How the vulture would have played into the story

[Spider-Fan]

What was the example that Harry set that Peter ended up learning from? Peter never killed Norman, there was nothing to learn from that. Harry was the hard headed one who refused to listen to and believe Pete. Pete never did anything wrong.



So what Topher wants, Topher gets? Who the H E DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS is Topher to be insisting on anything?!

Harry let his vendetta go, much like Peter does when he forgives the Sandman. That was the example.

As for Topher, HE'S FOREMAN!!!

Or Brock, sir. Edward Brock Jr.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Harry let his vendetta go, much like Peter does when he forgives the Sandman.

Not really. Harry only let go of his vendetta because Bernard pointed out how Norman killed himself. Harry never did any soul searching. The Bernard scene should never have been in the movie, this way, we can really see Harry grow as a character as he would have to trust and believe in Pete's word. Lame plot device by Raimi.

IMO, Pete learned nothing from Harry.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Not really. Harry only let go of his vendetta because Bernard pointed out how Norman killed himself. Harry never did any soul searching. The Bernard scene should never have been in the movie, this way, we can really see Harry grow as a character as he would have to trust and believe in Pete's word. Lame plot device by Raimi.

IMO, Pete learned nothing from Harry.

Ummm...Peter wasn't there with them. Harry just comes for all he knows.

Also, did Harry have to believe Bernard? No, he could have denied it and let Peter die, but he doesn't. He helps, and lets go of his vendetta.

Remember, you have to be in the room to know that. Or watching the screen, lol.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Ummm...Peter wasn't there with them. Harry just comes for all he knows.

Also, did Harry have to believe Bernard? No, he could have denied it and let Peter die, but he doesn't. He helps, and lets go of his vendetta.

True, but it did match up the story that his best friend kept telling him over and over, LOL. Besides, I still feel it shows much more character development to have Harry search within and finally take Pete's word then having someone like Bernard tell his story and "showing" Harry the right path for him.

Remember, you have to be in the room to know that. Or watching the screen, lol.

Haha.

 

[The Joker]

Well you guys can think what you want but I got all my facts from a book about the process of making the movie. Sam Raimi didnt know much about the character when he was suggested nor did most of the crew so they all read up on him. Sam grew a level of respect for venom after reading about him but thought he lacked the level of humanity of some other spidey villains. When alvin sargent wrote the venom script sam really started to like venom. Then after that sam and ivan raimi started making revisions on the venom script. So sam didnt have any real problems with venom he wasnt forced to use him so doc ock whether you want to believe it or not sam in the end did want venom in the movie. I got my facts from a book where did you get your info about him not wanting venom in spidey 3?

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20035285_20035331_20037557,00.html

 

[Spider-Fan]

True, but it did match up the story that his best friend kept telling him over and over, LOL. Besides, I still feel it shows much more character development to have Harry search within and finally take Pete's word then having someone like Bernard tell his story and "showing" Harry the right path for him.

It would have shown more character development (I agree with you on that), but Harry still had to make a choice. While soul searching would have been good to see, Harry still had to make that choice and accept what happend. Harry getting the information from Bernard doesn't diminish his sacrafice, especially to Peter who doesn't know.

 

[Venom'sDad]

But you got it wrong. Avi didnt force anything on anyone. What happened was once the theme of the movie was figured out and once the original vulture script was finished the whole team including sam started to notice that it would be hard find a way to connect the vulture to peter parker and because of this venom was brought up due to the fact that it would bring eddie into the story and it would be easy to connect him to peter. In the end it was the whole team that thought the venom story was better so I wish people stop thinking venom was forced in by avi arad.

