The Dark Knight Rises How should the Gotham mob be used in Batman 3?

[Melkay]

very true, Hoffman is a master of his craft. But for some reason he just seems like a very safe choice. casting a thesp like Hollander would really throw everyone off their guard. But as it stands, Hollander is my top choice for Cobblepott with Hoffman a close second.

Do you want a good actor who can throw people off their guard? Cast Jason Alexander. That's the only true way of making a left-field casting, because both Hoffman and Hollander (sounds life a lawyer's Co.) have both exercised very similar roles to the Penguin. Alexander is a great comedic actor who has perfect physicality and a great emotion range. I'm sure he would be one of the best for the role, not because the role would be a comedic one, but because comedians (good ones) are proven thespians that have a lot of control on timing and self-control.

Jason Alexander is my man behind Hoffman.

 

[Melkay]

I think making The Riddler a Private Investigator would be a safer choice than making him a Fed. The Riddler wouldn't work as a Fed because hes not the type of guy to get physical. They could have a new Mayor who doesn't have Faith in the police, so he hires Nashton to find out who the Batman is.

Who says the Feds always have to get physical? Lots of them are in the bureau to act as strategists, profilers, lab work, desk work. A man like Nashton has surely a position that suits him like a glove.

Besides, Private Ivestigators not being physical? ?? Most famous ones in literature are. Ever head of Sam Spade? Phillip Marlowe? And I'm bringing fiction guys from the forties because that's the only way the concept works. See "Gone Baby, Gone" to realize that the Police never asks for the help of P.I., because they have an amazin amount of recources that freelancer just don't have and would really, really need. As a result, P.I.'s end up doing small jobs... infidelities, kidnappings... but for a big time job like catching the most resourceful number 1 public enemy... the BATMAN... no man, the most intelligent man on Earth can't do that without police resources: lab work, human resources, etc.

It just seems like one of those ideas that just look good on paper. If you put on film It wouldn't end up not really seem like The Riddler. It actually sounds like something Burton would have done if he made a 3rd Batman film.

?
This actually doesn't make any sense... you know that?

The riddler being a p.i. works better than him being a fed because it at least aligns with the character's inherent self-interest. Nigma signing up with washington to enforce the law is a real detrement to the tradition of his character.

Not at all, do you think everyone in the force is there to serve and protect? Why? Our Fed Nashton is there for personal gain, because he enjoys power, and exercising power. He enjoys controlling so many people, he enjoys proving he's the most intelligent, he enjoys the pride, he enjoys the competitive enviroment, he enjoys escalating in the job... he enjoys being the best.
Once he gets expelled from the FBI and targeted as an enemy, then we'll see a guy who wants to get rich to fund his riddler death traps and satisfy his interrogations. To find out the things he desperately wants to know.

Do you think this still detracts from the Edward we know? I don't think so. We all have to remember that Edward was an employee before becoming a super-villain, and that previous time can be exploited VERY well in the "Batman hunt" plot to characterize him. This is, by far, the best idea I've heard. And that's why people keep repeating it. It's good.

 

[Mastodon123]

Who says the Feds always have to get physical? Lots of them are in the bureau to act as strategists, profilers, lab work, desk work. A man like Nashton has surely a position that suits him like a glove.

Besides, Private Ivestigators not being physical? ?? Most famous ones in literature are. Ever head of Sam Spade? Phillip Marlowe? And I'm bringing fiction guys from the forties because that's the only way the concept works. See "Gone Baby, Gone" to realize that the Police never asks for the help of P.I., because they have an amazin amount of recources that freelancer just don't have and would really, really need. As a result, P.I.'s end up doing small jobs... infidelities, kidnappings... but for a big time job like catching the most resourceful number 1 public enemy... the BATMAN... no man, the most intelligent man on Earth can't do that without police resources: lab work, human resources, etc.





?
This actually doesn't make any sense... you know that?

Lets see...The Joker started out as a mobster, Catwoman started out as a woman that thrown out the window who got brought back to life by a cat, and the Penquin was abandoned by his parents because he was disfigured. You guys want the Riddler to start out a fed? That sounds like something that would be in a Burton Batman film to screw with the character. You don't see any drastic changes like that with any of the Villians in Nolan's Batman.

 

[Melkay]

Lets see...The Joker started out as a mobster, Catwoman started out as a woman that thrown out the window who got brought back to life by a cat, and the Penquin was abandoned by his parents because he was disfigured. You guys want the Riddler to start out a fed? That sounds like something that would be in a Burton Batman film to screw with the character. You don't see any drastic changes like that with any of the Villians in Nolan's Batman.

... Crane was a psychiatrist in Arkham and not a professor at Gotham's University. Ra's Al Ghul was Bruce's mentor and trainer and most likely mortal. The Joker applied make-up to his face, his skin was normal like ours, and his smile was not permanent but two big scars born from the corners of his mouth. Harvey Dent was scarred by fire instead of acid, the Joker was directly involved in that, Two-Face didn't have double personality, was mad at Batman and Gordon because they couldn't save his fiancee, and now is dead, killed by Batman himself.



