Justice League Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman

[Da-Scribe]

What if Lex was influencing Batman and Superman to fight each other but not in such an overt way? For example he was manipulating both characters through conversation and social manipulation rather than strong arming one of them? Like he manipulated Batman through the use of newspaper clippings and Wally his employee. Maybe he could've manipulated Superman as well that way and have two separate conversations convincing each of them privately to fight the other? In kind of a Frank Underwood House of Cards fashion, using their paranoia against them?
Just like Bruce has a convo with Alfred about why Superman has to be destroyed. Superman then has a convo with Lois about why Batman should be removed or taken in.

That way when both characters meet to fight, they both have in built rage and genuinely believe both are a menace to society and after they bloody each other up for a bit and discuss things, they realize how far they've been manipulated as a result of their insecurities?

Yeah I think that direction could've worked pretty well as an alternative. Maybe the ending could've had Supes and Bats going to confront Lex, so Lex releases Doomsday as a last ditch effort. Supes and Wondie take on DD, while Bats takes out Lex and his goons.

Even though I liked the Martha moment and seeing Batman finally save "Martha" as well, I think going this other way would've been a fair trade.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

Yeah I think that direction could've worked pretty well as an alternative. Maybe the ending could've had Supes and Bats going to confront Lex, so Lex releases Doomsday as a last ditch effort. Supes and Wondie take on DD, while Bats takes out Lex and his goons.

Even though I liked the Martha moment and seeing Batman finally save "Martha" as well, I think going this other way would've been a fair trade.

yeah he either ditches Doomsday or maybe some robots they could take down. And the film ends with Bruce Wayne buying the Daily Planet, meeting the staff and shaking hands with reporter Clark Kent.

I liked the martha moment as well, but the thing that really irks me is that the whole fight, the titular battle happened because of Ma Kent's kidnapping rather than difference in character's ideology. Maybe Superman could've brought up his mom during a conversation with Batman about how much she means to him and that humanizes him. Again, just like that graveyard scene in Daredevil where Punisher talks about his daughter and coming back from the war which really humanized him.

Then they can sort of see what they mean to each other (Bats and Supes) and why society needs a bit of both. Inspiration amongst the masses, fear amongst the criminals.

 

[Da-Scribe]

yeah he either ditches Doomsday or maybe some robots they could take down. And the film ends with Bruce Wayne buying the Daily Planet, meeting the staff and shaking hands with reporter Clark Kent.

I liked the martha moment as well, but the thing that really irks me is that the whole fight, the titular battle happened because of Ma Kent's kidnapping rather than difference in character's ideology. Maybe Superman could've brought up his mom during a conversation with Batman about how much she means to him and that humanizes him. Again, just like that graveyard scene in Daredevil where Punisher talks about his daughter and coming back from the war which really humanized him.

Then they can sort of see what they mean to each other (Bats and Supes) and why society needs a bit of both. Inspiration amongst the masses, fear amongst the criminals.

I get that, but I did like that Superman didn't actually show up to fight. It just sorta deteriorated into that. I know that you could still have that in your scenario, but I think that it was good to have the situation actually be bigger than either of their ideas about each other.

But that's neither here nor there truthfully. It really just boils down to what you like. You would've liked the fight to be about their different ideals, which is completely valid and certainly would've served the film well. I prefer to have them fight about something beyond themselves, and have the ideals sorta layered in there.

Hard to say why I prefer it. Just a feeling rather than a logical reason I guess.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

I get that, but I did like that Superman didn't actually show up to fight. It just sorta deteriorated into that. I know that you could still have that in your scenario, but I think that it was good to have the situation actually be bigger than either of their ideas about each other.

But that's neither here nor there truthfully. It really just boils down to what you like. You would've liked the fight to be about their different ideals, which is completely valid and certainly would've served the film well. I prefer to have them fight about something beyond themselves, and have the ideals sorta layered in there.

Hard to say why I prefer it. Just a feeling rather than a logical reason I guess.

That's fair! I would've liked it in the way the film was marketed as a serious character study between both heroes. And I think one way we both differ as well is why I wanted to get amped before the start of the fight and really whoop and cheer at every blow while being invested in their moral dilemma, you sort of preferred that the fight was dirty and was shown in a negative fashion that didn't allow for entertainment because it's not a good thing.

 

[Da-Scribe]

That's fair! I would've liked it in the way the film was marketed as a serious character study between both heroes. And I think one way we both differ as well is why I wanted to get amped before the start of the fight and really whoop and cheer at every blow while being invested in their moral dilemma, you sort of preferred that the fight was dirty and was shown in a negative fashion that didn't allow for entertainment because it's not a good thing.

