HBO's Game of Thrones - - - - Part 13

[Roose Bolton]

And you don't think there isn't plenty of time in 10 episodes? Especially when we know that we will get more then a bit of ADWD in season 4. When [BLACKOUT]we will be losing a lot of characters who get screen time this season[/BLACKOUT]?

Oh we'll get through a lot of it I'm sure, but not all of it pays to happen all at once. The revelation Doran Martell gives Arianne works better if we meet Quentyn after that moment for instance,. I think they've got to rejig some of the structure of those books, it's kind of like unwinding a knot. I think it'll take time trying to do that and managing the older characters story lines as well, plus the added time you get from certain action scenes that are given greater detail for sake of drama. I can't see it all being confined to 10 eps. I think at least some of it will spill over into season 6.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Any spill over will be minimal, especially if they end certain character's storylines where I think they will.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I'd like to think that, but the fact that they're adding completely new story elements to Bran, Stannis, and Ramsay this season makes me think they're not above adding new material to slow the story lines down if they have to. Likewise Dany's storyline in season 3 ended in soothing that wasn't at all a climax, so I could see them doing more of that. (even though I hate the Mhysa scene)

For instance, I could see Jon's season 5 arc ending with Alys Karstark's wedding, Dany's with Hizdahr, Tyrion's with him and [blackout] Jorah getting enslaved [/blackout].

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I would probably bet a lot that isn't going to happen. There is nothing climatic to it. Nothing at all. No big Episode 9. This is especially true when they talk about wanting to end the show in 7 or 8 seasons.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I think the Mhysa scene proves that they're not afraid of ending it on moments that aren't inherently climatic. I mean, I don't think the scene worked as a fitting climax of season 3, but evidently D&D did.

If they're looking for a climatic Epsidoe 9 moment for season 5 then they could use the end of Theon's storyline from ADWD which is one of the most tense moments of the series, and the most emoiontally gratifying climax.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

They are not going base episode 9 around Theon. Episode 9 is reserved for the Starks and Lannisters. I could see them building an episode 9 around Dany, but not Theon. No way.

And while the final scene of last season was anti-climatic (partially because they split the book), I would bet a lot we all know the exact scene season 4 will end with. And I am pretty sure we know what the final scene of season 5 will be as well. There are only two real options.

 

[Marvolo]

I think the Mhysa scene proves that they're not afraid of ending it on moments that aren't inherently climatic. I mean, I don't think the scene worked as a fitting climax of season 3, but evidently D&D did.

If they're looking for a climatic Epsidoe 9 moment for season 5 then they could use the end of Theon's storyline from ADWD which is one of the most tense moments of the series, and the most emoiontally gratifying climax.

Or they could use the Battle of Mereen from WOW in season 5 episode 9. It's already entirely written due to it originally being in ADWD.

Non book readers do NOT read!

That would give them 8 episodes to get [BLACKOUT]Tyrion and Victarionto Mereen which is more than enough time imo.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Can you imagine GRRM seeing that. He'll probably have a heart attack. "What? I thought I had 3 more years!!!!"

 

[Marvolo]

Can you imagine GRRM seeing that. He'll probably have a heart attack. "What? I thought I had 3 more years!!!!"

He'd definitely **** a brick but given where this season is going it's logical from an adaption and story standpoint to get to that point by the end of next season. To not get there would just be unnecessary stalling of [BLACKOUT]Dany's, Tyrion's, and Victarion's storylines. We can't have Tyrion and Victarion spend 2 or 3 seasons getting to Mereen.[/BLACKOUT] If it's not this battle than I really can't think of any significant battle for season 5 episode 9. Tho I could be forgetting one.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Or they could use the Battle of Mereen from WOW in season 5 episode 9. It's already entirely written due to it originally being in ADWD.

Non book readers do NOT read!

That would give them 8 episodes to get [BLACKOUT]Tyrion and Victarionto Mereen which is more than enough time imo.[/BLACKOUT]

I definitely think we'll see either that Battle or the Battle in the Icw before WoW comes out lol

 

[DarthSkywalker]

He'd definitely **** a brick but given where this season is going it's logical from an adaption and story standpoint to get to that point by the end of next season. To not get there would just be unnecessary stalling of [BLACKOUT]Dany's, Tyrion's, and Victarion's storylines. We can't have Tyrion and Victarion spend 2 or 3 seasons getting to Mereen.[/BLACKOUT] If it's not this battle than I really can't think of any significant battle for season 5 episode 9. Tho I could be forgetting one.

I agree, completely. But did you read what he said about the subject?

