HBO's Game of Thrones - - - - Part 13

[Ezio Auditore]

I don't see that at all. Renly knew Stannis doesn't bend, had absolutely no love for him, knew that as long as Stannis lived he'd be a threat to his claim. Best case scenario he'd have taken Stannis captive and then let Loras or any of the other Tyrells execute him.

in fact, in the books Renly orders his men that when battle comes do not desecrate Stannis's corpse. so that pretty much tells us that he intended for Stannis to die

In the end, Renly died because Renly didn't know his place. He should have been at his brother's side. Does anyone else think that maybe even the Starks' would have been spared in some capacity in the long run if Renly hadn't caused a division in the loyalists that would have championed Stannis, leaving anyone (like the Starks) to have no other Baratheon to align with?

i agree with this entirely. Renly had absolutely no reason for a claim. in fact, Stannis would've named him his heir, and Renly should have known that Stanni's age wouldnt allow him to have a son.

 

[DACrowe]

There's a big difference between what Stannis does and what Dany does. Stannis' mistakes and problems are always based around the "do the ends justify the means?" mentality. Dany's mistakes are based around her naivety and inexperience with the culture and economy she is uprooting.

One could say the same about Stannis trying to force the Red Priestess' religion on Westeros and killing his own men who won't convert. One could also say that based on his [blackout]misreading of Northerners, Wildlings, and nearly everyone after he saves the Wall.[/blackout]

Dany from what I can tell is learning from her mistakes, and I predict she will either become an efficient queen or an efficient tyrant. Either way, she is going to make a massive splash in Westeros. Stannis will never find himself ahead because his pride, arrogance and his blind trust in one specific person, who is clearly not as interested in him.

 

[Victarion]

What kind of misreadings did you see? The only thing I can think of is him

Spoiler

making the Wall his base of operations for the Northern campaign. Restoring a Stark to Winterfell doesn't seem like a misstep. Neither does ousting Ramsay. There was a scene in ADWD where Roose told Ramsay that Northerners talk about him. That they're afraid of him. In the Theon sample chapter for TWOW, it doesn't sound like Stannis intends on forcing the North to bow to R'hllor.

I still say letting Abel out was a bigger mistake.

edit:

“Half my army is made up of unbelievers,” Stannis had replied. “I will have no burnings. Pray
harder.”

 

[Reek]

What do you guys think episode 5's title means?

Spoiler

First of his Name

 

[Solidus]

Renly was prepared to kill Stannis and had no moral dilemma over having to do it.


She lost Drogo and ended up getting 3 dragons from it. She hasn't been what Cat, Arya, Sansa, or Jon have been through.

Spoiler

That's exactly my point though: it's the people she's liberated that are suffering for her choices, not her. She may feel guilt and lost as to what to do, but she's still sitting on a comfy throne with 3 dragons.

Despite all this, I don't really hate the character of Dany. She's had the least interesting chapters in the book since A Game of Thrones. Her last two ADWD finally got interesting and I'm excited for her chapters TWOW since she's going to be interacting with more people whose names I can pronounce.

That's fine I just never found it boring. I think her "getting" dragons would be the equivalent of losing the person I loved but got 1 million dollars for it. She even begins to doubt [BLACKOUT]her dragons as ADWD progresses[/BLACKOUT]. She has lost a lot, and has been a child that has been pretty much a slave, and never had freedom, and she is trying to give the freedom she was given to others oppressed.

But yes you can tell her story is really ramping up and TWOW is going to be lots of events unfolding for her.

 

[Iceman]

On the War of the 5 Kings I think Renly & Robb should both have backed Stannis & Balon Greyjoy should not be taken seriously at any stage. Renly was too easily convinced by Loras and even if he would make a better king for the people, it's still not his to take, especially from his last remaining brother. Despite him coming off as by far the 'nicest' of the potential Kings (not counting Robb), the act of taking it from his brother who is ahead of him in succession and the rightful heir was itself a treacherous act and I doubt his parents would be proud. His place was instead to back his brother and be named heir.

Robb was fighting for his dad and the removal of Joffrey. This also would have best been served by siding with Stannis (who you would have hoped would also have Renly on side). There was no way Stannis' attack would have failed with all 3 of them on the same side (& the cowardly Greyjoy would not have caused any trouble in the North seeing all 3 on the same likely-to-win side). Also Ned Stark was championing Stannis' cause as the rightful King. It doesn't make sense for Robb not to follow this and instead let himself be called a King in the North just because some of his bannermen start chanting it.

