What if Venom hadn't replaced Vulture?

Discussion in 'Spider-Man 1, 2 & 3' started by Juggernaut33, Feb 14, 2008.

  1. Juggernaut33 Registered

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    Just think about it. What if Vulture had been maintained as the second vilain. No more symbiote. No more black suit. No more dancing Peter Parker. No More Eddie 'Eric Forman goes crazy' Brock. No more Venom. No more Gwen Stacy.

    The plot would have been much more fluid. Adrian Toomes would have been there at the beginning. He would have been Flint Makor's cellmate. The rest of the movie would have focused on the confrontation between Spider-Man and Sandman, and the personnal issues of Peter Parker (love triangle). And then, after being defeated by Spider-Man, Sandman would have gone to prison to free Adrian Toomes (he uses a set of wings that he built with objects find in prison to escape). The two vilains would have teamed up to complicate the task of Spider-Man in the third act.

    What do you think? Would that have made a better film?
     
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  2. TomPiltoff you are all diseased

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    Absolutely it would have.
     
  3. DoctorJones Registered

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    Vulture is not as interesting a villain as Venom. You can argue about the execution, but I feel Raimi made the right choice in having Venom define Spidey's dark side, and replacing his original "other girl" character with Gwen.
     
  4. Jick Auxiliary Assistant

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    Vulture is not thrilling or exciting.
    not a good villain for movies, at all.
    the problem of SM3 wasn't Venom. it was the way things were handle. it's the way it was writen and led by the director.
     
  5. Juggernaut33 Registered

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    IMO, Vulture would have been better for a couple of reasons:

    First, Topher Grace vs. Ben Kingsley. One would have been able to perform his character just fine and maybe bring more to it and the other...didn't.

    Second, the Vulture fited the story. It didn't need a whole story like Eddie Brock. His plot was just useless. They say it added competition for Peter Parker. What competition? Jameson wants an incriminating picture of Spidey. One knows that Spidey would never do something incriminating. Peter isn't getting the pic, Eddie isn't getting the pic. End of the challenge. The photoshop thing was there for 10 secondes. That was just ridiculous.

    For me, the Vulture woud have worked better because he was pure evil compared to Sandman and I like the idea of Adrian and Flint being cellmates. Their association would have made more sense than the way Venom and Sandman teamed up in the film.

    I think the Vulture would have been better. Better actor. Coherence.
     
  6. Spider-ManHero12 Web-Slinger

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    Personally, I think the Vulture should be in the 5th Spidey film. That's another story though.

    Anyway, I think the film still would have been fantastic if Vulture was in the film. However, I still think Venom adds even more to the coolness of the film.
     
  7. Venom 1988 formerly Ultimate_Venom

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    Absolutely. Regardless about how people feel about the villain, the movie overall would have been much better.

    You should of seen of all the people b!tching back in 05 when it was revealed that Sandman was going to be the villian and how plain and uniteresting he is. Now all those people and their mother seem to love him. Same thing would have happened with Vulture.

    There were too many storylines, so in turn yea it was Venom. Fanboys moaned for him, producers wanted him in and instead of getting a fluid seemless storyline, we got several disjointed ones that all came crashing together at the end. And Kingsly would done an excellant job being "Exciting and thrilling".

    Exactly, Vulture would have been part of Sandman's story so the team up would have made more sense and it would have flow well together. Basically you would be taking out all the stuff about the symbiote, Gwen, "Evil Peter", Brock and Venom and would just be adding another element to the main story at hand.
     
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  8. TLH Hypnotized

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    QFT. I read about how the Vulture would've fit into the film in the "Making of Spider-Man 3" book. It definitely served a much better purpose.

    Plus, how awesome would it have been to see Toomes say something reminiscent of Doc Ock's line in Spider-Man 2?

    "You have a crane to catch"
     
  9. Killing Joke926 Registered

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    It would have added maybe 1 or 2 razzie awards more.:whatever:
     
  10. Victarion Iron Captain

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    How would it add razzie awards?

    I think it would still seem crowded in terms of villains, but the plot probably would flow better.