The season that’s about to debut covers the second half of the third book. The third book [A Storm of Swords] was so long that it had to be split into two. But there are two more books beyond that, A Feast for Crowsand A Dance with Dragons. A Dance with Dragons is itself a book that’s as big as A Storm of Swords. So there’s potentially three more seasons there, between Feast and Dance, if they split into two the way they did [with Storms]. Now, Feast and Dance take place simultaneously. So you can’t do Feast and then Dance the way I did. You can combine them and do it chronologically. And it’s my hope that they’ll do it that way and then, long before they catch up with me, I’ll have published The Winds of Winter, which’ll give me another couple years. It might be tight on the last book, A Dream of Spring, as they juggernaut forward.

http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/george-r-r-martin-interview

Yeah, uh no. He doesn't seem to realize this seasons is going into both AFFC and ADWD material.

 

[Marvolo]

I definitely think we'll see either that Battle or the Battle in the Icw before WoW comes out lol

Which ones that? Drawin a blank here.

I agree, completely. But did you read what he said about the subject?



http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/george-r-r-martin-interview

Yeah, uh no. He doesn't seem to realize this seasons is going into both AFFC and ADWD material.

Lmao he thinks AFFC and ADWD are going to take up 3+ seasons? That poor man is in for a rude awakening.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What's that stand for? I'm drawing a blank.

I think he means the Battle in the Ice, [BLACKOUT]Stannis vs. Ramsay[/BLACKOUT].

Personally, I still think [BLACKOUT]Jon's story in ADWD ended with an attack by the Others[/BLACKOUT]. So three potential battles for the end of season 5, and the beginning of season 6.

 

[Marvolo]

I think he means the Battle in the Ice, [BLACKOUT]Stannis vs. Ramsay[/BLACKOUT].

Personally, I still think [BLACKOUT]Jon's story in ADWD ended with an attack by the Others[/BLACKOUT]. So three potential battles for the end of season 5, and the beginning of season 6.

I really fear that GRRM will fight D&D and try to make them stall. I really really hope HBO protected themselves and D&D in their contracts by giving them final say over the adaption with GRRM simply being consultant and giving him one script a season. Or at the very least gave Martin a deadline that if he didn't hit they could continue on without him and his consent. I know they've said they won't wait, but the contracts are what really determine this shows future. Otherwise I could see him trying to force them to stall since he has all the motivation of a sloth. If he does force them to stall I doubt we'll see this show get an ending it will stall and be dragged out until HBO gets tired of waiting on Martin and the show withers.

*By stall I don't mean postponed or a break. I mean them dragging this story out unnecessarily by doing what GRRM wants them to do and make AFFC and ADWD 3+ seasons so he can get the books done. That would severely stall the story, and create some boring ass seasons. There's zero reason to take up 3 or more season on that material. It would strain credulity from an adaption standpoint and lack any sensible momentum.

 

[Roose Bolton]

They are not going base episode 9 around Theon. Episode 9 is reserved for the Starks and Lannisters. I could see them building an episode 9 around Dany, but not Theon. No way.

And while the final scene of last season was anti-climatic (partially because they split the book), I would bet a lot we all know the exact scene season 4 will end with. And I am pretty sure we know what the final scene of season 5 will be as well. There are only two real options.

If you look at ADWD, it's entire thematic arc is based around the idea of denying who you are. Dany tries to focus on being a "mother" figure instead of being a conqueror until she has her epiphany, Tyrion is an angry, cruel prick until he meets Penny, Jon tries to focus on being a man of the Watch instead of being a Stark until he reads that letter. This is even more apparent when you look at the other POVs. Victarion starts out as a simple Ironborn Reaver and his chapters are titled "The Iron Captain, The Reaver, The Iron Suitor," it's only after he learns to become more, and embrace [blackout] R'hllor [/blackout] that he earns his owned named "Victarion" chapters. Same with Barristan struggling to remain a simple knight rather than become involved with the politics, it's only when he takes matters into his own hands that he earns "Barristan" chapters. Quentyn constantly thinks better of himself, and refuses to except who he is. Hence why he doesn't get a name.

No where else is this exemplified better than Theon. His storyline is the emotional and thematic backbone of the entire book. The Stark/Lannister thing is not some binding rule. And I'd argue that Theon is more Stark than he is Greyjoy, there's a reason why they've kept him in the spotlight for so long.

