from the beginning of X-Men. In present day Marvel, there still is fear of Mutants but it is less prominent then it was in the early 60's thru to the early 90's. Great thread.

Those characters dont really claim their mutant heritage with the exception of Quicksilver (who has faced bigotry for it). Scarlet Witch, especially has been criticized over the years for assimiliating and ignoring where she came from. Im pretty sure most dont know that these characters are in fact mutants.

 

[Arach Knight]

The sentinels arent something that were used on a

You underestimate the effects of the sentinels. Remember, sentinels are largely an American initiative and operate in the U.S. The sentinels have a kill tally of 16,521,618 (X-Force #3 2008). For comparison, that would be like having a government sanctioned execution of half of the Black population of the United States. That figure is also half the population of England. Sentinels going a murder spree also makes no sense. Why would the superhero community be so silent about genocide in their own country? It makes the least sense that Captain America would sit back and allow it to happen.

 

[Havok83]

You underestimate the effects of the sentinels. Remember, sentinels are largely an American initiative and operate in the U.S. The sentinels have a kill tally of 16,521,618 (X-Force #3 2008). For comparison, that would be like having a government sanctioned execution of half of the Black population of the United States. That figure is also half the population of England. Sentinels going a murder spree also makes no sense. Why would the superhero community be so silent about genocide in their own country? It makes the least sense that Captain America would sit back and allow it to happen.

No, you overestimate them. The stuff you talk about never happened. Sentinels werent being used by the government to round up and kill mutants on a regular basis. The 16+ million mutants tallied was mass genocide on ONE day. Read New X-men. That was an attack by another mutant, Cassandra Nova, on Genosha, a mutant nation off the coast of Africa, NOT the US. The amount of mutants killed on American soil by any government initiative is miniscule. The government has not sanctioned them for use like that in present day 616. Project Wideawake is the closest that ever came to happening but that was shortlived (and that was bc of another mutant, Sebastian Shaw). Go back in the history of the MU and you will not find any examples of the US government using sentinels to hunt down mutants, again outside of Wideawake

 

[OutcryX]

apparently the hate isn't just for mutants or the X-Men anymore....the Inhumans are getting a bit of it as well now

 

[Arach Knight]

No, you overestimate them. The stuff you talk about never happened. Sentinels werent being used by the government to round up and kill mutants on a regular basis. The 16+ million mutants tallied was mass genocide on ONE day. Read New X-men. That was an attack by another mutant, Cassandra Nova, on Genosha, a mutant nation off the coast of Africa, NOT the US. The amount of mutants killed on American soil by any government initiative is miniscule. The government has not sanctioned them for use like that in present day 616. Project Wideawake is the closest that ever came to happening but that was shortlived (and that was bc of another mutant, Sebastian Shaw). Go back in the history of the MU and you will not find any examples of the US government using sentinels to hunt down mutants, again outside of Wideawake

New X-Men is from like fifteen years ago. I'm talking about X-Men books that are a bit more current. Go read X-Force # 3 Vol 3. Bastion gives Bolivar credit for being responsible for the death of ~16 million mutants, based on the fact that the Sentinels have killed that many mutants and the fact that Trask is the inventor of the Sentinels. This is right before Trask kills himself...again. The ultimate point is that government policies that support genocidal actions, a lack of intervention from other metahumans, and the general presence of non-mutant metahumans, all contributes to the weakness of a narrative based on hating mutants only, but no other metahuman.

 

[Havok83]

New X-Men is from like fifteen years ago. I'm talking about X-Men books that are a bit more current. Go read X-Force # 3 Vol 3. Bastion gives Bolivar credit for being responsible for the death of ~16 million mutants, based on the fact that the Sentinels have killed that many mutants and the fact that Trask is the inventor of the Sentinels. This is right before Trask kills himself...again. The ultimate point is that government policies that support genocidal actions, a lack of intervention from other metahumans, and the general presence of non-mutant metahumans, all contributes to the weakness of a narrative based on hating mutants only, but no other metahuman.

Does it matter when the book came out? Canon is canon and that event was not retconned. X-force vol 3 came out a few years after New Xmen and those 16 million mutants were accounted for by the Genosha Genocide. The 16 million mutants killed on Genosha form the backdrop for why X-force was created. That massacre set the stage for the tone in the book and you should probably read it again because it was constantly referenced. He is credited bc he is the original creator. That doesnt discredit what I wrote. Your "ultimate point" is nonexistant bc again there wasn't a governement policy to support genocidal actions in the US. The sentinels were never sancationed by the US outside of the shortlived Project Wideawake. The notion that mutants were under constant threat with millions being hunted and killed in the US by government run sentinels is ridiculous and inaccurate for what was actually written in the books in 616

 

[Doctor13]

I really see no reason for mutants to be in their own universe at all. Bigotry makes little sense to begin with, and in Marvel who's in favor in the public eye can shift in the blink of an eye.

Then there's is the idea that to the public of the Marvel U., mutants are eternally equated with the X-Men. And when the X-Men preach and fight for tolerance and peace then allow a mutant terrorist like Magneto on their team not once but several times, it's easy to see how a lot of the public could feel fear towards them.

