Why Did Sam Raimi Go Along w/ the Venom Plan?

[VenomVsSpidey]

You guys do realize SM3 had the best scene in all of the Spidey movies don't ya?

Mr Ditkovich: You tell her; You are good woman, I am good man

Pete:...?

Mr Ditkovich: Hmm?

Pete: I'm sorry about the door..it was nothing to-

Mr Ditkovich: If you want to make it up to me...you can buy pizza?

Pete: ok.

Mr Ditkovich: Now's good time..

 

[Spider-Kid]

Pete: I'm sorry about the door..it was nothing to-

Mr Ditkovich: If you want to make it up to me...you can buy pizza?

Pete: ok.

Mr Ditkovich: Now's good time..

I lol'd t:

 

[LightningFlash]

obvious troll is obvious

and wait for it...wait for it...

You know, you call me a troll because I say that I hate Spider-Man 3 all day long, but you say you love Spider-Man 3 all day long, so, aren't you a troll as well? That, and a kisser of Raimi's ass?

 

[Dragon]

You know, you call me a troll because I say that I hate Spider-Man 3 all day long, but you say you love Spider-Man 3 all day long, so, aren't you a troll as well? That, and a kisser of Raimi's ass?

It doesn't make him either. Just because you appreciate someone's work doesn't mean you're kissing their ass. And trolling is where you offer nothing other than negativity. Not even constructive criticism. To simply say a movie sucks isn't offering anything to the discussion. There certainly were parts of SM3 that sucked. But there were good parts also. And those parts were also directed by Sam Raimi.

And while I don't recall the names, I do recall you holding up some films as being great that weren't exactly shining examples of cinema either, and could be said to "suck". It's all about opinion. So if you want to discuss or debate, cool. If you only want people to agree with you, then you have a problem.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

You know, you call me a troll because I say that I hate Spider-Man 3 all day long, but you say you love Spider-Man 3 all day long, so, aren't you a troll as well? That, and a kisser of Raimi's ass?

no, I'm not troll, ya see, everytime YOU visit the thread, I can summarize exactly what you'll say : so...we can agree on how much SM3 sucked right? I defend this film with logical points, and all you say is "no...that part was stupid, and this movie SUCKED! ya need to get your facts straight buddy

It doesn't make him either. Just because you appreciate someone's work doesn't mean you're kissing their ass. And trolling is where you offer nothing other than negativity. Not even constructive criticism. To simply say a movie sucks isn't offering anything to the discussion. There certainly were parts of SM3 that sucked. But there were good parts also. And those parts were also directed by Sam Raimi.

And while I don't recall the names, I do recall you holding up some films as being great that weren't exactly shining examples of cinema either, and could be said to "suck". It's all about opinion. So if you want to discuss or debate, cool. If you only want people to agree with you, then you have a problem.

^^

what you said. t:

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

I lol'd t:

I did too. IMO, this had the best comedy of the series : the dancing thrusts + WTF? looks on women's face =


classic.

 

[drmick]

The Jameson pill and the french waiter scenes are easily some of the funniest scenes in the trilogy.

Except that is a criticism of the film, since Simmons and Campbell make a far greater impact with their tiny roles than any of the 'stars'.

We've went way off topic on this one. If anybody is wanting to know, the best discussion relevant to the thread title is on pg 2!

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

we're done here?

 

[GoldGoblin]

Do you think Raimi made some decisions to screw up the movie after Venom was forced down his throat?

 

[spida-man]

I did too. IMO, this had the best comedy of the series : the dancing thrusts + WTF? looks on women's face =


classic.

what u justsaid is the exact reason why I don't understand why ppl hating the dancing scenes...especially when he was out on the street and all the girls were giving him funny looks..that scene was hilarious.. i lol'd at that more than i did during SM2's "Rain drops keep falling on my head" scene

 

[spida-man]

First of all,i watched Spider-Man 3 5 times in the cinema...went to another country to watch it on May the 4-th because the movie wasn't released yet in my country.

Do you think i would have watched it 5 times in the cinema if i hated it,or undervalue the people who like/love it making me look like a huge hypocrite in the process?

Unfortunately the movie was received badly partly due to the humongous expectations partly because it ended being a self-parody for the second half of it(which like you've said was kinda like the comics and i didn't mind it too much).

Every time whether on other forums which have nothing to do with superheroes,or in real life i have been involved in a conversation about the Spider-Man movies it went along the lines ''The first two were great,the third one sucked'' hence the 95% i wrote earlier.

It wasn't meant to express statistics but every fact you can take implies that the third movie wasn't well received.

Bad legs,bad dvd sales,bad grades on polls like imdb which are pretty good for comparing actual word of mouth,etc,etc...do you think Raimi would publicly apologize for the movie if it was well received?

I have nothing against people who enjoy SP3 but it's simply untrue that there is no backlash.

u saw it 5 times in the theater?! i' am now jealous of you..see I was trying to keepa tradition of seeing each spidey film a certain nuber of times..i saw the first movie once in theaters( i wanted to see it again but was unable too) saw SM2 twice, and i wanted to see SM3 3 times but a death in the family stopped me from seeing it a third time..

