HBO's Game of Thrones - - - - Part 13

[DACrowe]

Dany makes a lot of mistakes in the fifth book. But Stannis made nothing but makes for nearly two books, yet fans seem to give him a pass.

 

[Ramsay Snow]

 

[Victarion]

Dany makes a lot of mistakes in the fifth book. But Stannis made nothing but makes for nearly two books, yet fans seem to give him a pass.

I've always seen him as the closest thing to a hero in the North (after the end of Storm of Swords). The best of a bad bunch. Give me your perspective on Stannis. Personally, I think Jon messed up when (ADWD spoilers)

Spoiler

he decided to turn Mance loose in the North. Jon's betrayed him once. I doubt Mance will forgive and forget.

 

[Roose Bolton]

There's a big difference between what Stannis does and what Dany does. Stannis' mistakes and problems are always based around the "do the ends justify the means?" mentality. Dany's mistakes are based around her naivety and inexperience with the culture and economy she is uprooting.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Dany makes a lot of mistakes in the fifth book. But Stannis made nothing but makes for nearly two books, yet fans seem to give him a pass.

Stannis has made mistakes trying to do things. Dany has made mistakes by doing nothing. Two things separate Dany from every other character in the series: she's hardly suffered from the consequences of her actions and she has plot armor. I love Davos and Tyrion, but there's a chance either of them can get shanked and die face down in the mud. Do you really think that's happening to someone with 3 dragons?

 

[Marvolo]

Stannis has made mistakes trying to do things. Dany has made mistakes by doing nothing. Two things separate Dany from every other character in the series: she's hardly suffered from the consequences of her actions and she has plot armor. I love Davos and Tyrion, but there's a chance either of them can get shanked and die face down in the mud. Do you really think that's happening to someone with 3 dragons?

Do you read the books? The Red Wedding and the end of ADWD especially prove there is no one GRRM wont kill.

I know readers have their theorys about Dany and her future with another character, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if she never made it out of Esos or was killed as soon as she got to Westeros. That's just the kind of stuff I expect from GRRM. No one is safe, and sometimes people just punch their ticket at the most inopportune time regardless of who they are.

 

[Maximus One]

Does Sansa ever become tolerable in the books? Her chapters are like nails on a chalk board to me. She never bugged me on the show, just never really care about her, but in the first book she is just beyond annoying to me.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Do you read the books? The Red Wedding and the end of ADWD especially prove there is no one GRRM wont kill.

I know readers have their theorys about Dany and her future with another character, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if she never made it out of Esos or was killed as soon as she got to Westeros. That's just the kind of stuff I expect from GRRM. No one is safe, and sometimes people just punch their ticket at the most inopportune time regardless of who they are.

Have you heard of Joe Abercrombie ?

 

[Marvolo]

Have you heard of Joe Abercrombie ?

Yeah, he is an author that is at the top of my "to read" list. Ive read the first chapter of The Blade Itself and it grabbed my attention from the get go. Havent gotten around to reading beyond that point tho.

 

[Roose Bolton]

If you thought that what GRRM writes was cruel and unusual well....yeah this guy makes GRRM look like a kindly grandfather.

 

[Marvolo]

If you thought that what GRRM writes was cruel and unusual well....yeah this guy makes GRRM look like a kindly grandfather.

Im not sure Id call it cruel. Admirable is more what I would call it. As a reader, it definitely hurts to read these deaths. But for an author to be able to spend years writing these characters and coming to know them and then to kill them in such brutal ways...that is something. Not all authors can do that, and I appreciate the ones who can. I like feel-good stories. But I also like consequences in stories. GRRM doesnt shy away from the consequences. He keeps me on my toes. I dont get too comfortable in his world. If Joe is like this then I should like his stuff.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Dany makes a lot of mistakes in the fifth book. But Stannis made nothing but makes for nearly two books, yet fans seem to give him a pass.

The difference is that Stannis doesn't ride a wave of love based on his looks. He doesn't have plot armor. He doesn't run around screaming "fire, blood, love me" while not knowing the first thing about large scale combat or ruling. She is ridiculously entitled for someone who who when this all started just wanted to have a home to live and feel save in.

The best comparison is Jon and Dany. Both have been given near impossible situations, but where Jon has had to work for every little bit, Dany has things handed to her time and again.

And it is sad, because Dany is fantastic in the first book. The first season of the show was even better. But as they go on, she seems more and more like the other crazies in her family.

Do you read the books? The Red Wedding and the end of ADWD especially prove there is no one GRRM wont kill.