 

[Marvolo]

If you look at ADWD, it's entire thematic arc is based around the idea of denying who you are. Dany tries to focus on being a "mother" figure instead of being a conqueror until she has her epiphany, Tyrion is an angry, cruel prick until he meets Penny, Jon tries to focus on being a man of the Watch instead of being a Stark until he reads that letter. This is even more apparent when you look at the other POVs. Victarion starts out as a simple Ironborn Reaver and his chapters are titled "The Iron Captain, The Reaver, The Iron Suitor," it's only after he learns to become more, and embrace [blackout] R'hllor [/blackout] that he earns his owned named "Victarion" chapters. Same with Barristan struggling to remain a simple knight rather than become involved with the politics, it's only when he takes matters into his own hands that he earns "Barristan" chapters. Quentyn constantly thinks better of himself, and refuses to except who he is. Hence why he doesn't get a name.

No where else is this exemplified better than Theon. His storyline is the emotional and thematic backbone of the entire book. The Stark/Lannister thing is not some binding rule. And I'd argue that Theon is more Stark than he is Greyjoy, there's a reason why they've kept him in the spotlight for so long.

I never noticed that! Granted, I've only read the book once. Regardless, thank you for pointing that out!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I really fear that GRRM will fight D&D and try to make them stall. I really really hope HBO protected themselves and D&D in their contracts by giving them final say over the adaption with GRRM simply being consultant and giving him one script a season. Or at the very least gave Martin a deadline that if he didn't hit they could continue on without him and his consent. I know they've said they won't wait, but the contracts are what really determine this shows future. Otherwise I could see him trying to force them to stall since he has all the motivation of a sloth. If he does force them to stall I doubt we'll see this show get an ending it will stall and be dragged out until HBO gets tired of waiting on Martin and the show withers.

*By stall I don't mean postponed or a break. I mean them dragging this story out unnecessarily by doing what GRRM wants them to do and make AFFC and ADWD 3+ seasons so he can get the books done. That would severely stall the story, and create some boring ass seasons. There's zero reason to take up 3 or more season on that material. It would strain credulity from an adaption standpoint and lack any sensible momentum.

This won't happen. It just won't. They are already outlining and scripting next season. They know what they want to do. GRRM won't change that. Not at this point. That is why I think they have been emphasizing that they are at the midway point. That the show has a finite time as they know what they want to do with it.

If you look at ADWD, it's entire thematic arc is based around the idea of denying who you are. Dany tries to focus on being a "mother" figure instead of being a conqueror until she has her epiphany, Tyrion is an angry, cruel prick until he meets Penny, Jon tries to focus on being a man of the Watch instead of being a Stark until he reads that letter. This is even more apparent when you look at the other POVs. Victarion starts out as a simple Ironborn Reaver and his chapters are titled "The Iron Captain, The Reaver, The Iron Suitor," it's only after he learns to become more, and embrace [blackout] R'hllor [/blackout] that he earns his owned named "Victarion" chapters. Same with Barristan struggling to remain a simple knight rather than become involved with the politics, it's only when he takes matters into his own hands that he earns "Barristan" chapters. Quentyn constantly thinks better of himself, and refuses to except who he is. Hence why he doesn't get a name.

No where else is this exemplified better than Theon. His storyline is the emotional and thematic backbone of the entire book. The Stark/Lannister thing is not some binding rule. And I'd argue that Theon is more Stark than he is Greyjoy, there's a reason why they've kept him in the spotlight for so long.

Jon is the backbone of ADWD, its heart imo. But even still, ok, you tell me what they will do with Theon in Episode 9 of season 5 when they are already doing [BLACKOUT]Moat Cailin[/BLACKOUT] this season.

And while there is no binding rule, there is a reason why they promote the show the way they do. The Starks, Dany and the Lannisters are the stars. Episode 9 is built around drama that would effect the vast majority of the viewing crowd. Theon doesn't apply.

 

[Marvolo]

This won't happen. It just won't. They are already outlining and scripting next season. They know what they want to do. GRRM won't change that. Not at this point. That is why I think they have been emphasizing that they are at the midway point. That the show has a finite time as they know what they want to do with it.


Jon is the backbone of ADWD, its heart imo. But even still, ok, you tell me what they will do with Theon in Episode 9 of season 5 when they are already doing [BLACKOUT]Moat Cailin[/BLACKOUT] this season.

And while there is no binding rule, there is a reason why they promote the show the way they do. The Starks, Dany and the Lannisters are the stars. Episode 9 is built around drama that would effect the vast majority of the viewing crowd. Theon doesn't apply.

It's reassuring to know he can't effect the show by stalling it.

I wonder what Martin's school teachers went through with him? Could you imagine trying to get an essay from him? I can imagine it went something like this:

"I swear, Mrs. Smith, I thought I had more time. We had a whole chapter to cover before it was due."