Sorry dude, but you are completely wrong. Avi strongly impressed heavily that Sam put Venom in the movie. Sam said in late 2004/early 2005, that him, his brother, and Alvin had already wrote the story to Spidey 3. Alvin was already in the mist of writing the Screen play based off the story they wrote by the summer 05, even after Topher was announced to join the cast that May. That's why rumors came out by AICN, SHH, Sony websites that he was either Electro or Chameleon. They was looking at Larry David to play the role of Vulture as early as Dec 2004 and was reported in Feb 2005, but conflicts to David schedule prevented him from accepting the role, so they looked at Miguel Ferrer. But Sam coward down to Avi and we got a rushed Venom. Sam Raimi & Co. had to re-write the whole story and Alvin re-write more than half of the screen-play tweaking much of it to fit the new story. This is why Dallas Howard and Cromwell was cast at the last minute in late Jan 2006... weeks before primary shooting began. Sam said countless of time in many nice ways he could say it, that he detest Eddie Brock/Venom. He thought Eddie had no foundation to his character and thought Venom was a hollow villain with no real purpose. He did not want to do that character and hated Avi interfering with what he wanted to... which he said was to merely introduce Eddie Brock much like he introduce Connors. But Sam should get some of the blame because his heart was not into doing Venom. He should have either never done him and tell Avi to go play with himself or done him right and give us something we could be happy with.

I'd just like to point out that it is ridiculous that Sam Raimi sat down and hated the character of Veno mso much that he went out of his way to make him an afterthought in the script and think to himself "Mwhahahahaha! Those fanboys will pay for getting involved through the producers with my movie! I hate you Venom, I hate you!!!! Bahhhhhh!"

Agreed. The only thing Sam did purposely was not put his heart into doing Brock/Venom.

 

[drmick]

P.S.

He killed Venom because

1) Sony said no cliffhangers and dangling plot threads. They want it as a nice wraped up trilogy with a pretty bow on it. So if Tobey, Sam and Kirsten don't come back they can cut from these three movies cleanly. All though I personally think marriage is still dnagling, but whatever.

2) It was important thematically that Brock be beyond redemption. Harry finds peacea nd redemption and by learning from Harry's example Peter has to forgive Flint Marko or he'll end up like the Venom character. A reflection of himself, twisted by his slefish need and consumption for vengence. His death was Peter destroying the darkness in himself. It needed to happen.

3) Topher Grace insisted upon it.

Again, quit thinking "He hates the character and that's why he's dead! WHAAAA!"

Seriously.

I have never once read or heard of point 3.

Although as an up and coming Hollywood actor I could understand his motivation if it were true.

Source?

 

[DACrowe]

He was asked in some interview press junket about Veon'ms fate and he said he insisted that the character be dealt with like that because he needed to be punished, for he never learns a lesson. Unlike Peter or Harry he doesn't grow, but chooses to be bad.

I forget which one, but I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

 

[Toxin72]

Sorry dude, but you are completely wrong. Avi strongly impressed heavily that Sam put Venom in the movie. Sam said in late 2004/early 2005, that him, his brother, and Alvin had already wrote the story to Spidey 3. Alvin was already in the mist of writing the Screen play based off the story they wrote by the summer 05, even after Topher was announced to join the cast that May. That's why rumors came out by AICN, SHH, Sony websites that he was either Electro or Chameleon. They was looking at Larry David to play the role of Vulture as early as Dec 2004 and was reported in Feb 2005, but conflicts to David schedule prevented him from accepting the role, so they looked at Miguel Ferrer. But Sam coward down to Avi and we got a rushed Venom. Sam Raimi & Co. had to re-write the whole story and Alvin re-write more than half of the screen-play tweaking much of it to fit the new story. This is why Dallas Howard and Cromwell was cast at the last minute in late Jan 2006... weeks before primary shooting began. Sam said countless of time in many nice ways he could say it, that he detest Eddie Brock/Venom. He thought Eddie had no foundation to his character and thought Venom was a hollow villain with no real purpose. He did not want to do that character and hated Avi interfering with what he wanted to... which he said was to merely introduce Eddie Brock much like he introduce Connors. But Sam should get some of the blame because his heart was not into doing Venom. He should have either never done him and tell Avi to go play with himself or done him right and give us something we could be happy with. Agreed. The only thing Sam did purposely was not put his heart into doing Brock/Venom.