As for Balon who is an afterthought. It's a bit annoying hearing him preach about the iron price of things to Theon even though the concept itself is a good one. Theon's clothes are not iron price because he bought them rather than won them in battle. Taking on the North properly would be the iron price in battle. Taking them on when the armies aren't even there against whatever token defence, women and kids are left is the chicken price.

I wanted to join in lol, but please correct me if I'm wrong on any facts as I haven't even finished book 1 yet.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Could not disagree more. First, people don't love her just for her looks, lots of women love her for her overcoming, and being a powerful woman.

This is nice, but I am talking about in-universe here. But I do love that people like her in for being just like Viserys. You know, the guy we all hate.

She has not "done nothing" she has sacked three cities, and liberated tons and tons of slaves destroyed an economy of an entire continent. I would not call that nothing. And I disagree with the consequences, she carries them on her shoulder all the time, wondering if what she is doing is right or wrong. She even questions using her dragons and if it would make the world a worse place. Especially in ADWD she pretty much starts losing everything, and everything starts to unravel. She has faced consequences, lost those she's loved, and [BLACKOUT]she will lose more in the upcoming seasons (ADWD)[/BLACKOUT]

No, her dragons, old men, and slaves have sacked three cites. She has showed not one bit of military skill. Nothing close to Blackwater, [BLACKOUT]or Jon holding the Wall, or the Stannis save[/BLACKOUT].

You just made my point for me. It is those around her that are hurt, are effected. She might feel bad, but it is those who she has turned from slaves to completely dependent on her that suffer. She doesn't know what she is doing.

She is like a little kid that reacts without thought of the consequences for others. Anything to feed her ego and her desire.

And that is what makes Dany so sad imo. She thinks she cares for others. Feels like she is a mother, but the truth is she loves the validation. It isn't simply to free slaves or help those in need. It is the glory, the love that goes with it.

Spoiler

Even of her dreams of Westros seem in question. She is facing all of her consequences for Slavers Bay, and others are suffering for it and she knows that. She just does not know what to do, if she turns one way, this will happen, and the other way looks no better. She has more of a conscious then Stannis does. Stannis has such a "belief" in his cause he will kill anyone that gets in his way. I love Stannis too, but I don't deny his ignorance and his flaws. Dany does care for the innocent, and is trying not to let what happened to her for years happen to others. But then there is the Targaryen side to her that has the temper, and belief that she needs to rule.

Dany's dream is a completely selfish one. One born from the same entitlement of Viserys and the Mad King. It is insanely telling that once given a little power, she took it all the way to "I am the dragon". Text book looney Targaryen. She is living up to the name alright.

I just can't disagree with that more. She has made tons of mistakes, and faced many consequences, and internal dilemmas of what to do.

Calling me when her mistakes start hurting her on the level it does everyone around her. And any pain or "consequences" she has faced are 1000% do to her. So I don't why I should feel bad for her.

That is not to say I don't find her fascinating. I do. Even if I find her story a bit boring at times, what I find so interesting is that so many just ride the surface idea of the character as some sort of embodiment of "girl power". You know, in the same books as Arya, Sansa and Brienne.

 

[Maximus One]

Arya is by far my favorite character.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Arya is by far my favorite character.

Jon is my favorite book character.

On the show it is Arya, Ned, Tywin, and Jaime. If we return to first season Jon in terms of quality, he'll be back on the list.

 

[Maximus One]

Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Tywin, Theon, Bronn, Ned, Margeary, Ramsay, Ser Jorah, Dany, Samwell

Some times it's hard for me to get past certain characters actions ie Jaime killing his cousin and his incest, Theon's unbelievable treachery etc. I always have to remind myself though that this world isn't like our world. It's insanely harsh and cruel and most characters have reasons for what they've done. I've found Theon's story to be quite tragically beautiful and moving so far. Some I just like cuz they're so amazingly, dastardly evil but still make you like them like Tywin and Ramsay. I dunno, there's not many characters I don't like aside from Sansa and Joffrey tbqh.

