How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by Frontier, Jun 14, 2013.

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"S" plastic shield vs broken neck.

  1. "S" shield, cool new power designed to kill powerless enemies.

  2. Broken neck to save a family and millions of future innocent lives.

  3. "S" shield, cool new power designed to kill powerless enemies.

  4. Broken neck to save a family and millions of future innocent lives.

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  1. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    Did Superman set a good example when he hurt a powerless Zod at the end of Superman 2 by crushing his hand and then throwing him. Zod was no stronger than a normal human at this point. Was it necessary for Superman to do this? Superman is supposed to be the best. Why couldn't he have just grabbed him and handed him over to the police without hurting him first? Should kids learn from how Superman handled that?
     
    #951
  2. Heretic

    Heretic Well-Known Member

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    Using superior strength to kill a weaker opponent should not be something that ANYONE finds inspiring...unless you're an MMA fighter training hard to kick someone else's butt. What about people who AREN'T the stronger opponent?

    Clark didn't rise to any challenge. He was the strongest person in the universe, and then used that advantage to win. He didn't outsmart the smarter man, he didn't out-strategize the better strategist. He didn't find victory in defeat (he killed a man he had down and in a headlock). He didn't find victory in a no-win situation. He did not have a strict moral code and then stick to it despite everything ad STILL win. He was the strongest guy in the room...and he killed his opponent with neck-breaking strength.

    I just don't see what is so inspiring about that.
     
    #952
  3. KalMart

    KalMart 239-Bean Irish Chili

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  4. PunyGod

    PunyGod Astronomer

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    That film had a more lighthearted tone so even when Superman did that we didn't think twice about it. I think the large part of the problem with MoS is he kills Zod in the most brutal way imaginable. If it happened another way maybe we wouldn't be so upset.

    And BTW there actually was a deleted scene that showed Zod and the others being taken into custody by the "arctic police" so they weren't killed after all.
     
    #954
  5. Heretic

    Heretic Well-Known Member

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    I hate Superman 2. Bad writing in the past does not excuse bad writing in the present. In fact, you'd think we'd learn from the mistakes of the past.

    The comics even stumbled around, Superman tortured women to get confessions! But eventually the comics figured out what the definitive Superman should be, and retconned the old stuff out. I understand that they recently have decided to embrace a darker Superman in preparation for this films release...but my point is that this just feels wrong for the character. EVERY OTHER character is like this...why can't the Big Blue Boy Scout actually be the shining example?
     
    #955
  6. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    A deleted scene. So now we have to refer to deleted scenes. When Superman 2 was released that was not the case and that is what millions of people saw and no one had an issue. Oh yea because it's light hearted. It's ok for Superman to hurt powerless people if it's in a light moment.
     
    #956
  7. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    That's fair, at least you are consistent and acknowledge the fault of that movie when so many seem to gloss right over it.
     
    #957
  8. Drewbee87

    Drewbee87 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! :)
     
    #958
  9. LostSon88

    LostSon88 Well-Known Member

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    Deleted scenes don't count.
     
    #959
  10. PunyGod

    PunyGod Astronomer

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    Basically yes. As I said this film decided to have him kill someone with his BARE HANDS in an incredibly brutal and shocking way. It creates a knee-jerk reaction of disgust among certain people in the audience. If Superman killed him in some indirect way like having a building fall on him and break his neck or throwing him into a volcano or something maybe there wouldn't be such a visceral reaction.
     
    #960
  11. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree. Zod's death was extremely jarring.
     
    #961
  12. LostSon88

    LostSon88 Well-Known Member

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    How would a building falling and/or throwing Zod into a volcano kill him exactly?
     
    #962
  13. PunyGod

    PunyGod Astronomer

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    I don't know. I'm just throwing some idea out there. I didn't think that superbeings could be killed by having their neck snapped either.
     
    #963
  14. LostSon88

    LostSon88 Well-Known Member

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    Well when it's another superhuman being doing it, yeah it's possible.
     
    #964
  15. Heretic

    Heretic Well-Known Member

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    Part of the reason why Zod's death was so jarring is because he clearly WANTED to die...and Superman obliged with brute force.
     
    #965
  16. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    It's disingenuous to a fault.
    The issue has always been about superman killing. "He's better than this, he's more moral than that..."

    You mean to tell this whole time it's actually been about the fashion he went about it?

    Please. So he can kill, just not in this particular fashion right?
     
    #966
  17. tomoe

    tomoe Well-Known Member

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    Maybe he wasn't killed. Never saw what happened to his "body" afterwards. :p
     
    #967
  18. PunyGod

    PunyGod Astronomer

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    No, I still don't think he should kill at all. I'm just saying that if it happened in another way people may have overlooked it just like they did in SupermanII. And just like they overlooked it in BB when Bruce seemed to think he wasn't breaking his one rule by letting Ras die. I don't agree but it didn't seem to bother most people in the audience.

    I guess what I'm saying is they could have had Superman kill someone in a way that wouldn't have caused this much controversy. But controversy is obviously what they wanted.
     
    #968
  19. Daybreak_st

    Daybreak_st Old-School Comic Cool

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    Everything you posted is perfect. You get the character of Superman, what he stands foor whhat he believes in etc. I'm convinced that the filmmakers only understtand hhim in the most basic form a nice guy with amazing powers. Its funny because with Superman Returns we had a filmmaker who loved the character but only a veryspecific iteration of the chharacter so his film was bogged down in nostalgia. With man of steel we had a writwr who admitted to not really being into Superman who basically felt the character needed to be reinvented and changed to work in a modern context. They wanted to make him cool at any cost. Goyer loved Batman and it shhoowed in his writing of Begins. Its the mostt definitive version of the character on screen. He didnt love superman and that showed too
     
    #969
  20. KalMart

    KalMart 239-Bean Irish Chili

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    It was an interesting discussion. I had a few hypothetical ideas...

    http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=22857915&highlight=funeral#post22857915
     
    #970
  21. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    All this cause they(all of them) wanted to deconstruct why superman is superman in a more tangible way?

    They wanted to make him cool
    who knew.

    Hey johnny?
    -Why does tony stark have a no killing rule? Oh right he doesn't.
    -Why does Wolverine have a no killing rule? Oh right he doesn't.
    -Why does Cap? Oh righ....
    -Why does Batman? Cause his parents were murdered and he sore to protect life. He also came face to face with the murder and felt empty at the prospect of taking his life. Any fool can see this.

    -Why does superman have a no killing rule? Because his parents taught him better?
     
    #971
  22. PunyGod

    PunyGod Astronomer

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    Correct
     
    #972
  23. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    Getting people talking about the character is what they wanted. That's not the same as "they wanted controversy".

    So if they killed off zod in a playful way with light hearted music playing and people smiling and cracking jokes like a marvel movie, or rather superman 2 then we wouldn't be having this discussion?

    if that's so I praise them for having the guts to give the scene and the matter the gravitas it deserved.
     
    #973
  24. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    yea i thought so.
    care to explain why that's objectively(if possible) better than this alternative?

    And how the change destroys the character(if you think it does).
     
    #974
  25. Eros

    Eros Well-Known Member

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    I always figured supes new as powerful as he was, He could never afford to cross that line, could you imagine if superman tried to force a tyrannical brand of justice on his enemies, killing bad guys he deems to dangerous......doesn't that make him a god? Killing is easy, finding away to stop is hard.
     
    #975
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