 

[givebackmyhand]

He went along with it for one reason only, he was forced to.
Has your boss never told you to do something that you just don't agree with?
First off they wanted the black suit because they knew parents wouldn't buy another action figure that looked the same as the last 2 movies, it was all about money with the studio.
Raimi had no interest in the venom storyline and it shows.
He really cared about the story he was telling and it really showed in the first 2.
If they wanted venom they should have dropped sandman, but they had already spent a fortune in post production on him that they werent going to drop him.
Greed ruined Spider-Man 3. Lets hope the producers have learned their lesson.
I think they must have agreed to back off or Raimi and Maguire wouldn't have come back. It's not like they are stuck for work.

 

[GoldGoblin]

How come he had the crane scene,seems like a waste of money and a waste of time.They could of used the money and spent the time to make the symbiote story better.

Like instead of a meteor crashing right by Peter and MJ on their date which was lame,they could of shown John Jameson again as a astronaut collecting a rock from the moon.

Then as he is about to pilot the shuttle back to earth the symbiote comes oozing out of the rock attacking the astronauts causing the shuttle to crash somewhere in the city of New York.

And the symbiote would attach to spidey as spidey shows up to save the astronauts...

 

[[A]]

Do you think Raimi made some decisions to screw up the movie after Venom was forced down his throat?

You don't need to make some decisions to screw up something if you got Venom in there

 

[Chris Wallace]

I have argued this for 2 years; while I enjoyed the third film immensely I feel we would have gotten a MUCH better movie had Venom not been forced down Raimi's throat.

 

[itsleroy]

Wow, I just read all seven pages of this entire thread, and this is all really really depressing. Seriously, I love these films and it's really sad to see the franchise evolve into something for the sole use of cashing in on. Shame.

Spider-Man 3 stands as the worst film of the trilogy, however it is still my favorite. I never get tired of watching these films (for reasons I will post later). I am disappointed that Raimi has let the franchise fall to such low standards, but I would be more disappointed if he wasn't directing it. I trust him, he knows what he's doing.

(However, this whole "Vulturess" thing is a tad stupid.)

I think everybody learned their lesson not to mess with decisions. Instead of bashing Raimi we really should be thanking him for bringing us some of the best comic book films of the decade. Ziskin and Arad just need to back the f*** off.

As far it stands, everything we're saying is just speculation. I don't think we'll ever know the truth behind the decisions of Spider-Man 3. Raimi would probably get reamed for talking about it, so..

 

[drmick]

How come he had the crane scene,seems like a waste of money and a waste of time.They could of used the money and spent the time to make the symbiote story better.

Like instead of a meteor crashing right by Peter and MJ on their date which was lame,they could of shown John Jameson again as a astronaut collecting a rock from the moon.

Then as he is about to pilot the shuttle back to earth the symbiote comes oozing out of the rock attacking the astronauts causing the shuttle to crash somewhere in the city of New York.

And the symbiote would attach to spidey as spidey shows up to save the astronauts...

THIS^^^^^^

But I'm wondering if the topic was too sensitive because of the Shuttle disasters? Let's face it, if something even slightly goes wrong on re-entry, then instant incineration. The only thing that would get to New York would be tiny bits of ash.

Also, Superman Returns (which oddly also has delusional idiots supporting it) did that already with the only good scene from that film.

 

[SKSpawn]

While I'm no big fan of the Vulture, and believe him and Sandman would have felt a bit of a limp progression as villains (the obvious choice was Lizard and HarryGoblin), I think the biggest issue Raimi faced was that, in being forced to include Venom, he basically shoehorned him into the film.

Raimi reckons he had "a plan" for Vulture? Well, once his plan got changed and Venom was included he should have reworked and rewritten the enitre film/scirpt to include the new character. It seems he got someone in who knew Venom and got them to lazy up the concepts. The idea that Venom can't handle their own film is complete crap, to be honest, but in a film with two other villains there's not enough time for Venom.

The way I see it, they should have sat down and tried renegotiating it into two films, like a lot of people believed it would be from the start (and probably should have been): Spidey and Harry have issues, Spidey acquires the black suit and begins changing, Sandman is born (DOESN'T KILL UNCLE BEEN THIS ISN'T 1989 ANYMORE!!) and commits crimes, and Eddie tries to steal Peter's job by being an absolute prick-monger. Sandman is your physical villain for the first film, with Harry pulling strings and pushing the symbiote's influence over Peter. The film concludes with Peter turning Heel, washing Sandman away/killing him, and leaving Harry scarred and in a coma, with Mary-Jane leaving town. Suddenly distraught, Peter rids himself of the suit, which finds its way to Eddie, ending with his transformation.