I have given facts from the book that Ive already listed numerous times that show that avi didnt force anything on anyone. Also it was sir ben kingsley that they wanted to play the vulture. He was basically cast before they left the vulture script for the venom script. Also Sam is not going to purposely screw up his movie because he isnt the biggest fan of venom so you guys need to get that out of your head. Thanks to doc ock for showing me the interview. I do believe its possible that grant curtis left some stuff like that out of his book as he says that in a meeting the name venom was just brought up (he doesnt say by who.) He also says that before any consideration at all went in to using him everyone had to read up on venom. By the time it came to choose what scripts to use (between vulture and venom) EVERYONE on the team insisted that the venom scripts brought more to the movie than the vulture script EVERYONE including sam raimi. I dont remember the exact quote but ivan raimi loved venom saying "that it was easier for him and sam to connect eddie to peter and he made for a more satisfying villain."

 

[Toxin72]

He was asked in some interview press junket about Veon'ms fate and he said he insisted that the character be dealt with like that because he needed to be punished, for he never learns a lesson. Unlike Peter or Harry he doesn't grow, but chooses to be bad.

I forget which one, but I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

You are right DACrowe but it was already in the script that whoever the final battle villain was would die long before topher or even sir ben kingsley were thought to be cast. Vulture would have died if he was used and venom was going to die if they used him. If avi arad had the kind of control some people suggest he did then he would have asked sam to change the script so venom wouldnt die.

 

[Blader5489]

I have never once read or heard of point 3.

Although as an up and coming Hollywood actor I could understand his motivation if it were true.

Source?

"How do you feel about the way the film ended for Venom? [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I felt pretty strongly that it should be that way. We had a lot of conversations about that. I think out of all the Spider-Man villains, he needs to be punished. The movie's about choices and he made bad choices. I thought it was very important to the film, especially because Sandman's on a very different journey and it highlights how different those two journeys are."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Source
[/FONT]

EDIT - I noticed that there a lot of people making assumptions/criticisms about Raimi's use from Venom. Here's an excerpt where he sums up why Venom was used the way that he was (from that same article):

"Was there ever a desire to extend the Venom storyline because he's such a big character in the comic?

Yes. The Venom storyline, unfortunately, has Eddie Brock and the establishment of who he is and what he is. Then symbiote coming to Peter Parker first. And then you've got to go through his entire getting of the black suit, the dark Peter, and getting rid of the black suit before it even gets to Eddie Brock. So the very nature of that story demands a two-parter if you want to spend more time with Venom, which I didn't think was very fair to the audience. I thought about it. I really did, and I kept reading the fans' e-mails that Avi would send me saying, "They'd better not introduce him just to tease us." I felt that the fans didn't want that. They want Venom, just give them Venom already. But obviously through the very nature of this movie, he's only going to be in half an act or one act. I just made it as thorough and as best I could and delivered Venom in the most complete way the fans might want. That was my desire. I was led there."

 

[ronzpeed]

Sorry dude, but you are completely wrong. Avi strongly impressed heavily that Sam put Venom in the movie. Sam said in late 2004/early 2005, that him, his brother, and Alvin had already wrote the story to Spidey 3. Alvin was already in the mist of writing the Screen play based off the story they wrote by the summer 05, even after Topher was announced to join the cast that May. That's why rumors came out by AICN, SHH, Sony websites that he was either Electro or Chameleon. They was looking at Larry David to play the role of Vulture as early as Dec 2004 and was reported in Feb 2005, but conflicts to David schedule prevented him from accepting the role, so they looked at Miguel Ferrer. But Sam coward down to Avi and we got a rushed Venom. Sam Raimi & Co. had to re-write the whole story and Alvin re-write more than half of the screen-play tweaking much of it to fit the new story. This is why Dallas Howard and Cromwell was cast at the last minute in late Jan 2006... weeks before primary shooting began. Sam said countless of time in many nice ways he could say it, that he detest Eddie Brock/Venom. He thought Eddie had no foundation to his character and thought Venom was a hollow villain with no real purpose. He did not want to do that character and hated Avi interfering with what he wanted to... which he said was to merely introduce Eddie Brock much like he introduce Connors. But Sam should get some of the blame because his heart was not into doing Venom. He should have either never done him and tell Avi to go play with himself or done him right and give us something we could be happy with. Agreed. The only thing Sam did purposely was not put his heart into doing Brock/Venom.