    The best course would have been this:

    Sandman is a thug who goes on a powertrip. Harry is the main threat as the Green Goblin 2. Spider-Man demonstrates his brainpower by coming up with a serum to depower Marko, thus using brains to overcome extreme brawn.
     
  11. Jick Auxiliary Assistant

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    the movie didnt do good because it wasn't executed good. and not simply because of Venom.
    and an old guy in Vulture tights? I pass.
     
  12. Venom 1988 formerly Ultimate_Venom

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    Yes because they planned for him to look exactly like he did in the comics, green spandex and all. :whatever:

    Based from the early concept, most likely they would have gone with something like the MKSM look

    [​IMG]
     
  13. DoctorJones Registered

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    Hehe, much as I liked Church's performance, I would still have dumped him for a movie with only the other two villains.
     
  14. Juggernaut33 Registered

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    Venom was holding the story back. They had to introduce the symbiote, Eddie Brock, Gwen Stacy, the black suit, the evil Peter Parker, the symbiote bounding with Eddie Brock, etc.

    What room did it leave for Sandman? I was watching the movie yesterday. Sandman is the most interesting character in the piece and we hardly see him! All that because the plot is waaaayyyyy too fat. The fact is that the success of the Spider-Man movies (1 & 2) always came from the fact that the storyline was kept really simple. Peter's story and the vilain's story. No too heavy. No too dumb. Just the right amount. Nobody could have handled all these storylines well. They had nothing in commun. There were so many of them that at one point, they all felt so meaningless.

    Vulture wouldn't have wear tights. Do you think the art departement would have been dumb enough to put Sir Ben Kingsley in tights.This is the Vulture from Spider-Man 3:

    [​IMG]

    Much like Doc Ock.
     
  15. Stevens25 Guest

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    I find the whole symbiote/Venom story much more interesting than anything else from the movies or comics. I'm sure that the film wouldn't have been as successful without them,though,because we all know that most people were really looking forward to this. Even if you weren't a Spidey fan just seeing him the the black suit is enough to peak someone's interest. That being said,the symbiote story requires much more development and when you add the Peter vs. Harry battles,MJ's career,Gwen;etc,etc.,...it was just too much. Venom was ruined because of the clutter,and so was Sandman. But having Vulture in it would still have been 1 villain too many. As I've said,Venom needs more development that Vulture,but just having Harry and Sandman in it,and Peter getting the symbiote would've been enough for me.
     
  16. matthooper Registered

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    As long as they would not have used the symbiote in any way shape or form, Vulture would have been a far better choice.

    The symbiote storyline simply didn't fit the Raimi saga.

    It should have been simple. Sandman, Vulture, and GG2, and at the end Harry joins Pete to take out Sandy and Vulture. We still could have had Peter being full of himself with all the public fanfare and still had some of he relationship conflict between Pete and MJ. The studio and Arad ruined a great franchise and we'll probably never get it back. Raimi should have put his foot down said no and threatened to leave.
     
  17. Blader5489 CASUAL SEX!

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    Having the Vulture instead of Venom would have probably made for a better movie, but I'm not sure there would have been a huge draw for it. Sandman and Vulture aren't as marketable as Venom, after all.
     
  18. matthooper Registered

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    True, and I didn't really have a problem with Venom himself. I just hate the black suit stuff. It was rushed, incoherrent, corny, and lazy. It just didn't work for me.

    When I watch the film now, I watch the first Harry and Pete fight, the crane sequence, the Sandman armored car scene, some additional Harry stuff, and the final battle. That's about it. The black suit stuff doesn't exist for me.
     
  19. TLH Hypnotized

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    The initial domestic draw for Spider-Man 3 still would have been massive. In fact, I would argue that the film, when all was said and done domestically, would've made more than $337 million, if the film has been improved (i.e: better script, Vulture as a villain) simply because people would want to to see it more than once or twice.

    I only saw Spider-Man 3 once in theaters, hated it, and never went back. Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 I saw 3-5 times each. It has absolutely no redeeming features (in my eyes) and has no rewatchablility even for a time-killer.

    The casual fans of the films didn't return as much; they simply didn't find the film as good.

    on topic though...