The next film picks up with Peter trying to make amends for his actions and visiting Harry, only to find him gone. In attempting to track him down as Spider-Man, he is attacked by Venom in a fashion/fight similar to Peter/New Goblin, ending with Venom disappearing after one-upping Spidey due to him not setting off his sense. Peter struggles throughout the film to reconcile with Mary-Jane, as Eddie/Venom stalk, taunt, and attack him throughout, only to then have to face Harry, who goes all Goblined up in this film and attacks Peter directly at his apartment (Harry being more of a Hobgoblin than a Sky Surfer) and they have an epic mid-air, cross town sky battle. (Hopefully during this Rami would include some indication as to why Harry had visions of his father before taking the serum, but whatever) The fight is interrupted by Venom, who attacks Harry and mauls him, damaging his glider and causing him to flee. With this distraction, Spidey escapes. Mary-Jane comes to town to give Peter his ring back and talk, only to find his apartment wrecked. She then goes to see Harry and give that speech that was in the trailers and to help him, and her by extension, begin to sort their heads and hearts out. Leaving, she is attacked by Eddie (not Venom) and forced to draw Peter out in the open (similar to Harry's asanine plot) Like a fool, Peter complies and attempts to talk Eddie down, but instead has to fight Venom one more time. Though Venom overcomes him, Peter is saved by Harry, who ultimately sacrifices himself as in the film, in a way that reminds Peter of the symbiote's weakness and ends in a fashion seen in the film proper, only with less ambiguity over Peter and Mary-Jane's successful reconciliation.

It would have been 50/50 whether to bring Sandman back into the plot, but I think having him physically and special-effects-wise dominate the first film as the muscle and the misguided criminal would have been (a) truer to his comics roots (b) forgone the need to link him to Peter personally, instead having him become a superpowered punching bag for Peter's issues caused by Harry/Brock/the suit and (c) still been very impressive to see, and could have still included his issues with his daughter. I think ending the first film with Sandman's demise/Harry's scarring/coma says more about Peter's actions than Sandman coming back to life, but obviously there would be enough leeway and ambiguity to include him again. The death of Venom probably would/could/should have transitioned as well, but if they wanted a spin off then I suppose an ending similar to Venom's first comic defeat would have worked just as well, and re-enforced how Peter is now in control enough to not cross that line (as he would have with Sandman).

But that's hindsight for you.

 

[Dragon]

THIS^^^^^^

But I'm wondering if the topic was too sensitive because of the Shuttle disasters? Let's face it, if something even slightly goes wrong on re-entry, then instant incineration. The only thing that would get to New York would be tiny bits of ash.

Also, Superman Returns (which oddly also has delusional idiots supporting it) did that already with the only good scene from that film.

They didn't need the shuttle thing. It would've added a good 20 minutes not to mention tons of additional cost to pull such a sequence off, with the only pay-off being the symbiote's arrival. The meteor shower was a simple and direct way of bringing it to Earth. And the Crane scene was cool.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

They didn't need the shuttle thing. It would've added a good 20 minutes not to mention tons of additional cost to pull such a sequence off, with the only pay-off being the symbiote's arrival. The meteor shower was a simple and direct way of bringing it to Earth. And the Crane scene was cool.

agreed.

 

[david icke]

Lose the crane scene? This Spider-man3 bashing is getting outta hand now, there are some gripes I can agree with, but this? It was one of the best Spidey shots in the trilogy, I'll never forget the first time I saw that on the big screen, I felt like I was right up there with him doing that s***, it was fantastic, perfectly timed physics and with some nice little sound effects to boot.

 

[drmick]

Unfortunately the crane scene was added in after production had started as an emergency plot addition (due to the whole MJ/Gwen Venom kidnap switcheroo). They even had to dig down the back of the couch to get extra money to fund that scene (it's all in the Making of book).

I personally believe that the addition of the crane scene was also the reason we never got to see any Black Spidey action sequences that were hinted at in both the trailers and the photos in the movie. They had no money and no time to include them.

Sure the crane scene was cool, but it was ridiculously brief, was pure Deus Ex machina, and only served to introduce Brock, Captain Stacy and to a certain extent Gwen.

Man this film was a disaster. I'll admit that every scene (with the exception Raimi's kids and Jennifer Dugan) was extremely well shot, and individually are of high quality. It's just that they are all just a big mishmash of scenes with no decent coherent theme or narrative.

This film was rushed in terms of plot, and I believe the final edit was probably only done days before the premiere in Japan.

 

[GoldGoblin]

Lose the crane scene? This Spider-man3 bashing is getting outta hand now, there are some gripes I can agree with, but this? It was one of the best Spidey shots in the trilogy, I'll never forget the first time I saw that on the big screen, I felt like I was right up there with him doing that s***, it was fantastic, perfectly timed physics and with some nice little sound effects to boot.

^
It was a waste,it probably was gonna be where spidey and vulture fought each other and vulture caused the crane scene to make his escape.But without vulture,the crane scene is lame.

 

[drmick]

I'm curious to know how the sm3 fans feel now that both Raimi and Feige have both admitted that the third film was.... not up to par.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

I disagree. that's how I feel.