 

[Ramsay Snow]

I love Arya. She's my best. I want her to kill everyone.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Tywin, Theon, Bronn, Ned, Margeary, Ramsay, Ser Jorah, Dany, Samwell

Some times it's hard for me to get past certain characters actions ie Jaime killing his cousin and his incest, Theon's unbelievable treachery etc. I always have to remind myself though that this world isn't like our world. It's insanely harsh and cruel and most characters have reasons for what they've done. I've found Theon's story to be quite tragically beautiful and moving so far. Some I just like cuz they're so amazingly, dastardly evil but still make you like them like Tywin and Ramsay. I dunno, there's not many characters I don't like aside from Sansa and Joffrey tbqh.

I adore Sansa on the show. Find her completely unappreciated, but that is just me. But really, there are so many on the show to enjoy. Marg is fantastic on the show. So much better then the books, same with Bronn. Tyrion is of course the man.

I love Arya. She's my best. I want her to kill everyone.

Perfect casting on both accounts. The casting on this show has been so great 95% of the time.

 

[Victarion]

Showwise, I like the Hound, Tormund, Davos, Talisa, Catelyn the Disney Villain

Books: Jon, Mance, Melisandre, Stannis, Tywin, Ramsay

 

[Solidus]

This is nice, but I am talking about in-universe here. But I do love that people like her in for being just like Viserys. You know, the guy we all hate.


No, her dragons, old men, and slaves have sacked three cites. She has showed not one bit of military skill. Nothing close to Blackwater, [BLACKOUT]or Jon holding the Wall, or the Stannis save[/BLACKOUT].

You just made my point for me. It is those around her that are hurt, are effected. She might feel bad, but it is those who she has turned from slaves to completely dependent on her that suffer. She doesn't know what she is doing.

She is like a little kid that reacts without thought of the consequences for others. Anything to feed her ego and her desire.

And that is what makes Dany so sad imo. She thinks she cares for others. Feels like she is a mother, but the truth is she loves the validation. It isn't simply to free slaves or help those in need. It is the glory, the love that goes with it.


Dany's dream is a completely selfish one. One born from the same entitlement of Viserys and the Mad King. It is insanely telling that once given a little power, she took it all the way to "I am the dragon". Text book looney Targaryen. She is living up to the name alright.


Calling me when her mistakes start hurting her on the level it does everyone around her. And any pain or "consequences" she has faced are 1000% do to her. So I don't why I should feel bad for her.

That is not to say I don't find her fascinating. I do. Even if I find her story a bit boring at times, what I find so interesting is that so many just ride the surface idea of the character as some sort of embodiment of "girl power". You know, in the same books as Arya, Sansa and Brienne.

Again, just purely disagree. Just because she's not thrusting swords into people does not make her "less". I never said she was a solider, but not being a solider does not make some one responsible for all bad things, or not take consequences. Stannis and his men took consequences, he just took a hit with his pride, and grit his teeth. And all of the people that have died under Stannis have so for his over the top view of "justice". Like the said, the man can't bend or he will shatter. His ignorance has killed just as many, he may sulk about it more instead of verbally cry out about it, but that does not change the fact they have both done things that have caused pain for many others, but not themselves. It's a typical thing in the world of war that the leaders face different consequences then the pawns around them.

I see her strong woman"ness" as part of a young girl trying to find her way in the world. I'm not saying she's the strongest, I never have said that, but she is an interesting character with great dilemmas, and does have a lot of internal conflict. I have to almost laugh thinking she's below Sansa who just sits there and gets "whooped" on and not much changes. Ever. Dany at least stands up for what she believes, and lashes back, others may do it for her...but that's usually what Queens/military leaders do. It's not some unheard of practice.

I think it's complex with Dany. She does want self gratification to a point, but I really do think she does care about those slaves, she does want to have a better world. In the books they always talk about the "home with the red door" her happiest moments, she wants others to experience that and wants the world to go back to that place. Just as much as Stannis or any of the others want to rule. I never have said she is some crusader, or morally perfect person. But she does try harder then some of the others.

I mean people are pissed at what Stannis is doing, most of them don't even want to join him because the tire of war, and want no more death. It's no different. Stannis may go out and fight as well, but just because not all people are made to fight does not make Dany less interesting or more of a monster, because Stannis is still making all these follow him for his view of "justice" in which many are dying, he is even sacrificing what he believes in and letting many others die on Dragonstone because he wants to win so bad so he let's Mel do what she wants.

Again I love both characters, but both have massive flaws. But I find both very interesting. I think Dany gets a bad wrap because she is beaitufl, and 95% of women on TV shows from Mad Men to Walking Dead...seem to get a lot of nerd hate because others feel that they are powerful. I find her struggle and inner power to be there and in constant conflict between the little innocent girl, and the dark side of a Targaryen.

