HBO Sci-Fi Series ‘’The Nevers’’

[Dr.]

I was just specifying male characters in general. Ford wasn't a regular character but he was an ally to Buffy and she was forced to kill him after he turned.

Fair to say, Ford was a tragic figure. But even before he turned vampire, his agenda was in opposition to Buffy’s. So not quite a true ally. IMO.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Name one.

To be sure, there were numerous male villains who were killed (usually by Buffy, herself). And there were lots of Sunnydale victims-of-the week of either sex. But name a regular/semi-regular male ally of Buffy who’d be analogous to Kendra, Joyce, Tara or Anya. Maybe there were one or two. But I don’t recall any... (at least, none that weren’t resurrected).

There was 1. His name was Robyn. Took 7 seasons for them to gain a male ally.

 

[flickchick85]

As annoyed as I am about Whedon going back to THAT same well yet again, I can’t be be mad at this episode because of that glorious water fight. Holy s***, that was good.

 

[Dr.]

There was 1. His name was Robyn. Took 7 seasons for them to gain a male ally.

Well, yes. Also Giles, Xander, Angel and Andrew (sort of). But none of them died (permanently). I suppose Spike would count; he was an ally and he did croak (though resurrected in different series). Perhaps Wesley? (though he died in a different series).

...

 

[Fincher]

Well, yes. Also Giles, Xander, Angel and Andrew (sort of). But none of them died (permanently). I suppose Spike would count; he was an ally and he did croak (though resurrected in different series). Perhaps Wesley? (though he died in a different series).

...

Oz.

 

[Dr.]

Oz.

Ah! Definitely (for a time) a member of the Scooby Gang. But, likewise, never died.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

I like the show, characters are great, steampunk is full throttle. Too bad the thread is polluted with "Whedon stuff". I know, it's part of the deal, sometimes I will read posts I would have preferred not to (not because of the post opinion but the subject).
Me, I'm just a watcher who wants to be taken into the show world and it lessens my entertainment when I come to this thread to read what people have to say about the guy (I'm aware of it).
I also avoid to be kept informed on Hollywood scandals when I can for the same reason, can't really avoid it when you like movies and TV show though.
Call me shallow but as Wolverine said in The Prestige: the audience just want to be fooled even for a second...then again, scandals are everywhere now.

Well, looks like we have a kind of Doctor Frankenstein making cyborg zombies !

 

[obredaan]

I like the show, characters are great, steampunk is full throttle. Too bad the thread is polluted with "Whedon stuff". I know, it's part of the deal, sometimes I will read posts I would have preferred not to (not because of the post opinion but the subject).
Me, I'm just a watcher who wants to be taken into the show world and it lessens my entertainment when I come to this thread to read what people have to say about the guy (I'm aware of it).
I also avoid to be kept informed on Hollywood scandals when I can for the same reason, can't really avoid it when you like movies and TV show though.
Call me shallow but as Wolverine said in The Prestige: the audience just want to be fooled even for a second...then again, scandals are everywhere now.

Well, looks like we have a kind of Doctor Frankenstein making cyborg zombies !

The issues with Whedon are still fresh so its going to be front and center in most discussions surrounding his work. I get the guy is a jerk but he's not a criminal or even in the same category as a Woody Allen or even a Bryan Singer. So I can't get all worked up over him being a jerky boss considering there a far worse than him still working in Hollywood.

 

[Sithborg]

I like the show, characters are great, steampunk is full throttle. Too bad the thread is polluted with "Whedon stuff". I know, it's part of the deal, sometimes I will read posts I would have preferred not to (not because of the post opinion but the subject).
Me, I'm just a watcher who wants to be taken into the show world and it lessens my entertainment when I come to this thread to read what people have to say about the guy (I'm aware of it).
I also avoid to be kept informed on Hollywood scandals when I can for the same reason, can't really avoid it when you like movies and TV show though.
Call me shallow but as Wolverine said in The Prestige: the audience just want to be fooled even for a second...then again, scandals are everywhere now.