I know readers have their theorys about Dany and her future with another character, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if she never made it out of Esos or was killed as soon as she got to Westeros. That's just the kind of stuff I expect from GRRM. No one is safe, and sometimes people just punch their ticket at the most inopportune time regardless of who they are.

Spoiler

Jon is alive. GRRM all but confirmed it already. GRRM doesn't kill character's in their own POV. Cat would have been the first, and look what happened their. Not to mention he told us long ago Jon would learn who his mother is. So he isn't dead, not yet.

I highly doubt that will happen to Dany when she arrives. But I also think she will never sit on the Iron Throne. I still think the show's take on her "visions" provided the biggest evidence. She didn't touch the throne, but it was covered in snow.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Im not sure Id call it cruel. Admirable is more what I would call it. As a reader, it definitely hurts to read these deaths. But for an author to be able to spend years writing these characters and coming to know them and then to kill them in such brutal ways...that is something. Not all authors can do that, and I appreciate the ones who can. I like feel-good stories. But I also like consequences in stories. GRRM doesnt shy away from the consequences. He keeps me on my toes. I dont get too comfortable in his world. If Joe is like this then I should like his stuff.

There's definitely consequences, I'd even say its examined in a way GRRM doesn't really go into, mainly dealing with the bad guy side of that spectrum.

 

[Lord]

Stannis? The Kinslayer who wanted Jaime punished for kingslaying?

 

[Roose Bolton]

Technically it was Melisandre who did the slaying and it's not like Renly was going to spare Stannis either.

 

[Lord]

It seemed like Renly was just expecting Stannis to surrender based on his smaller army, either way i could see him taking his brother captive instead of killing him.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I don't see that at all. Renly knew Stannis doesn't bend, had absolutely no love for him, knew that as long as Stannis lived he'd be a threat to his claim. Best case scenario he'd have taken Stannis captive and then let Loras or any of the other Tyrells execute him.

 

[Solidus]

The difference is that Stannis doesn't ride a wave of love based on his looks. He doesn't have plot armor. He doesn't run around screaming "fire, blood, love me" while not knowing the first thing about large scale combat or ruling. She is ridiculously entitled for someone who who when this all started just wanted to have a home to live and feel save in.

The best comparison is Jon and Dany. Both have been given near impossible situations, but where Jon has had to work for every little bit, Dany has things handed to her time and again.

And it is sad, because Dany is fantastic in the first book. The first season of the show was even better. But as they go on, she seems more and more like the other crazies in her family.

.

Could not disagree more. First, people don't love her just for her looks, lots of women love her for her overcoming, and being a powerful woman.

She has not "done nothing" she has sacked three cities, and liberated tons and tons of slaves destroyed an economy of an entire continent. I would not call that nothing. And I disagree with the consequences, she carries them on her shoulder all the time, wondering if what she is doing is right or wrong. She even questions using her dragons and if it would make the world a worse place. Especially in ADWD she pretty much starts losing everything, and everything starts to unravel. She has faced consequences, lost those she's loved, and [BLACKOUT]she will lose more in the upcoming seasons (ADWD)[/BLACKOUT]

Spoiler

Even of her dreams of Westros seem in question. She is facing all of her consequences for Slavers Bay, and others are suffering for it and she knows that. She just does not know what to do, if she turns one way, this will happen, and the other way looks no better. She has more of a conscious then Stannis does. Stannis has such a "belief" in his cause he will kill anyone that gets in his way. I love Stannis too, but I don't deny his ignorance and his flaws. Dany does care for the innocent, and is trying not to let what happened to her for years happen to others. But then there is the Targaryen side to her that has the temper, and belief that she needs to rule.

I just can't disagree with that more. She has made tons of mistakes, and faced many consequences, and internal dilemmas of what to do.

 

[Iceman]

http://uk.tv.yahoo.com/game-of-thrones--lena-headey-and-jerome-flynn--kept-apart-110901863.html

Game of Thrones' Lena Headey and Jerome Flynn 'kept apart'

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Well that aint good!

 

[Spidey-Bat]

It seemed like Renly was just expecting Stannis to surrender based on his smaller army, either way i could see him taking his brother captive instead of killing him.

Renly was prepared to kill Stannis and had no moral dilemma over having to do it.

Could not disagree more. First, people don't love her just for her looks, lots of women love her for her overcoming, and being a powerful woman.