Then there's the idea that literally any hero can be hated in Marvel for ludicrous reasons, deserved or not. And some people can skate by for purely cosmetic reasons. I mean, it was public knowledge for a while that Quicksilver(until recently, of course) was a mutant, and he did experience prejudice. But since he was an Avenger, he gets a bit of a pass, a stamp of approval. Yeah, he worked with Magneto, but also disavowed him at several points.

Then there's Beast, of course, a founding X-Man who's been an Avenger and X-Man and has faced the worst and best of humanity, a lot of that based on his looks, regardless of of him being a mutant.

However, in the end, hating an entire group of people and giving others a free pass never really makes sense, fiction or not.

 

[C. Lee]

A troll has been banned.

 

[Arach Knight]

A troll has been banned.

Thank you.

 

[Arach Knight]

I really see no reason for mutants to be in their own universe at all. Bigotry makes little sense to begin with, and in Marvel who's in favor in the public eye can shift in the blink of an eye.

Then there's is the idea that to the public of the Marvel U., mutants are eternally equated with the X-Men. And when the X-Men preach and fight for tolerance and peace then allow a mutant terrorist like Magneto on their team not once but several times, it's easy to see how a lot of the public could feel fear towards them.

See, that is the problem. What you have stated here is true. Mutants are often associated with the public image of the X-Men and Magneto, which ia unfavorable on both ends. And I would be fine with that if not for the inconsistency, which is my chief grievance across the board. Later writers have attempted to address this issue (particularly Whedon and Ellis), but their respective tenures have not resulted in any follow through on the part of subsequent writers. Though, I do concede that this is likely because of Cyclops' current public image and the resultant backlash against the mutant community.

 

[BoredGuy]

Many people in this country still blindly hate all muslims, even despite the muslim groups in America who are trying to do good things and improve the religion's reputation. People associate the whole religion with Al Queda, much like people in the 616 associate all of mutantdom with Magneto

so the same way people can hate on one group of fairy-tale believers while being totally cool with the other two is, basically, the same principle as the whole mutants-in-the-616 thing

Magneto=Bin Laden, X-Men=Good Muslims, Inhumans=Jews, Avengers=Christians, and then I guess GOTG=Buddhists and FF=Scientologists, lol

 

[Chance Jackson]

I think a part of it is that new mutants have poor, non-existent control over there powers and that tends to have enormously bad consequences for normal humans and their property where as other metahumans aren't necessarily associated with gaining uncontrollable power during puberty.

Good mutant teams are generally relegated to fighting bad mutants and anti mutant humans, where as other metahumans are fighting nazis, regular crime, aliens etc

 

[Arach Knight]

Many people in this country still blindly hate all muslims, even despite the muslim groups in America who are trying to do good things and improve the religion's reputation. People associate the whole religion with Al Queda, much like people in the 616 associate all of mutantdom with Magneto

so the same way people can hate on one group of fairy-tale believers while being totally cool with the other two is, basically, the same principle as the whole mutants-in-the-616 thing

Magneto=Bin Laden, X-Men=Good Muslims, Inhumans=Jews, Avengers=Christians, and then I guess GOTG=Buddhists and FF=Scientologists, lol

The example of islamophobia has already been addressed by previous posters, and inherently works against the argument in question. When anti-Muslim hysteria was at an all time high, shortly after 9/11, many reports came in about attacks on Hindus and Sikhs whom were mistaken for being Arab Muslims because they are similarly dark skinned and turban wearing.

The significance? The average bigot was largely incapable of discerning the difference between an Arab Muslim, a Hindu and a Sikh: all they could notice were turbans and dark skin, which were enough to associate those superficial elements with one particular faith system. So if real life bigots attack any dark skinned individaul with a turban, confusing them for being Arab Muslims, why would humans in the 616 give a pass to one group of metahumans, but not to another? They should, based on the aforementioned evidence, respond similarly and hate all super powered being because they can easily be confused for being mutants.

 

[BoredGuy]

well confusion could happen

but there are some noticeable differences visually between the different super groups
The X-men, more than any other group, tend to be strange looking, with their powers manifesting visually
Non-mutants who share that trait have experienced some level of hatred (tho not shown to be as often or as heated as the mutants face) Hulk, Thing, Man-thing, Groot and Rocket, they have all been called creatures or monsters at one point or another
Plus the human looking X-men all wear giant X's, that identify them even if they don't look freakish

And that's all not to mention the distrust of other teams that have popped up over the years, even including the Avengers. It's only their long years of very visible public service that has endeared them to the public. The MCU appears to be touching on this pretty directly in AoU, while the 616 is slowly catching up.

I'm not saying it's a perfect metaphor by any stretch, but your rebuttal rebutts itself as well.... rebuttal-ception!