The Vulture is probably the most hollow Spiderman villain.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I have given facts from the book that Ive already listed numerous times that show that avi didnt force anything on anyone. Also it was sir ben kingsley that they wanted to play the vulture. He was basically cast before they left the vulture script for the venom script. Also Sam is not going to purposely screw up his movie because he isnt the biggest fan of venom so you guys need to get that out of your head. Thanks to doc ock for showing me the interview. I do believe its possible that grant curtis left some stuff like that out of his book as he says that in a meeting the name venom was just brought up (he doesnt say by who.) He also says that before any consideration at all went in to using him everyone had to read up on venom. By the time it came to choose what scripts to use (between vulture and venom) EVERYONE on the team insisted that the venom scripts brought more to the movie than the vulture script EVERYONE including sam raimi. I dont remember the exact quote but ivan raimi loved venom saying "that it was easier for him and sam to connect eddie to peter and he made for a more satisfying villain."

That is a couple of reasons why I think Venom worked out so much better than the Vulture would have. He's got a much more useful storyline than the Vulture ever had. Even in the Comics, Venom had a huge and great Storyline that was far better than the Vultures. I really am glad that even though Sam isn't a huge Fan of Venom, he knew that Venoms storyline would make for a much better Villian than The Vulture would have. As for Eddie and Peter connecting, I think that works out perfectley and it shows that on film with the moments and competition in the eyes of both Peter and Brock. Venom hating the Character doesn't mean he won't do the Character the right way and he proved that with Venom in this film. Sure Sam never like Venom and probably will never be a huge Fan of Him but Venom was done right and I absoloutley loved it.

 

[DACrowe]

Brock's a pretty lame character in the comics to be fair. I think both TAS and the the movie Spider-Man 3 did him better than the comics.

His motivation is weak and has been added and retconned at least three times to try and make up for its crappiness and it still doesn't quite work and his consistant shifting from villain to anti-hero to killer to savior wasn't complex. It was shallow and showed a character that was more popular for his visual appeal.

He was written to be the unstoppable force that...well Spider-Man would eventually stop. I can understand why that bored Sam Raimi.

He instead took the concept of the TAS Eddie Brock and transformed him into a dopplenganger of Peter and gave him stronger motivations and just explored the character better.

Despite his death, I think Sam Raimi's shortlived Venom is a better character than the one we've been treated to in the comics for the last near 20 years. Really.

 

[Toxin72]

I agree that the movie venom is one of the best versions of venom we've had in a very long while. I dont understand the hate for movie venom because he is for all intents and purposes just like comic venom with a little more motivation added for him to go after spidey. While I personally wouldnt mind seeing the vulture in a spider-man movie Im happy the chose venom over the vulture for this movie.

 

[Toxin72]

I would also like to add that the day I went to see spider-man 3 was like a fanboys dream come true for me. I went in there knowing there were complaints and hearing that no justice was done for venom but when I left the theater I was so amazed. I remember thinking to myself that venom was exactly how I hoped a movie venom would always be. Sure they added a little to eddie brocks story beforehand but I thought the changes were for the better. To me venom was one of the most faithful comic book to movie transitions I had seen and I was shocked when I got on the internet that night and saw all the venom bashing topics at IMDb and here in the venom thread. I thought the people that complained must have seen spider-man 3 the uwe bole version or something.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

IMO, TAS Venom is the best Brock/Venom, certainly much better than the subpar Brock/Venom we got in Spider-Man 3. I cared more for the animated Brock than I did for the flimsy and underdeveloped character in SM3. Here are the main problems I had: 1. The fact that Brock and Venom were barely in it/lack of development of the character. 2. Brock's downfall.

A couple of scenes in particular come to mind, at the battle royale where Venom confronts Peter and says "Do you remember how you humiliated me? Now I'm gonna humiliate you."(something like that) Here's the problem, IMO, we should be able to understand where Brock is coming from but when you think about it, Brock created his own mess by faking those pics, so why do we care about him and HOW IN THE HELL COULD HE BE UPSET THAT PETER OUTED HIM. He did something wrong and Peter was his competition for the staff job for god's sake!! He says to Peter at the Bugle, "Please don't do this, I'm begging you, I will lose everything". Why would Peter not do that? Did he really expect Peter to keep his mouth shut while he gets the staff job in a cheating manner?!?