We want Nashton's life as an employee before becoming the Riddler to change... his job would only be in the FBI, trying to get Batman. It's called synthesis. Why is that drastic?

 

[Tonicky]

The Mob never really dies so they should be in it, maybe some do what penguin dose and rat to bats.

 

[ronny]

His smile was not permanent but two big scars born from the corners of his mouth.

The Joker's smile was never permanent and was never meant to be so.
He is capable of other expressions in the comics.
Hell, he cries in one graphic novel.
No, he does not have a permanent smile. This is a misconception. Yes.

 

[Melkay]

True, thanks for the correction. Funny, though, that the same guy who had the Joker have the scarred smile was the one who made him cry.
I'm certainly not a fan of the crying part in "Joker".

 

[ronny]

I'm not a fan of that whole story. Joker skinning people alive? No thanks.

 

[kid dropper]

I can see not liking the book, but it was fresh, it had balls, I enjoyed the crying part, it made him all the more frightening, believable, and real. The drug use worked for me also. I know first hand the instability, sociopathy, mild schizophrenia and nihilism that constant drug use can bring, you do adopt a very Jokeresque persona at your higher points, and his bleak world view at your lowest points.

 

[ronny]

But it reduced this legendary character to the level of a two-bit addict.
It turned The Joker into a slave of the reefer man. And look what they did to The Riddler! They made him a cripple, what was that about?
It just seemed to be The Joker trudging from one killing to the next. It was not in tune with his character. More like a horror movie merged with gangster cliches.
Oh, and how they handled Two-Face was criminal.

 

[kid dropper]

well the riddler being a cripple was to justify the cane, because seriously, no one in real life who wants to be taken seriously bandies about a cane for the sake of fashion these days, unless they are pimps, who look pretty damn ridiculous anyway. Yeh i agree, the way that two-face was actually afraid of joker bothered me, i always liked harvey being the one guy who could always put joker in check. But like i said it wasnt for everyone. It was definitely one of the most disturbing, affecting, memorable comic experiences Ive had in a long time and for that i commend it, i should be getting my copy in the mail any second now actually. Oh, and i really liked silent Harley. more silent Harley, please.

 

[Melkay]

I'm not a fan of that whole story. Joker skinning people alive? No thanks.

Yeah, and the rape part was really too much for me. I think it was Crook who said that it seemed like trying too much to be the first story to do something: the first cry, the first rape, etc. Not my thing.

 

[Melkay]

I can see not liking the book, but it was fresh, it had balls, I enjoyed the crying part, it made him all the more frightening, believable, and real. The drug use worked for me also. I know first hand the instability, sociopathy, mild schizophrenia and nihilism that constant drug use can bring, you do adopt a very Jokeresque persona at your higher points, and his bleak world view at your lowest points.

Which is exactly my problem with the depiction. Extraordinary things can (and do) exist within reality, and the Joker doesn't need those things to be an extraordinary man. What I saw in that story was more of an ordinary and less of the brilliant, extraordinary mind we're familiar with. It's a valid thing, but it took the realism too far for my own taste. Great fFor a Law&Order episode, not so great for a Batman tale. Just saying...

Oh, and i really liked silent Harley. more silent Harley, please.

This I agree with.

 

[StorminNorman]

Oswald Cobblepot vs. Roman Sionis

'Nuff Said

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, and the rape part was really too much for me. I think it was Crook who said that it seemed like trying too much to be the first story to do something: the first cry, the first rape, etc. Not my thing.

I agree. Sexual crimes are NOT the Joker's style at all. Neither is skinning someone. That's something I could see a sicko like Zsasz doing.

 

[TheVelvetOnion]

Ok this is what i would do... The story would revolve around Gotham going through the credit crisis, which is a global event that would make the sequel topical. Wayne Enterprises has to cut back on funding research n several deparmtents thus causing the mobs to retalate. If i was to have a guess, Nigma's department is closed down so he becomes The Riddler out for revenge. The Black Mask was a board member of wayne enterprises that was given his redundancy offer, The Pengiun did hidden trading with wayne enterprises that was originally not seen by bruce but when he found out he stopped the trading and so The Pengiun ganes and enermy. Catwoman however would be involved slightly differently as she is someone who wants to work for Wayne enterprises because she cant afford to live in the world she likes so instead becomes a theaf.

 

[Alex Logan]

Ok this is what i would do... The story would revolve around Gotham going through the credit crisis, which is a global event that would make the sequel topical. Wayne Enterprises has to cut back on funding research n several deparmtents thus causing the mobs to retalate. If i was to have a guess, Nigma's department is closed down so he becomes The Riddler out for revenge. The Black Mask was a board member of wayne enterprises that was given his redundancy offer, The Pengiun did hidden trading with wayne enterprises that was originally not seen by bruce but when he found out he stopped the trading and so The Pengiun ganes and enermy. Catwoman however would be involved slightly differently as she is someone who wants to work for Wayne enterprises because she cant afford to live in the world she likes so instead becomes a theaf.