 

[Arach Knight]

but there are some noticeable differences visually between the different super groups
The X-men, more than any other group, tend to be strange looking, with their powers manifesting visually
Non-mutants who share that trait have experienced some level of hatred (tho not shown to be as often or as heated as the mutants face) Hulk, Thing, Man-thing, Groot and Rocket, they have all been called creatures or monsters at one point or another
Plus the human looking X-men all wear giant X's, that identify them even if they don't look freakish

These claims are not entirely accurate. To begin with, the X-Men are not representativie of the entire population. The X-Men books have made it quite clear over the years that even mutants trying to lead quiet lives get singled out and attacked by bigots. So while it is true that the X-Men draw attention to themselves, this is not true for other mutants. In fact, Kitty Pryde recently gave an awesome speech in All New X-Men about why she chooses not to be a "passer" even though no one would be able to tell she is a mutant if she never said so. So not all mutants appear to be freakish, yet mutants are still hated and hunted.

Now you do have a point about the more creature-esque Marvel characters getting the short end of the stick. When the Thing used to travel the world with Lock-Jaw, he caught a lot of fear and loathing (no pun intended). But not all freaky looking Marvel characters are subject to such an experience. She-Hulk for instance gets a pass. And even when freaky characters are hated, it doesn't explain why mutants with non-physical mutations are also hated. If there is a mutant with a super sonic scream, there is no telling them apart from a guy or girl who can project hand beams because of a science related accident.

 

[BoredGuy]

that's true

but if someone runs into a random person with powers on the street I could still see them being afraid, regardless of the source of the powers, hence why the Inhumans are feeling the heat now too

Basically, it may just come down to people not hating Captain America, Thor, Iron Man and the other Avengers they know and have seen do good things for years, and then by extension, people trust the other, newer Avengers by proxy

Its why I really liked the Utopia era with Cyke getting outside PR advice, because average people should know about all the good the x-men have done, but much like our world, I'm sure the media gins up a lot of the fear and anger and distorts their good deeds to fit a narrative. Granted, she ended up being Sinister in disguise, but with a proper publicist the X-men could maybe start to turn it around.

In conclusion, blame the media

 

[BarryAllen]

I would play up the mutants as little bit more 'unconventional' in the way they look and act to reinforce the point that they're different, yet still superheroes. In America, people are treated differently just because of their skin color. The same can apply for X-men.

Here's an example:
In Hollywood, Samuel L Jackson is treated with respect.
In the comics, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are able to 'crossover' and become Avengers.
In our society, there is still many examples of racial profiling and bigotry.
In the comics, mutants are still seen as freaks, and receive hate.

 

[Arach Knight]

I would play up the mutants as little bit more 'unconventional' in the way they look and act to reinforce the point that they're different, yet still superheroes. In America, people are treated differently just because of their skin color. The same can apply for X-men.

Here's an example:
In Hollywood, Samuel L Jackson is treated with respect.
In the comics, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are able to 'crossover' and become Avengers.
In our society, there is still many examples of racial profiling and bigotry.
In the comics, mutants are still seen as freaks, and receive hate.

That would be a more effective means of addressing the problem. Having mutants that look more "mutant" would really drive the point home that they aren't different. It is odd that the Inhumans do a better job of this, even though the Inhumans are pretty much ersatz mutants. Karnak, Gorgon, Triton and Lockjaw are all visibly not like other humanoids and mammals on the planet. I would like it if mutants had that same level of diversity aside from Angel, Beast and a few of the Morlocks.

 

[NicoSuave]

Rumor has it that Marvel may give the X-Men franchise their own comic universe that's separate from the rest of the Marvelverse, after the events of Secret Wars.

 

[Arach Knight]

Rumor has it that Marvel may give the X-Men franchise their own comic universe that's separate from the rest of the Marvelverse, after the events of Secret Wars.

I almost thought this was an April Fools prank until I researched your claim. It is about time that someone at Marvel realized the need for a separate universe. I love that it will intersect with the Inhumans...assuming that the rumor is true.

 

[Sian]

I'm sorry that the X movies belong to a different studio than the Avengers - I would have loved to see Wolverine versus the Winter Soldier, Cyclops versus Captain America, Storm take on Thor, Rogue absorb the Hulk on the big screen.

 

[DareDemon]

Rumor has it that Marvel may give the X-Men franchise their own comic universe that's separate from the rest of the Marvelverse, after the events of Secret Wars.

I'm pretty excited by this, I think it presents a lot of opportunities if it does happen. I will definitely miss mutants in the main universe, but it could definitely be cool.

HOW would it happen though? I'm not sure what the best way to do this is. Scarlet Witch using her magic?

 

[Mad Ones]

Ugh. If the split does happen, the Avengers can keep Wanda.

 

[def28]

Rumor has it that Marvel may give the X-Men franchise their own comic universe that's separate from the rest of the Marvelverse, after the events of Secret Wars.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/a...tron-twist-the-x-mens-post-secret-wars-future

No, we’re not segregating the X-Men into their own universe. The X-Men are an integral part of the Marvel Universe. They play a big role in “Secret Wars,” and those mutants that survive the event will be crucial building blocks for the Marvel Universe moving forward.

I’ll bet I just said something that’s going to fuel the conspiracy theorists, but whatever…