You pretty much summed it up perfectly with that. It's crazy how much a movie like hinges on how you look at the very concept of heroes fighting each other in the first place.

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

You pretty much summed it up perfectly with that. It's crazy how much a movie like hinges on how you look at the very concept of heroes fighting each other in the first place.

Yeah IKR. It's making me wonder if that's why Civil War is raking in such positive reviews. Seeing it tomorrow so guess I'll know then.

 

[LamboMan]

Guess I'll add my two cents on this topic:

Before the movie came out I was completely expecting the battle between Batman and Superman to be a battle of ideals. Their ideals are the things that guide their methods and classically, in the comics and animated media, they have always disagreed on their methods.

This was definitely touched upon in the movie as a motivation for Superman to investigate Batman and want to stop him.

But in the end the resolution wasn't one of their ideals or methods, it was a resolution of the very character motivations and life events that lead them to become what they are.

It wasn't a resolution of the 'effects' but of the 'cause' itself and that is something I have never seen happen in any Batman and Superman story. It went to the core of the characters and changed them and made them better, instead of just resolving surface conflicts or disagreements and leaving the character intact.

Batman came back from the edge, became good again, realised that he had become the very thing he fought all his life, the aggressor, the killer, the attacker and was about to become the man who took a son away from his mother. The thing that made him Batman, was going to destroy him forever. But hearing his mother's name reminds him of this, snaps him back to reality and makes him see what he is doing and what he has become.

He doesn't just become good again, he manages to FINALLY come to terms with the loss he suffered for 30 years. By saving Martha, he can finally do something that allows him to feel like he can cope with his loss, which 20 years of fighting criminals and stopping evil couldn't do. It also brings faith back to him that what he did for 20 years wasn't a waste and that "what falls" ISN'T "fallen" permanently and that his life as Batman WASN'T just "a beautiful lie".

Superman's character is changed when he realises that Bruce became the villain of the piece only because the world pushed him till he broke and he realises this when Superman himself was about to break and felt that "No one stays good in this world". He understands that if he can even feel like that, then another man can definitely go down that path but that doesn't mean he's evil.

That's what changes in Superman, he goes from seeing the world in black and white, to shades of gray, which is how the world really is. He even saw himself and his role in the world and the world around him in black and white. But then he realises that even though his actions have negative consequences, he must never give up doing what's right. And in this case, he accepted that his actions against Batman without understanding him had caused Batman to want to fight him, and so he apologises to Batman and asks for his help instead of using his power to subdue him outright.

So that's how I see it. And what I saw in the movie was beautiful for me.

 

[Rapunzel]

Bravo, Lamboman. You just described why this film doesn't deserve the hate. This is a beautiful way of approaching the conflict, and you've eloquently explained why.

 

[LamboMan]

Bravo, Lamboman. You just described why this film doesn't deserve the hate. This is a beautiful way of approaching the conflict, and you've eloquently explained why.

Thank you! t:

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

Guess I'll add my two cents on this topic:

Before the movie came out I was completely expecting the battle between Batman and Superman to be a battle of ideals. Their ideals are the things that guide their methods and classically, in the comics and animated media, they have always disagreed on their methods.

This was definitely touched upon in the movie as a motivation for Superman to investigate Batman and want to stop him.

But in the end the resolution wasn't one of their ideals or methods, it was a resolution of the very character motivations and life events that lead them to become what they are.

It wasn't a resolution of the 'effects' but of the 'cause' itself and that is something I have never seen happen in any Batman and Superman story. It went to the core of the characters and changed them and made them better, instead of just resolving surface conflicts or disagreements and leaving the character intact.

Batman came back from the edge, became good again, realised that he had become the very thing he fought all his life, the aggressor, the killer, the attacker and was about to become the man who took a son away from his mother. The thing that made him Batman, was going to destroy him forever. But hearing his mother's name reminds him of this, snaps him back to reality and makes him see what he is doing and what he has become.

He doesn't just become good again, he manages to FINALLY come to terms with the loss he suffered for 30 years. By saving Martha, he can finally do something that allows him to feel like he can cope with his loss, which 20 years of fighting criminals and stopping evil couldn't do. It also brings faith back to him that what he did for 20 years wasn't a waste and that "what falls" ISN'T "fallen" permanently and that his life as Batman WASN'T just "a beautiful lie".

Superman's character is changed when he realises that Bruce became the villain of the piece only because the world pushed him till he broke and he realises this when Superman himself was about to break and felt that "No one stays good in this world". He understands that if he can even feel like that, then another man can definitely go down that path but that doesn't mean he's evil.