And if I remember correctly, in the comics isn't Brock investigating a story about the Sin Eater and he thinks he has the right killer? Then Spider-Man finds the actual killer and Brock is made out to look like a chump? I don't need an exact carbon copy of that but the premise is great. Brock thought he actually had something, didn't fake anything and then Spider-Man actually ends up with the actual story. That's humiliation! That is so much more compelling than the fake pics weak @$$ story that we got in Spider-Man 3.

That's the meat of the problem for me with Brock/Venom in SM3, he was not compelling at all. I could care less about him. He just always seemed like a throw in villain and in the end felt like a waste of a character. Completely disappointing to me.

 

[Spiderine]

IMO, TAS Venom is the best Brock/Venom, certainly much better than the subpar Brock/Venom we got in Spider-Man 3. I cared more for the animated Brock than I did for the flimsy and underdeveloped character in SM3. Here are the main problems I had: 1. The fact that Brock and Venom were barely in it/lack of development of the character. 2. Brock's downfall.

A couple of scenes in particular come to mind, at the battle royale where Venom confronts Peter and says "Do you remember how you humiliated me? Now I'm gonna humiliate you."(something like that) Here's the problem, IMO, we should be able to understand where Brock is coming from but when you think about it, Brock created his own mess by faking those pics, so why do we care about him and HOW IN THE HELL COULD HE BE UPSET THAT PETER OUTED HIM. He did something wrong and Peter was his competition for the staff job for god's sake!! He says to Peter at the Bugle, "Please don't do this, I'm begging you, I will lose everything". Why would Peter not do that? Did he really expect Peter to keep his mouth shut while he gets the staff job in a cheating manner?!?

And if I remember correctly, in the comics isn't Brock investigating a story about the Sin Eater and he thinks he has the right killer? Then Spider-Man finds the actual killer and Brock is made out to look like a chump? I don't need an exact carbon copy of that but the premise is great. Brock thought he actually had something, didn't fake anything and then Spider-Man actually ends up with the actual story. That's humiliation! That is so much more compelling than the fake pics weak @$$ story that we got in Spider-Man 3.

That's the meat of the problem for me with Brock/Venom in SM3, he was not compelling at all. I could care less about him. He just always seemed like a throw in villain and in the end felt like a waste of a character. Completely disappointing to me.

Damn....Flawless, I could not have said it better. You hit the nail on the head. Ups

 

[Spiderine]

Anyone who was happy with this Brock, Simply enjoyed the eye candy of seeing Venom. Quote the Raven Nothing more.

 

[Spiderine]

The Vulture is probably the most hollow Spiderman villain.

He is a criminal. He commits crimes. What more purpose does he need.

 

[Blader5489]

Here's the problem, IMO, we should be able to understand where Brock is coming from but when you think about it, Brock created his own mess by faking those pics, so why do we care about him and HOW IN THE HELL COULD HE BE UPSET THAT PETER OUTED HIM. He did something wrong and Peter was his competition for the staff job for god's sake!!

Uh... that's kind of the point. Brock lacks the sense of responsibility that Peter has (which he tries to compensate with an outgoing personality), so when something bad actually happens in his life, Brock shifts the blame to others instead of taking responsibility for his own mistakes.

 

[Toxin72]

Anyone who was happy with this Brock, Simply enjoyed the eye candy of seeing Venom. Quote the Raven Nothing more.

Im sorry but that has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. To say that someone liking brock in the movie just because of the way venom looked is just stupid. Brock has more motivation in the movie for hating peter. In the comic spider-man didnt even do anything to brock intentionally but in the movie spider-man broke brocks camera which provoked him to make the fake pics. Even though we get very little brock in the movie he is still more developed than he was in the comics.

 

[SlyGuyTtjn]

For those of you who thinks the Vulture story is better... It's not. He just can't hate Peter THAT MUCH, and it's not good for the theme of Spider-man 3. Let me put it this wayy.. Who votes for this guy?

OR Who votes for this kickass guy?

'Nuff said.

 

[Victarion]

The reason Eddie was so upset about that eensy-weensy humiliation was because he had a judgmental complex and blew things way out of proportion. That I liked.