Well, looks like we have a kind of Doctor Frankenstein making cyborg zombies !

There is no ethical consumerism. I do not judge someone on whether they can ignore a creator's bull**** or not. Everyone's lines are different.

That said, the discussion isn't so much about Whedon the person, but the things that just keep on cropping up in his works. I love this episode. The opening sequence was great, if a bit whedonesque in dialogue. Some great character moments with Monday and Dr. Cousins. The water fight is out right amazing.

Spoiler

I don't think Mary's death in itself is a problem. But combined with the upping of HBO nudity, the back stories of Lucy Best and the kidnapper, it just felt like Mary's death had that bit of Whedon cruelty that just creeps into his work, especially towards women. I mean, its a miracle Desiree seems to be a positive character, as many don't exactly like treating sex workers well

Commendations to the writers for making the last person I expected gay.

 

[Dr.]

...the discussion isn't so much about Whedon the person, but the things that just keep on cropping up in his works. I love this episode. The opening sequence was great, if a bit whedonesque in dialogue. Some great character moments with Monday and Dr. Cousins. The water fight is out right amazing.

I think most commenters in this thread judge the episodes based on intrinsic merit (or lack thereof). I.e., they separate the creation from the creator.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Well, yes. Also Giles, Xander, Angel and Andrew (sort of). But none of them died (permanently). I suppose Spike would count; he was an ally and he did croak (though resurrected in different series). Perhaps Wesley? (though he died in a different series).

...

Those were all series regulars though. Wes was around for a very short time and had no major impact on Buffy.

Ah! Definitely (for a time) a member of the Scooby Gang. But, likewise, never died.

He also left of his own accord.

 

[Holy Slapper]

I'm getting more and more pissed of at Whedon with each new episode. Without his name being attached to this, it would be getting a lot more recognition, that it so far thoroughly deserves. The water fight was amazingly unique and unexpected. And the ending was just tragic and beautiful.

Just in comparison to another HBO show (yes, I know it's BBC as well) but this is a far more interesting show than His Dark Materials.

Also, Laura Donnelly for Moira MacTaggert.

 

[Dr.]

Those were all series regulars though. Wes was around for a very short time and had no major impact on Buffy.
...
He also left of his own accord.

Not to belabor the point (too late ) but… My original trivia question was this: Over Buffy’s run, are there any male equivalents to Kendra, Joyce, Tara and Anya? That is, a regular (or semi-regular) character who a) was a notable ally to Buffy and b) didn’t survive to the end of the series.

Actually… after racking my brain, I did come up with a candidate who meets both criteria: Larry. Appearing in several episodes, Larry was the jock/bully who reforms after coming out as gay. And though he was never really a Scooby, Larry was an ally (kinda) who died heroically in the big “Graduation Day” battle.

Of course, this might make Whedon guilty of another pop culture crime — the “bury your gays” trope. But that’s a different trivia question.

 

[henzINNIT]

Not to belabor the point (too late ) but… My original trivia question was this: Over Buffy’s run, are there any male equivalents to Kendra, Joyce, Tara and Anya? That is, a regular (or semi-regular) character who a) was a notable ally to Buffy and b) didn’t survive to the end of the series.

Actually… after racking my brain, I did come up with a candidate who meets both criteria: Larry. Appearing in several episodes, Larry was the jock/bully who reforms after coming out as gay. And though he was never really a Scooby, Larry was an ally (kinda) who died heroically in the big “Graduation Day” battle.

Of course, this might make Whedon guilty of another pop culture crime — the “bury your gays” trope. But that’s a different trivia question.

Poor Larry. Another gay buried, even sadder that he was shown to be working with the heroes in an alternate dimension. He was a fun character.

Quite a few notable male figures in Buffy's life died, though not characters who were significant to the show. Her favourite high school teacher was killed by a praying mantis lady. The school counsellor Buffy connected with in season 3 was killed by a student. The first person Buffy seemed to bond with in college was killed by vampires.