She has not "done nothing" she has sacked three cities, and liberated tons and tons of slaves destroyed an economy of an entire continent. I would not call that nothing. And I disagree with the consequences, she carries them on her shoulder all the time, wondering if what she is doing is right or wrong. She even questions using her dragons and if it would make the world a worse place. Especially in ADWD she pretty much starts losing everything, and everything starts to unravel. She has faced consequences, lost those she's loved, and [BLACKOUT]she will lose more in the upcoming seasons (ADWD)[/BLACKOUT]

She lost Drogo and ended up getting 3 dragons from it. She hasn't been what Cat, Arya, Sansa, or Jon have been through.

Spoiler

Even of her dreams of Westros seem in question. She is facing all of her consequences for Slavers Bay, and others are suffering for it and she knows that. She just does not know what to do, if she turns one way, this will happen, and the other way looks no better. She has more of a conscious then Stannis does. Stannis has such a "belief" in his cause he will kill anyone that gets in his way. I love Stannis too, but I don't deny his ignorance and his flaws. Dany does care for the innocent, and is trying not to let what happened to her for years happen to others. But then there is the Targaryen side to her that has the temper, and belief that she needs to rule.

I just can't disagree with that more. She has made tons of mistakes, and faced many consequences, and internal dilemmas of what to do.

Spoiler

That's exactly my point though: it's the people she's liberated that are suffering for her choices, not her. She may feel guilt and lost as to what to do, but she's still sitting on a comfy throne with 3 dragons.

Despite all this, I don't really hate the character of Dany. She's had the least interesting chapters in the book since A Game of Thrones. Her last two ADWD finally got interesting and I'm excited for her chapters TWOW since she's going to be interacting with more people whose names I can pronounce.

 

[smashmode]

This is awesome, Gandalf's sword in the Iron Throne?

http://lightlybuzzed.com/2014/03/13/gandalfs-sword-iron-throne-game-thrones/

The Iron Throne on Game of Thrones is was made by Aegon I Targaryen of all the swords that were surrendered to him. The throne is said to be made of a thousand swords from a thousand defeated enemies. Well apparently one of those enemies was Gandalf the Grey.

 

[corby]

^ That's my reddit post t: I posted the pic back in the last thread

During a rewatch of season 3 I noticed that Gandalf's sword Glamdring is part of the Iron Throne.

 

[smashmode]

^ That's my reddit post t: I posted the pic back in the last thread

Oh Awesome! I saw Robin Hood's sword is in there too!

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I'm not going by the books, because I've just only now finishing book one. But, the knock against her rings true for me. I thought her arc in season one was absolutely wonderful, the victim becoming a survivor and then becoming a strong powerful individual. It was really just great character development from where she starts out in the pilot and how she rises from the flames by the end.

But somewhere around the point where every other character is being truly tested, she's looking like a lightweight. From what I see of her arc from season two to the end of season three, it seems like it's all about Dany learning the ropes of leadership. But...compare her situation to Robb, where he too is a very young, very green character who also has to learn while on the job more or less, and someone like Tyrion too, and there are real consequences for the even the smallest of decisions that may not even be made by them (ie: Cat making a decision that was detrimental to Robb, Joffrey making decisions that are detrimental to Tyrion, etc.)...and it winds up looking like Dany has the training wheels on.

I think the detachment from all of Westeros has something to do with it, too. She's so far from this harsh place, where strong people, smart people, brave people...have all still managed to slip up and get killed. The dichotomy is just noticeable. It's so much so, that I really do wonder what will end up happening with her. GRMM's reasoning for Ned and Robb's deaths is what has me thinking that things won't end well at all for Dany. Like, in a ****ed up and sad and horrible and tragic sort of way.

I don't see that at all. Renly knew Stannis doesn't bend, had absolutely no love for him, knew that as long as Stannis lived he'd be a threat to his claim. Best case scenario he'd have taken Stannis captive and then let Loras or any of the other Tyrells execute him.

When I first watched it happen, without knowing as much as I do now about the world itself (ie: the importance and major differences between first borns, second borns, third borns, etc.) it kinda seemed like Stannis was a villain to me, mostly because Renly was his brother.

But, truth be told...Stannis did right. Aside from not being the type of brothers that the Starks were (ie: Robb, Bran, Rickon and even Jon were all pretty close), Renly didn't have as strong a claim to the throne. Stannis is the true King. And besides, Renly knew the kind of straight line, no ********, hardass of a man Stannis was. He knew they were going to the jugulars, as he would have had Stannis killed the same if it meant he'd have the throne.

In the end, Renly died because Renly didn't know his place. He should have been at his brother's side. Does anyone else think that maybe even the Starks' would have been spared in some capacity in the long run if Renly hadn't caused a division in the loyalists that would have championed Stannis, leaving anyone (like the Starks) to have no other Baratheon to align with?