 

[Maximus One]

Man, I forgot so many lol. And I don't know about the book characters yet. Tyrion seems a lot more pompous and not as endearing. Ned seems like more of a hard ass but still just as honorable. Damn I can't believe I forgot Varys and Littlefinger too! Varys is creepy in the books so far. Joffrey isn't nearly as bad either at least not yet. Sansa is annoying as Hell but I didn't flat out hate her on the show. I'm liking book Jon and Sam more. Sam was annoying on the show to me until here recently buy I like him in the book this far.

 

[Lord]

Jon is my favorite book character.

On the show it is Arya, Ned, Tywin, and Jaime. If we return to first season Jon in terms of quality, he'll be back on the list.

It's not the first time somebody says Season 1 had better quality, is that really true? Thinking about it i probably found it the most boring.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Again, just purely disagree. Just because she's not thrusting swords into people does not make her "less". I never said she was a solider, but not being a solider does not make some one responsible for all bad things, or not take consequences. Stannis and his men took consequences, he just took a hit with his pride, and grit his teeth. And all of the people that have died under Stannis have so for his over the top view of "justice". Like the said, the man can't bend or he will shatter. His ignorance has killed just as many, he may sulk about it more instead of verbally cry out about it, but that does not change the fact they have both done things that have caused pain for many others, but not themselves. It's a typical thing in the world of war that the leaders face different consequences then the pawns around them.

I see her strong woman"ness" as part of a young girl trying to find her way in the world. I'm not saying she's the strongest, I never have said that, but she is an interesting character with great dilemmas, and does have a lot of internal conflict. I have to almost laugh thinking she's below Sansa who just sits there and gets "whooped" on and not much changes. Ever. Dany at least stands up for what she believes, and lashes back, others may do it for her...but that's usually what Queens/military leaders do. It's not some unheard of practice.

I think it's complex with Dany. She does want self gratification to a point, but I really do think she does care about those slaves, she does want to have a better world. In the books they always talk about the "home with the red door" her happiest moments, she wants others to experience that and wants the world to go back to that place. Just as much as Stannis or any of the others want to rule. I never have said she is some crusader, or morally perfect person. But she does try harder then some of the others.

I mean people are pissed at what Stannis is doing, most of them don't even want to join him because the tire of war, and want no more death. It's no different. Stannis may go out and fight as well, but just because not all people are made to fight does not make Dany less interesting or more of a monster, because Stannis is still making all these follow him for his view of "justice" in which many are dying, he is even sacrificing what he believes in and letting many others die on Dragonstone because he wants to win so bad so he let's Mel do what she wants.

Again I love both characters, but both have massive flaws. But I find both very interesting. I think Dany gets a bad wrap because she is beaitufl, and 95% of women on TV shows from Mad Men to Walking Dead...seem to get a lot of nerd hate because others feel that they are powerful. I find her struggle and inner power to be there and in constant conflict between the little innocent girl, and the dark side of a Targaryen.

1) His body itself physically aged ten years as a consequence of his actions. Let's not pretend it was just a case of wounded pride.

2)He bends quite a bit in ADWD.

 

[Drizzle]

What do you guys think episode 5's title means?

Spoiler

First of his Name

[BLACKOUT]Tommen[/BLACKOUT], perhaps?

 

[Solidus]

1) His body itself physically aged ten years as a consequence of his actions. Let's not pretend it was just a case of wounded pride.

2)He bends quite a bit in ADWD.

Part of it was his age...not all of it. The man has a broken ego, and has his whole life. He was always cast aside, and is always bitter and pissed about it. Surprised he has teeth left for how much grinding he does. I think he has bent some, but it's not much.

I'm not saying Stannis has not lost anything or faced zero consequence, I'm just saying both have, but in different ways. Consequence is not just "physical".

 

[Guts]

stannis and his tongue

 

[Guts]

[BLACKOUT]Tommen[/BLACKOUT], perhaps?

i thought first of his name, referred to the firstborn. and

Spoiler

tommen is the third child

 

[Perfect Cell]

"First of his name" means he's the first king of that name.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

Interviewer: How would you describe the role your character, Tywin Lannister?