 

[Holy Slapper]

4 episodes, which the critics saw and I still don't have any issues with this.

I guess all Augie/Penance ships are cleared for take off again?

Did not see the "spy" being who it ended up being.

 

[Sithborg]

Mmmm, that's not the ship I see....

I do see the Whedon getting into the dialogue a bit more. Even Ann Skelly's accent can't fully hide it. I'm not complaining too much, as I am truly loving scenes with Mrs True and Ms Adair together.

And while the warehouse fight wasn't nearly as impressive as the water fight (glad he survived, btw), it was still amazingly creative in how turns was used and was shot.

Spoiler

I am now super confused about the source of the Touched. Clearly, there is a person in the pod, the remains of the ship that Livinia is using the operated Touched to dig up. I need to rewatch the third episode to get Mrs. True description of when she got her turn. The thing that got me is the "knowing things I shouldn't". So, I suspect Mrs. True and Maladie got another person's memories.

I did love Lord Massin at the beginning of the phone call.

 

[Fincher]

Mmmm, that's not the ship I see....

True/Adair? True/Massen? Augustus/Swann?

I could see any and all of the above being ships, in the sense of being things that people talk about and make fan art of on Tumblr and the like, but I'm cheering for Augustus and Penance. And with Joss leaving the show after a season, maybe it won't even have to end badly.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I'm surprised that HBO hasnt made any announcement about picking up or canceling the show. The ratings have been steady and there are only 2 episodes to go.

 

[Dr.]

4 episodes, which the critics saw and I still don't have any issues with this.

Same. I’m watching Mare of Easttown (another HBO show). It’s a solid enough production with good performances. But the various side plots (at least so far) are a tad conventional — verging on soap opera-ish melodrama. And yet, the series has earned a “Certified Fresh” 93% on RT.

IMO, The Nevers is better. Or, at the very least, it’s in the same general ballpark. So something in the 80s (or even 70s) range on RT might be fair. 46% is crazy.

 

[Holy Slapper]

I'm surprised that HBO hasnt made any announcement about picking up or canceling the show. The ratings have been steady and there are only 2 episodes to go.

2 episodes of the first half of the season. Second half without Whedon involved will come out later.

 

[henzINNIT]

I haven't watched the show but from what I've observed, it seems to have gone down pretty well with people. The critic score looks really harsh for TV. And it's doing pretty well with ratings? We're in some bizarro world.

 

[flickchick85]

I'll admit I was surprised by who turned out to be the spy, but in retrospect, it makes sense that she'd be the one to go...Rogue.

 

[Dr.]

Some interesting twists.

Also interesting that they set up conflicting missions: Amalia & co. check out the mysterious “Galanthe” (?); and Penance & co. are off to rescue Maladie. Except… we only follow Penance. Presumably, Amalia’s mission will be told in the “midseason finale.”

 

[Sithborg]

I will say, I really enjoyed the twist/reveal. That character's addition didn't really strike me as a good choice at first, so this was a great thing to do.

Not super thrilled with how pervy this episode started out as. Especially with Whedon directing. I know its HBO, but a lot of times it seems unecessary. Also umcomfortable when it is Whedon behind the camera for it.

On the plus side, it wasn't as cruel as I thought it was going to go.

 

[Holy Slapper]

I will say, I really enjoyed the twist/reveal. That character's addition didn't really strike me as a good choice at first, so this was a great thing to do.

Not super thrilled with how pervy this episode started out as. Especially with Whedon directing. I know its HBO, but a lot of times it seems unecessary. Also umcomfortable when it is Whedon behind the camera for it.

On the plus side, it wasn't as cruel as I thought it was going to go.

Meh, Laura Donnelly's not exactly a prude with showing off her body. She did it in Outlander already and has apparently done so several times. Or so I hear...

As much as I hate to admit, Whedon killed it in this episode. Really good.