    Toomes was apparently supposed to have been caught in between Spider-Man 2 and 3 by Spidey and jailed. This explains his hatred towards Spider-Man, which was supposed to be shown/explained in a flashback. Also, I remember reading that the crane sequence was supposed to be caused by the Vulture in the original story outline.
     
  20. Shmoil Registered

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    Haha, is this really a question? Of course it would have been better, it would have been much much better. The only time Venom has ever had a good storyline was in the 90's Animated series, where Eddie was built up, the suit was given time to affect Peter, and then Venom was there for a little while before being gone. He shouldn't have even come back later in the series, that storyline was awful. I've never read a good Venom story in the comics, other than MAYBE his original appearance.

    Vulture would have been far better, the movie would have been a hundred times smoother, the plots would have actually not gotten in the way of each other, and the movie would have been watchable. I don't think it would have made nearly as much money without Venom, he was a huge publicity draw. Everyone knows who Venom is, but they never seem to be able to point out any good Venom stories. I would much rather have a good movie than a box-office record breaker.
     
  21. GoldGoblin Registered

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    If SM3 didn't have the symbiote or Venom at all,and the Vulture was in it then the movie could of been like this:

    -Harry made as the Hobgoblin(not New Goblin) fights Peter in the very beginning of the movie,just like the original movie,the only difference is that Harry would be in a Hobgoblin costume,not in a New Goblin one.

    -Then make Harry get paralyzed from the neck down after he gets clotheslined.This way Harry still has his hatred for Peter,and finds another way to seek his revenge.

    -Show Harry going to a prison to visit someone.Harry is in his wheel chair moving it with the device that his mouth controls.

    -Show Harry visiting an old guy who can barley move,Adrian Toomes(The Vulture).As Harry and Adrian talk,show flashbacks and give the audience details on how this old guy Adrian Toomes was a villain that spidey has fought between SM2 & SM3.

    -Then show Harry making a deal with Adrian Toomes that if he breaks Toomes out of jail,then Toomes has to go and kill Spider-Man.Toomes agrees with excitement.

    -So how does a quadriplegic and an old guy who can barley move be a threat to spidey?

    -Harry does some research and finds out that Oscorp was working on a project for soldiers to adapt to the harsh sand climate.But the project was abandoned for obvious reasons.

    -Harry then sees that spidey has just captured a thug(Flint Marko) on the news,and that this thug is gonna face 20 years in prison if he is convicted.

    -Show a stunned Flint Marko as a cop tells him that someone has posted his bail.As Flint Marko leaves the police station,a black limosine pulls up to him and the tinted black window rolls down.

    -Flint Marko looks inside and sees Harry.Harry tells Flint Marko that he is the one who posted his bail,and that he has a way to help Flint Marko to not end up in jail,to be rich,and to have power.

    -Harry makes a deal with Flint Marko,the deal is that Flint Marko is gonna go under an experiment,then goes to the prison to break Adrian Toomes out,then the two of them are suppose to go and find Spider-Man and kill him.
     
  22. Juggernaut33 Registered

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    I don't think so. The movie didn't do that well in the US. Actually it did less than Spider-Man 2.

    Spider-Man ($336,530,303), Spider-Man 2 ($373,585,825), Spider-Man 3 ($336,530,303). The film did much better outside US because it opened simultanously around the wolrd (May 1st). The perfect date. It wasn't a question of quality really, it was just a question of right timing.
     
  23. Juggernaut33 Registered

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    No, most of the things that ended up in the film were wanted by Sam Raimi. I liked the New Goblin thing. I likes his new outfit. He just wanted to kill Spider-Man. No need for a garish costume to do that. You just need a light and elaborate outfit to get the job done.
     
  24. lordofthenerds Not a Goddamn Side-Kick

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    Actually the first one made 403,706,375 domestically.

    In response to the thread title, the movie would have been undeniably better with Vulture in there instead of Venom, yet the movie's hype would have suffered.
     
  25. Blader5489 CASUAL SEX!

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    Most casual moviegoers don't dissect summer blockbusters like a film critic, they go to be entertained (see: Transformers). While Vulture might have made for a better script and better overall movie, he lacks the mass market appeal and entertainment factor that Venom brings to the table. So, no, the domestic draw for Spider-Man wouldn't have been "massive," at least not any more so than it really was.
     

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