"George, we finished that chapter last semester!"

 

[Roose Bolton]

Jon is the backbone of ADWD, its heart imo. But even still, ok, you tell me what they will do with Theon in Episode 9 of season 5 when they are already doing [BLACKOUT]Moat Cailin[/BLACKOUT] this season.

"You know me. I'm Theon, you remember. I know you too. I know your name."

Pretty much that entire chapter.

Is it a big battle? No, is it a great slaughter? No. But it's extremely tense, and the emotional climax of ADWD.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's reassuring to know he can't effect the show by stalling it.

I wonder what Martin's school teachers went through with him? Could you imagine trying to get an essay from him? I can imagine it went something like this:

"I swear, Mrs. Smith, I thought I had more time. We had a whole chapter to cover before it was due."

"George, we finished that chapter last semester!"

It simply the luxury of not having a deadline. He use to write much faster out of necessity. And well if I am honest, I just don't think he cares that much anymore. When I think about GRRM I can't help but compare him to JK, who started and finished her series in good order. Her passion for the project never diminished, and it was probably because she never let it happen. If OotP had taken half a decade to come to life, maybe we'd still not have DH.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

"You know me. I'm Theon, you remember. I know you too. I know your name."

Pretty much that entire chapter.

Is it a big battle? No, is it a great slaughter? No. But it's extremely tense, and the emotional climax of ADWD.

They are not going to base episode 9 around that. You really think that they would do that? After Baelor, Blackwater, The Rains of Castermere and this season's [BLACKOUT]huge battle at the Wall[/BLACKOUT]? Episode 9 has become a selling point. That isn't going to happen. We have a better chance of episode 9 ending with [BLACKOUT]Jon being attacked and having him wake in the last scene of the season[/BLACKOUT].

And my emotional climax of ADWD is [BLACKOUT]Jon's attack[/BLACKOUT]. I almost broke my window.

 

[Marvolo]

It simply the luxury of not having a deadline. He use to write much faster out of necessity. And well if I am honest, I just don't think he cares that much anymore. When I think about GRRM I can't help but compare him to JK, who started and finished her series in good order. Her passion for the project never diminished, and it was probably because she never let it happen. If OotP had taken half a decade to come to life, maybe we'd still not have DH.

The man does need some motivation. If his publisher doesn't give him a deadline soon they are going to be facing another deadline...The Deadline. At his age and his weight the man's arteries probably look like a sewage pipe on thanksgiving night.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The man does need some motivation. If his publisher doesn't give him a deadline soon they are going to be facing another deadline...The Deadline. At his age and his weight the man's arteries probably look like a sewage pipe on thanksgiving night.

Which is why his stance that if he dies, the books die as well bothers me so much. Of course it is his decision, but every year makes me think the only finale we will get is the GoT one. Which considering the quality of AFFC and ADWD might not be a bad thing.

 

[Marvolo]

Which is why his stance that if he dies, the books die as well bothers me so much. Of course it is his decision, but every year makes me think the only finale we will get is the GoT one. Which considering the quality of AFFC and ADWD might not be a bad thing.

I would miss the depth of the novels if he died and we didn't get a book ending. He'd also go down in literary history as a selfish bastard amongst his fans. What are the chances of someone like Brandon Sanderson finishing the book series if he died? Has he ever discussed this?

 

[Roose Bolton]

They are not going to base episode 9 around that. You really think that they would do that? After Baelor, Blackwater, The Rains of Castermere and this season's [BLACKOUT]huge battle at the Wall[/BLACKOUT]? Episode 9 has become a selling point. That isn't going to happen. We have a better chance of episode 9 ending with [BLACKOUT]Jon being attacked and having him wake in the last scene of the season[/BLACKOUT].

And my emotional climax of ADWD is [BLACKOUT]Jon's attack[/BLACKOUT]. I almost broke my window.

I never said that it'd be the whole episode, just like the Red Wedding wasn't the whole of The Rains of Castamere and Ned's execution wasn't the entirety of Baelor. I wouldn't rule out Dany and Drogon or something like that happening as well, but Theon's redemption is definitely going to be one of the big moments of episode 9. He may not be Dany, he may not be a Lannister, but the audience knows him as the adopted Stark son and given that the setting will be [blackout] Winterfell [/blackout] his ties with the Starks will be reinforced even more.

Your emotional climax is Jon. That's great, he's a great character and very likely the hero of the whole saga. But ADWD was about a lot more than him, may not have even been massive game changing Ice vs Fire stuff, but the human element was there and Theon was at the centre of that.