I don't know about this...

 

[kid dropper]

dude you got Schumacher syndrome, with all the villains being disgruntled Wayne employees ( see what he did to Freeze , Riddler, Ivy)

 

[StorminNorman]

For one - Edward's sir name should be Nashton, not Nigma.

Also Oswald's Ice Berg Lounge already exists in canon, so I hope to see that in this film.

 

[Melkay]

Oswald Cobblepot vs. Roman Sionis

'Nuff Said

DEFEATED RIDDLER IN BATMAN FOREVER: "Too many villains... too many villains..."

(seriously, it's too crowded alright, it would be hard to have such big characters at both sides of the mob war, both of them require decent characterization and exposition)

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea I agree with Melkay, it shouldn't be two main rogues at each side of the mob war.

Maybe Alberto Falcone could take control of the more traditional gangs and Black Mask or Penguin be in charge of the more freakish gangs. I'd prefer Black Mask for that sort of role. I think there is a lot of potential in the mob war route, especially if you have the Fed Riddler involved.

 

[Melkay]

I always had this doubt: What is the difference between "regular mob" and "freak mob"? I always thought the freak supervillains were extraordinary individuals, not group of people. Yeah, maybe a freak villain will hire some normal muscles and make them wear strange costumes, but beyond all the animated series, I don't think that really works.

1. In "Batman" the Joker had old fashioned thugs... maybe a little trendy, in tone with late eighties.
2. In "Returns", Penguin's guys were the freakiest of the freaks.. but well, they were a circus troup, and if you're going to create havoc in Gotham, why not do it in some of the most unconfortable clothing ever? (these people didn't get enough recognition, standing next to Burton's Penguin and trying to look freakier than him was no easy feat).
3. In "Forever", the Two-Face gang had a signature look, two-colored masks. They were actually pretty funny, at least it said that their boss didn't have any trouble with being remembered and having some fun along the way of complete chaos (reinforcing the critique that Jones' Two-Face was a not-so-distant relative of the Joker).
4. .... don't even get me started on the freeze hockey team and the cold-resistant-****es.

5. "Begins"... regular, old-fashioned thugs... with forgettable appearances but memorable faces and lines. ("Where are you??!!")
6. "Dark Knight" had the first freak gang and even had tons of rationalization for this: they didn't try to look lke crazies... they WERE crazies, straight down from Arkham. And if craziness wasn't your thing, they started you into it, having some wild "tryouts" and who knows what else. Even the clown masks had a purpose: hiding their identities, not allowing them to notice their boss among them doing some random inspection (or killing them one by one), and preparing a big coup for the grand finale: switching clown goons with innocent hostages (these guys weren't so crazy in the end!! Joker 1, Arkham 0).

So, I wonder, how are they going to top the Joker gang? Should they even top it? What is the best way to present a "freak gang" without having someone like the Riddler come in the scene with a bunch of guys dressed in green and say: "Yo, these are my buddies, they're total FREAKZZ... green rulz."

I would say... don't go back to gratuitous goon-dressing like the Two-Face gang from Forever. Keep the rationalizations. Don't make unnecessary costume designs if it's not a good portrayal of the villains psyche... if not even the Joker was crazy enough to have this guys around in clowns masks without 3 good reasons, then why other people should do it just for fun? Who in Gotham is crazier than the Joker?

And don't make the Penguin have his gang wear anything silly. He's classy and sophisticated, his goons should be old-fashioned, regular mobsters... not anything freaky. Leave the freak thugs to the actual freaks. The Penguin should be last remnant of the regular mob... he's looks and behaves just like them: he just happens to be much more cautios and cool-tempered, and has less scruples.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well thats why I think Black Mask is a better choice over Penguin. Black Mask is basically a gangster/cult leader. His gang could reflect that. His gang could be like a cult as well, completely devoted to him as though he is a god or something.

 

[Rasputin911]

I agree. Sexual crimes are NOT the Joker's style at all. Neither is skinning someone. That's something I could see a sicko like Zsasz doing.

He skinned the owner of a strip joint and then "tipped" him. There was dark humor involved (he "stripped" the guy and threw him onstage), which is very much the Joker's style.

And the rape wasn't for sexual satisfaction. It was to teach a subordinate a lesspn. Very twisted way of doing it, which again seems Joker-esque to me

 

[Rasputin911]

I agree. Sexual crimes are NOT the Joker's style at all. Neither is skinning someone. That's something I could see a sicko like Zsasz doing.

He skinned the owner of a strip joint and then "tipped" him. There was dark humor involved (he "stripped" the guy and threw him onstage), which is very much the Joker's style.

And the rape wasn't for sexual satisfaction. It was to teach a subordinate a lesson. Very twisted way of doing it, which again seems Joker-esque to me