That's what changes in Superman, he goes from seeing the world in black and white, to shades of gray, which is how the world really is. He even saw himself and his role in the world and the world around him in black and white. But then he realises that even though his actions have negative consequences, he must never give up doing what's right. And in this case, he accepted that his actions against Batman without understanding him had caused Batman to want to fight him, and so he apologises to Batman and asks for his help instead of using his power to subdue him outright.

So that's how I see it. And what I saw in the movie was beautiful for me.

This is a very nice take LamboMan. You interpreted the film very differently from me which I really like! I especially liked how your motivations linked to the POV frames of characters. I also liked your idea of Batman projecting a loss onto someone he's trying to save.

Although regarding the bolded question, when did Superman apologize to Batman? I didn't catch that part anywhere and other have argued that Superman actively tries to subdue him (not kill) in order to explain to him about Lex's plan.

I think my main issue with the film is that it had lots of great ideas which would've made for great individual films but packed in so much that it kind of became a bloated mess for me. It was like 5 movies packed into one. I still very much loved parts of it, but the lack of focus on the politics of Superman, the lack of some really philosophically profound hard hitting commentary, and the motivation behind the titular fight being the kidnapping of Martha Kent and it lasting only 6 minutes really bothered me. Because in a way I was hoping to see classic Superman vs. classic Batman have an ideological confrontation about their perceptions of not only each other but the human species. Which was never fully explored IMO.

 

[LamboMan]

This is a very nice take LamboMan. You interpreted the film very differently from me which I really like! I especially liked how your motivations linked to the POV frames of characters. I also liked your idea of Batman projecting a loss onto someone he's trying to save.

Although regarding the bolded question, when did Superman apologize to Batman? I didn't catch that part anywhere and other have argued that Superman actively tries to subdue him (not kill) in order to explain to him about Lex's plan.

I think my main issue with the film is that it had lots of great ideas which would've made for great individual films but packed in so much that it kind of became a bloated mess for me. It was like 5 movies packed into one. I still very much loved parts of it, but the lack of focus on the politics of Superman, the lack of some really philosophically profound hard hitting commentary, and the motivation behind the titular fight being the kidnapping of Martha Kent and it lasting only 6 minutes really bothered me. Because in a way I was hoping to see classic Superman vs. classic Batman have an ideological confrontation about their perceptions of not only each other but the human species. Which was never fully explored IMO.

Thanks!

I can see where you're coming from and you have a valid point. Everybody, including me, wanted to see the ideological confrontation but I feel they gave us something better.

The part where Superman kind of apologises to Batman is when he says, "Bruce, please. I was wrong."

He does acknowledge that he was wrong, so I guess that's an apology?

 

[Wolfgangamadeus]

Thanks!

I can see where you're coming from and you have a valid point. Everybody, including me, wanted to see the ideological confrontation but I feel they gave us something better.

The part where Superman kind of apologises to Batman is when he says, "Bruce, please. I was wrong."

He does acknowledge that he was wrong, so I guess that's an apology?

Oh ok! that's what you meant! I was specifically replaying the film in my head to look for the word "sorry" LOL.

 

[Rapunzel]

Thank you! t:

No, thank you! You said everything I couldn't express. If you'd posted earlier, I could've saved time arguing with folks like Wolfgang.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Wolfgang is actually one of the better posters, I think. We disagree, but he's civil and will admit if he thinks you made a good point.

JL board is pretty reasonable overall.

 

[Rapunzel]

Wolfgang is actually one of the better posters, I think. We disagree, but he's civil and will admit if he thinks you made a good point.

JL board is pretty reasonable overall.

Agreed on both statements.

 

[Cats]

JL board is pretty reasonable overall.

Especially the Cavill thread lol. Love all the exchanges in here.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Especially the Cavill thread lol. Love all the exchanges in here.

What I love most is that whenever it does get a little tense of off-topic, someone just posts a pic of Cavill and we all unite over that lol.

 

[Jaxon]

This is a very nice take LamboMan. You interpreted the film very differently from me which I really like! I especially liked how your motivations linked to the POV frames of characters. I also liked your idea of Batman projecting a loss onto someone he's trying to save.

Although regarding the bolded question, when did Superman apologize to Batman? I didn't catch that part anywhere and other have argued that Superman actively tries to subdue him (not kill) in order to explain to him about Lex's plan.

I think my main issue with the film is that it had lots of great ideas which would've made for great individual films but packed in so much that it kind of became a bloated mess for me. It was like 5 movies packed into one. I still very much loved parts of it, but the lack of focus on the politics of Superman, the lack of some really philosophically profound hard hitting commentary, and the motivation behind the titular fight being the kidnapping of Martha Kent and it lasting only 6 minutes really bothered me. Because in a way I was hoping to see classic Superman vs. classic Batman have an ideological confrontation about their perceptions of not only each other but the human species. Which was never fully explored IMO.

A lot of people struggled with the leap you have to take with Batman, from what you know of him before. Even though the movie was at pains to point out how he got there, there is so much residual "baggage" with Batman fans about who he is that they couldn't make that leap. Even though in the end, once redeemed, he is a better person and more heroic Batman who can finally move forward with his life.

 

[Miss Lois Lane]

What I love most is that whenever it does get a little tense of off-topic, someone just posts a pic of Cavill and we all unite over that lol.

Allow me! It was his birthday yesterday, belated happy 33rd to you Henry

 

[Cats]

Allow me! It was his birthday yesterday, belated happy 33rd to you Henry

That smile

 

[Micromind]

Guess I'll add my two cents on this topic:

Before the movie came out I was completely expecting the battle between Batman and Superman to be a battle of ideals. Their ideals are the things that guide their methods and classically, in the comics and animated media, they have always disagreed on their methods.

This was definitely touched upon in the movie as a motivation for Superman to investigate Batman and want to stop him.

But in the end the resolution wasn't one of their ideals or methods, it was a resolution of the very character motivations and life events that lead them to become what they are.

Batman briefly speaks about why he acts like a brutal vigilante, why his methods are different, bit yeah, like you said, the movie does not focus too much about how they are different but rather on what is the common driving force that acts as the motivation.

Batman:" I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a reason. My parents taught me a different lesson, dying in the gutter for no reason at all... They taught me the world only makes sense if you force it to."

It wasn't a resolution of the 'effects' but of the 'cause' itself and that is something I have never seen happen in any Batman and Superman story. It went to the core of the characters and changed them and made them better, instead of just resolving surface conflicts or disagreements and leaving the character intact.

Batman came back from the edge, became good again, realised that he had become the very thing he fought all his life, the aggressor, the killer, the attacker and was about to become the man who took a son away from his mother. The thing that made him Batman, was going to destroy him forever. But hearing his mother's name reminds him of this, snaps him back to reality and makes him see what he is doing and what he has become.

He doesn't just become good again, he manages to FINALLY come to terms with the loss he suffered for 30 years. By saving Martha, he can finally do something that allows him to feel like he can cope with his loss, which 20 years of fighting criminals and stopping evil couldn't do. It also brings faith back to him that what he did for 20 years wasn't a waste and that "what falls" ISN'T "fallen" permanently and that his life as Batman WASN'T just "a beautiful lie".

Superman's character is changed when he realises that Bruce became the villain of the piece only because the world pushed him till he broke and he realises this when Superman himself was about to break and felt that "No one stays good in this world". He understands that if he can even feel like that, then another man can definitely go down that path but that doesn't mean he's evil.

That's what changes in Superman, he goes from seeing the world in black and white, to shades of gray, which is how the world really is. He even saw himself and his role in the world and the world around him in black and white. But then he realises that even though his actions have negative consequences, he must never give up doing what's right. And in this case, he accepted that his actions against Batman without understanding him had caused Batman to want to fight him, and so he apologises to Batman and asks for his help instead of using his power to subdue him outright.

So that's how I see it. And what I saw in the movie was beautiful for me.

Great post !

 

[LamboMan]

Batman briefly speaks about why he acts like a brutal vigilante, why his methods are different, bit yeah, like you said, the movie does not focus too much about how they are different but rather on what is the common driving force that acts as the motivation.

Batman:" I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a reason. My parents taught me a different lesson, dying in the gutter for no reason at all... They taught me the world only makes sense if you force it to."



Great post !

Thanks mate!

 

[Lone]

Wolfgang is actually one of the better posters, I think. We disagree, but he's civil and will admit if he thinks you made a good point.

Agreed. Zero snark, zero malice. I hope JL isn't as divisive to the fanbase. We ALL deserve a break from snapping at each other's neck.

 

[LamboMan]

Agreed. Zero snark, zero malice. I hope JL isn't as divisive to the fanbase. We ALL deserve a break from snapping at each other's neck.

Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!

 

[Lone]

Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!

I seriously wish they'd sneak that line in a JL movie(spoken by Barry maybe) or a proper MOS sequel.