Charles Dance: (Laughing). I have trouble enough remembering last week ... I don’t know. I sit around being mean to people and ordering their deaths.

t:t:t:t:

i just realised of the great symbolism in both Tywin's scenes with animals. skinning a deer (Baratheon), and fishing, while slaping the fishes to the rocks, in that deleted scene with pycelle (Tully)

1) His body itself physically aged ten years as a consequence of his actions. Let's not pretend it was just a case of wounded pride.

2)He bends quite a bit in ADWD.

[YT]dD4Vcyp0wRM[/YT]

a fine voice you have, Mr. Flayer

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Again, just purely disagree. Just because she's not thrusting swords into people does not make her "less". I never said she was a solider, but not being a solider does not make some one responsible for all bad things, or not take consequences. Stannis and his men took consequences, he just took a hit with his pride, and grit his teeth. And all of the people that have died under Stannis have so for his over the top view of "justice". Like the said, the man can't bend or he will shatter. His ignorance has killed just as many, he may sulk about it more instead of verbally cry out about it, but that does not change the fact they have both done things that have caused pain for many others, but not themselves. It's a typical thing in the world of war that the leaders face different consequences then the pawns around them.

I am not really defending Stannis here, but at the very least he is consistent. He doesn't speak out of both sides of his mouth, nor does he ask his men to do things he does not understand.

Dany talks of love and caring for people, and yet she wages war for the desire to conquer. Dany has no concept of battle, of war and what it does to people. And yet she still wages for her own vanity and it is at the expense of others.

I see her strong woman"ness" as part of a young girl trying to find her way in the world. I'm not saying she's the strongest, I never have said that, but she is an interesting character with great dilemmas, and does have a lot of internal conflict. I have to almost laugh thinking she's below Sansa who just sits there and gets "whooped" on and not much changes. Ever. Dany at least stands up for what she believes, and lashes back, others may do it for her...but that's usually what Queens/military leaders do. It's not some unheard of practice.

Then you probably haven't been reading Sansa's chapters or watching her scenes on the show. Sansa internalizes more pain and anguish then Dany could ever dream. She does so too survive while learning the game.

Dany is no military leader, much less a queen. She plays at it. She only started standing up for what she "believes" in once she gained power. Stick Dany in the Lannister's home without her dragon. Hell she couldn't even handle her brother. And she just sat their as her husband murdered him.

I think it's complex with Dany. She does want self gratification to a point, but I really do think she does care about those slaves, she does want to have a better world. In the books they always talk about the "home with the red door" her happiest moments, she wants others to experience that and wants the world to go back to that place. Just as much as Stannis or any of the others want to rule. I never have said she is some crusader, or morally perfect person. But she does try harder then some of the others.

It is not complex. She has a taste of glory and power, and she can't handle it like so many in her family in the past.

If she wanted her people to live happy, safe lives, she'd have settled with the slaves and dragons, and set up a community for them to live. Instead she focuses on conquering. She has the same desire as Viserys. How can this even be denied?

I mean people are pissed at what Stannis is doing, most of them don't even want to join him because the tire of war, and want no more death. It's no different. Stannis may go out and fight as well, but just because not all people are made to fight does not make Dany less interesting or more of a monster, because Stannis is still making all these follow him for his view of "justice" in which many are dying, he is even sacrificing what he believes in and letting many others die on Dragonstone because he wants to win so bad so he let's Mel do what she wants.

Are you talking books or show here? Book Stannis is a God to his men. They all look at him like Davos does.

And uh no, Stannis doesn't let Mel do whatever she wants.

Again I love both characters, but both have massive flaws. But I find both very interesting. I think Dany gets a bad wrap because she is beaitufl, and 95% of women on TV shows from Mad Men to Walking Dead...seem to get a lot of nerd hate because others feel that they are powerful. I find her struggle and inner power to be there and in constant conflict between the little innocent girl, and the dark side of a Targaryen.

You are basically claiming people are sexist, while not acknowledging that characters like Arya, Joan, Brienne and others are beloved.

Dany doesn't get a bad wrap because she is powerful and beautiful. It is because she is put on a pedestal while doing horribly stupid things. While being selfish. And to claim she is young and naive in the world of ASOIAF does that wash. Not when she has made these decision when she didn't have to. Not on the same show with the Stark children, who have witnessed and confronted situations that would make Dany crumble and still they persevere.

 

[Roose Bolton]

[YT]dD4Vcyp0wRM[/YT]

a fine voice you have, Mr. Flayer

t: