How Would You Change Solid Snake (For MGS4)?

[Zenien]

It was mentioned in the Game Informer article a few months ago.

What was mentioned? Quote? (no paraphrasing!)

 

[villejo]

It just said that he started recieving death threats, so he was begged to work on it, because the developers of MGS4 were scared for his life.

 

[XwolverineX]

Good.

 

[Mr. Credible]

while i do like the look of the 'old snake' i think either of those 2 manips posted above look like, 10x better.

 

[kainedamo]

since when was it wrong for the fans to get what they want?

Sometimes creators know what fans want better than the fans themselves. Sometimes fans are wrong when they demand things. We should remember... Kojima doesn't owe us anything. The fans don't own the character, Kojima does. It's HIS vision.

I don't like whiney fans. Like xWolverinex. Boo hoo, they made Snake old!

Snake is a badass no matter what. The age thing will play very well into his character. The 'tash is cool.

I'm surprised by the shortsightedness of people. Can't you picture the jokes and jibes characters will make to Snake about his 'tash? It will be great!

 

[Phaser]

Sometimes creators know what fans want better than the fans themselves.

Yeah, like...Raiden.

Sometimes fans are wrong when they demand things.

Demand things like what? That MGS4 let us play as the series' hallmark character - Solid Snake instead of whiny bleach-blonde prick, Raiden? That we get a story that actually makes sense instead of veering off yet again into Matrix sequel-wannabe psychobabble territory? That Snake actually look like the Solid Snake as we have come to know him over the years than some 80's male pornstar reject?

The fans are really being like...totally unreasonable now, aren't they?

We should remember... Kojima doesn't owe us anything. The fans don't own the character, Kojima does. It's HIS vision.

His vision won't be worth jack **** without the fans, who elevated the series to the prestigious level where it is today.

There are many, many great games that have fallen into the pits of obscurity, some even better than the Metal Gear Solids and Resident Evils - games that have never gained mainstream popularity, that will never be appreciated the way they were supposed to be and will never get the sequel they deserved. Without the fans, that's exactly what MGS would have become - some cult classic the existence of which known only to the geek elite.

I don't like whiney fans.

And I don't like conformist sheep.

I'm surprised by the shortsightedness of people. Can't you picture the jokes and jibes characters will make to Snake about his 'tash? It will be great!

Which really contributes to Snake's "badass" factor, doesn't it?

Besides, I didn't see anyone cracking jokes or making fun of Snake's 80'ish mullet or his scruffy beard in previous MGS games, so in all likelihood we could end up being stuck with having to take "pornstar Snake" very much seriously.

 

[블라스]

Hahaha Snake Norris.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

I liked the full-bearded snake manip... Looks a lot like Big Boss... And it's kind of Ironic, that Snake doesn't want to be like Big Boss, when he's the one that's more like Big Boss... (Physically and in mindset... Solid Snake is a lot like Naked Snake.)

 

[kainedamo]

Originally Posted by kainedamo
Sometimes creators know what fans want better than the fans themselves.

Yeah, like...Raiden.

Raiden, like him or not, allowed fans to see the badass-ness of Snake through the eyes of a different character.

Demand things like what? That MGS4 let us play as the series' hallmark character - Solid Snake instead of whiny bleach-blonde prick, Raiden? That we get a story that actually makes sense instead of veering off yet again into Matrix sequel-wannabe psychobabble territory? That Snake actually look like the Solid Snake as we have come to know him over the years than some 80's male pornstar reject?

The fans are really being like...totally unreasonable now, aren't they?

Yes. Yes you are being unreasonable. That rant makes you look like as if you aren't even a MGS fan. "Matrix sequel-wannabe psychobabble territory". If you hate the games that much, why are you still buying them?

I'm right and you are wrong. Do you know how I know that I am right? Because of your rant. It really, really deeply upsets you that they've made Snake an old man and done away with his beard. Get over it. Snake isn't Bart Simpson. His look is going to change now and then. Stop being a whiney fanboy, or stop buying the games. Why does change scare you so much?

You're the type of fan that whines when the X-Men change costumes.
You're the type of fan that can have hours of discussion about the length of Superman's cape.
You're the type of fan that cannot stand change.

Grow up. That's all I have to say to you. I mean really. What a cry baby. Boooooo hoooooooooo, Mommy, Daddy!! They made Snake look old! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! Wow, what a travesty. They gave him a mustache. So ****ing what?!? Real people don't live their entire lives with ****ing beards.

Story progression and character growth. That is why Snake is an old man, and that is why Snake decided he wasn't going to live his whole life with a beard.

 

[Boom]

I've got a couple of MGS news for you guys:

-Mei Ling will be in MGS4.
-There will be TWO new trailers at E3 (But it remains to be seen if both are for MGS4), as well as a new MGS4 Passport.
-Kojima confirmed in his latest Japanese blog that a Metal Gear movie IS moving forward.

 

[kainedamo]

MGS4 passport??

 

[Boom]

MGS4 passport??

They were videos that Ryan and Ken filmed while they were doing research in a foreign country for MGS4. They can be found on the HideoBlog website if you want to take a look.

 

[Boom]

http://www.blog.konami.jp/gs/img/the_report/the_report_014.mp3

"He's back!"

Who's back I wonder??

 

[Phaser]

Raiden, like him or not, allowed fans to see the badass-ness of Snake through the eyes of a different character.

I thought I made it EXPLICITLY clear that I was talking about the character of Raiden himself and all that was wrong with him (such as making him a whiny, gutless prick with lanky and feminine features). It's always advisable to brush up on your reading skills before jumping head-straight into arguments, sonny.

Yes. Yes you are being unreasonable. That rant makes you look like as if you aren't even a MGS fan. "Matrix sequel-wannabe psychobabble territory".

Please. The whole final act of MGS2 (despite the fact that it is my favorite one in the series) is simply dripping of the "Matrix sequel syndrome" - psychobabble that made no sense whatsoever. If you can't even muster up the intelligence to constructively criticize your favorite game, then you've got your tongue so far up Kojima's anal rectum that it's very much meaningless trying to reason with you.

If you hate the games that much, why are you still buying them?

Stuff those assumptions back where you pulled them from, sonny. I'm one of the biggest MGS junkies on this board. But, if by your definition a fan is someone who's ready to ****ishly suck up each and everything that Kojima throws his way, then by all means count me out.

I'm right and you are wrong. Do you know how I know that I am right? Because of your rant. It really, really deeply upsets you that they've made Snake an old man and done away with his beard. Get over it. Snake isn't Bart Simpson. His look is going to change now and then. Stop being a whiney fanboy, or stop buying the games.

Making Snake old was a sufficiently appropriate move and I don't believe I've complained about that in this thread. What I did complain, however, was making him look like a pornstar reject with that moustache. One of the most defining attributes of Snake's appearance over the course of the entire MG saga was that he's either with or without a beard.

Why does change scare you so much?

Change is good when it is within the realm of reason. I'm happy they changed Snake's sneaking suit. That Solid-eye? Looks great. Snake an old man? Fits within the context of the plot. But change simply for the sake of change? Like that stupid 'stache? What purpose does it serve really other Kojima needlessly trying too hard to make Snake look different? We've seen from the manips that Snake looks infinitely better without it and is a lot more recognizable as the "Solid Snake" we've all come to know and love.

You're the type of fan that whines when the X-Men change costumes.
You're the type of fan that can have hours of discussion about the length of Superman's cape.
You're the type of fan that cannot stand change.

I'm the type of fan who does not feel insecure and is perfectly comfortable in pointing out the flaws of one his favorite franchises. Not some conformist sheep like you ready to give Kojima a ******* at a moment's notice.

Grow up. That's all I have to say to you. I mean really. What a cry baby. Boooooo hoooooooooo, Mommy, Daddy!! They made Snake look old! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! Wow, what a travesty. They gave him a mustache. So ****ing what?!? Real people don't live their entire lives with ****ing beards.

I'm not the one loser making weepy threads about killing himself because of some girl telling him about having 3 hour long sex sessions with another guy. Whining "the girl of my dreams is dating a guy who doesn't wash his hands" on a comicbook superhero forum amongst geeks who couldn't be any less serious? Who's the crybaby that needs to grow up now, eh?

Story progression and character growth. That is why Snake is an old man, and that is why Snake decided he wasn't going to live his whole life with a beard.

How the **** does "story progression" and "character growth" have to do with Snake shaving his beard and growing a stupid moustache?

Oh, is that your asinine logic working wonders yet again?

 

[Benstamania]

I'd just make him look like he did in MGS2 but with no mullet.

This is a mistake by the majority of MGS Fans, Snake, in no way has a mullet. He never....ever has. His hair is long, he tucks it behind his ears and then slaps on a bandana. This will give it a "mullet" look but it's not.

When your married to a cosmotologist you learn some things.

THIS is a true blue, trim around the sides but let the back grow mullet.

 

[Capt Throbberson]

How about at the beginning of the game, in addition to difficulty, you get to choose if Snake has a beard, mustache, or clean shaven.

It's a stupid idea but would be curb alot of *****ing and show how insignificant a detail it is.

 

[Demon Within]

IM so sad with the direction MGS has taken since the playstation 1 MGS. No matter how great the gameplay, graphics or replayability are in MGS4 it will never better then MGS because snake looks like a shell of his former self. IMO Kojima is trying to be too creative with his character designs and its backfiring.

 

[kainedamo]

Way to make it personal, Phaser. The fact that you did that sorta makes me look MORE right than I already was! Only a ranting fanboy would resort to bringing the argument down to that level. Well done.

I'm the type of fan who does not feel insecure and is perfectly comfortable in pointing out the flaws of one his favorite franchises. Not some conformist sheep like you ready to give Kojima a ******* at a moment's notice.

Pointing out flaws, that's fine. Critisizing is fine. Being a big baby is when you have gone too far. I wouldn't describe myself as a conformist sheep at all as you so frequently like to call me. But I'd rather point out the flaws of getting so upset over a mustache than throw Kojima to the wolves over something so trivial.

The argument that you make is so completely trivial and wacky. Do you know what it comes down to?? Personal taste!! You either don't like mustaches at all or you just don't think Snake suits a mustache. I think, as an old man, he looks like a damn badass! So do other people. It's personal taste! How the heck can you argue that your personal taste is correct, therefore Kojima should bend to the whims of whiney fanboys everywhere, and change such a trivial thing? The fact that we're even arguing about this gives the mustache validity. We're looking at Snake in a new way. He's not a cardboard character, he's not real life either, but the fact that he will change his facial hair stylings OVER THE YEARS makes him less cardboard. Old men look cool with mustaches!! Besides the french, they're the only ones that can pull it off!!

Personal taste. That's what we're arguing here. You don't have a leg to stand on, really. You're opinion "Snake shouldn't have a mustache because it's my personal preference" is so insignificant it's not worthy of discussion. You say that a beard or the lack of makes Snake recognisable. There is a point in that, but then I could say that the red shirt and blue pants makes Bart Simpson recognisable. Solid Snake is not Bart Simpson, so his outfit changes from game to game, aswell as his hair. In the first game Snake's hair was fairly short and it stuck up. In MGS2 it was much longer, looking like a mullet with the bandana on, and he had a beard. This look stayed for MGS3. I actually think it's a rediculous concept to keep the same look, especially if Snake is an old man. Two games he's had the mullet and beard look. Get over it. Accept that it's your personal preference that Snake should have a beard or no facial hair at all. I win. You lose.

As for your personal remarks. I've never said I would kill myself. I've always whined with a hint of irony, a sense of humour that goes over the heads of alot of people. I'm not sure many people have spotted it. But it doesn't matter anyway, discussing that has no place in THIS thread, and I'll thankyou to not bring it up again.

 

[Phaser]

Way to make it personal, Phaser. The fact that you did that sorta makes me look MORE right than I already was!

How so? You called me a whiny crybaby and I plainly retorted by presenting instances where you acted like one yourself (more than sufficiently, if I might add). It was a practical exercise in the saying about the consequences of people living in glass houses throwing stones at others. You must be inherently stupid if you hadn't figured that out by now already.

Only a ranting fanboy would resort to bringing the argument down to that level. Well done.

No, just someone who deems to give you a taste of your own medicine.

Pointing out flaws, that's fine. Critisizing is fine. Being a big baby is when you have gone too far.

Then you'd do best to take your own advice here, "baby" (if you get the inference, that is).

I wouldn't describe myself as a conformist sheep at all as you so frequently like to call me.

Oh?

Sometimes creators know what fans want better than the fans themselves. Sometimes fans are wrong when they demand things. We should remember... Kojima doesn't owe us anything. The fans don't own the character, Kojima does. It's HIS vision.

So what you're basically saying here is that we should silently lick whatever bones Kojima throws our way without remark or question. If that whole paragraph doesn't just reek of your blatanly conformist sheep-ish ways, then I don't know what does.

But I'd rather point out the flaws of getting so upset over a mustache than throw Kojima to the wolves over something so trivial.

If it's something so trivial, then surely it wouldn't take a lot for Kojima to change it to something more appropriate that will be met with a much more positive response. Besides, I don't recall saying MGS4 will suck and I won't be buying it because of pornstar Snake, or that the franchise should be grounded and Kojima be forced to clean the latrines at Konami. The 'stache sticks out like a sore thumb in what would be an otherwise perfect direction for what we've seen of MGS4 in terms of characters, plot and setting both aesthetically and thematically.

When looking at something so good, so promising, it's always the smallest flaws that tend to be noticeable than most. Which is why that 'stache is so annoying.

The argument that you make is so completely trivial and wacky. Do you know what it comes down to?? Personal taste!! You either don't like mustaches at all or you just don't think Snake suits a mustache. I think, as an old man, he looks like a damn badass! So do other people. It's personal taste! How the heck can you argue that your personal taste is correct, therefore Kojima should bend to the whims of whiney fanboys everywhere, and change such a trivial thing?

Opinions only have as much weight as the justifications behind them. I didn't see any valid reason from the 'stache camp other than they like Snake's new look. Those of us who're not too enthusiastic about it argue that it goes against the established appearance of Solid Snake over the course of the MG saga and hence, would like something a bit more familiar. Considering that this will very well be Snake's final outing in the series, asking for him to look like the way we've come to know and love him over the years is most definitely a valid demand.

The fact that we're even arguing about this gives the mustache validity. We're looking at Snake in a new way. He's not a cardboard character, he's not real life either, but the fact that he will change his facial hair stylings OVER THE YEARS makes him less cardboard. Old men look cool with mustaches!! Besides the french, they're the only ones that can pull it off!!

Most. Asinine. Argument. Ever.

Whether or not Snake is a cardboard character has nothing to do with his appearance. That is determined by how the character is written and played, and not by some pieces of facial hair. That's like saying Peter Parker and Bruce Wayne are one of the most one-dimensional characters ever written, only because they're always clean shaven.

Besides, there are plenty of characters without clean moustaches that look more badass than pornstar Snake.

Personal taste. That's what we're arguing here. You don't have a leg to stand on, really. You're opinion "Snake shouldn't have a mustache because it's my personal preference" is so insignificant it's not worthy of discussion. You say that a beard or the lack of makes Snake recognisable. There is a point in that, but then I could say that the red shirt and blue pants makes Bart Simpson recognisable. Solid Snake is not Bart Simpson, so his outfit changes from game to game, aswell as his hair.

No, the more appropriate argument would be about the creators giving Bart Simpson stupid facial hair instead of changing his clothes. If you're going to throw examples, at least muster up the basic intelligence to give ones that actually have some relevance to the argument.

In the first game Snake's hair was fairly short and it stuck up. In MGS2 it was much longer, looking like a mullet with the bandana on, and he had a beard. This look stayed for MGS3. I actually think it's a rediculous concept to keep the same look, especially if Snake is an old man. Two games he's had the mullet and beard look. Get over it. Accept that it's your personal preference that Snake should have a beard or no facial hair at all.

Then going by your own jackass logic, Kojima should nix Snake's bandanna and the sneaking suit as well, since, you know, he's been wearing them since as long as anyone can remember, and is still sporting them in MGS4. And in case you don't get my point (since you're so dense that way), Kojima is basically keeping Snake's "same old look" intact, with a few modifications here and that are more fitting for a man his age. Which is why a beard is a much more practical choice than the pornstar moustache, while the stubble is good for both practical and nostalgic reasons.

I win. You lose.

Patting yourself on the back like that and shouting slogans of some fake self-victory when you didn't even have the spine to address my entire post is truly a sight to behold, and a damn amusing one at that.

As for your personal remarks. I've never said I would kill myself. I've always whined with a hint of irony, a sense of humour that goes over the heads of alot of people. I'm not sure many people have spotted it.

Then you're either too dimwitted to have a freakin' idea about realising when a joke gets too old (well, since you did make three whole threads on the subject) or you're so pathetic as to think I was actually going to fall for the whole "I was just kidding" excuse you're now bringing up to save face here.

Take your pick.

But it doesn't matter anyway, discussing that has no place in THIS thread, and I'll thankyou to not bring it up again.

Ah, so after playing smug with me over the course of two posts and more than a 1000 words (more than 98% of this very post), little ol' chimpy here now wants me to play it civil with him in this regard? Ooh, I must've hit an aching nerve or something there.

How about this, skippy? I'll bring it up wherever I think it is appropriate, so you'd best think twice about what you're going to post next if you don't want your easily shaken sensitivities stomped over like sewer cockroaches.

 

[Zenien]

I've got a couple of MGS news for you guys:

-Mei Ling will be in MGS4.
-There will be TWO new trailers at E3 (But it remains to be seen if both are for MGS4), as well as a new MGS4 Passport.
-Kojima confirmed in his latest Japanese blog that a Metal Gear movie IS moving forward.

One trailer that's omg cinematic and one that's focused more around gameplay, would be my guess.

 

[kainedamo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kainedamo
Sometimes creators know what fans want better than the fans themselves. Sometimes fans are wrong when they demand things. We should remember... Kojima doesn't owe us anything. The fans don't own the character, Kojima does. It's HIS vision.

So what you're basically saying here is that we should silently lick whatever bones Kojima throws our way without remark or question. If that whole paragraph doesn't just reek of your blatanly conformist sheep-ish ways, then I don't know what does.

Blatent conformost sheep-ish ways?? If you can't even afford to give the most basic respect to the creator that it is HIS character, HIS vision, HIS story, then YOU have a big problem. Imagine what films, comic books, and everything else would be like if writers and artists just bent over everytime a group of fans whined. Fans like you ALYWAS think you know better than the people that have been in the business for years, but you don't.

What should come first to a writer, or an artist, a director, a video game designer? What he wants or what a group of fans want?

Do you know why movies have become increasingly stale over the years? Studios try to please everybody. Instead of honouring an artistic vision, they step in and say "Hmm, actually, this character should talk like this, such and such should wear this, tone down the swearing" etc etc etc.

If it's something so trivial, then surely it wouldn't take a lot for Kojima to change it to something more appropriate that will be met with a much more positive response.

As far as I've seen, there hasn't been a big uproar about the 'tash. And if it is a trivial matter (which it is), then I can certainly picture someone saying to Kojima "Hey Hideo, a bunch of fans, maybe a few thousand at the very most, don't like the 'tash. Wanna give him a beard instead?", and then Hideo would say ".... Nah!".

You post an awfully long post, but you say very little. Your argument boils down to this - Solid Snake should lose the 'tash for the sake of nostalgia and recognition. But, just making Snake old already makes him look very different. Fans still recognise the guy. It's like you said, he's still got the sneak suit and bandana. I wouldn't say he even needs the sneak suit to be recognised. Minor changes to his look have been made to mirror the fact that it's a few years down the line and Snake is getting on a bit. That includes the 'tash!!

Your argument about Batman and Peter Parker. Ever read Dark Knight Returns?? Bruce Wayne was old... and he had a mustache. He shaved it off when he decided to be Batman again, simply because the mustache isn't practical or good looking with his mask. Peter Parker is ALWAYS growing heavy stubble then shaving it off. In Spider-Girl, he has a ****ing GOATEE!!

There you go. That's TWO characters, both of them over 40 years old, neither of them ever had beards or mustaches before the stories I mentioned, and yet...

You complaining about this is like an artist thinking that, just for a few months maybe, Peter Parker could have a beard, and then fans complaining about it. It's so insignificant.

I don't think fans should lick the ass of creators. But I do think a creator's vision should be honoured. There is a balance between the two of those. I'm trying to think of a good example. Punisher. The Punisher movie. I listened to the dvd commentary on that, and the director was saying how alot of reviewers were saying it was too brutal and too dark. But the thing that got me, was that the director actually couldn't really argue against that. But Thomas Jane, in an interview he made a great point. The Punisher movie was made for a certain group of people, and that group of people like the movie because it's brutal and dark! If anything, it wasn't brutal enough!! Studios, man! They get involved in the creative process, trying to give movies more mass appeal, when they should just get out of the damn way. Reviewers can also sometimes be overly PC.

It's the same for fans. Sometimes, fans need to step aside and just let creators do their work. Snake is supposed to be old! The 'tash reflects his oldness!

My Bart Simpson argument is still valid. Is Snake a Bart Simpson, or does he evolve and change? He evolves and he changes. He decided to get a 'tash. Deal with it.

You can't change it. It's nothing to get upset about. The only thing you can do is deal with it. You'll know that we'll all love the game when it comes out. Maybe the 'tash will grow on you.

Whether or not Snake is a cardboard character has everything to do with his physical appearance. Snake, much like a real person, goes from having no facial hair, to having a beard, to having a 'tash. His sneak suit changes. In MGS3, he didn't have a sneak suit at all. Hell, it wasn't even Solid Snake in part 3. MGS is a series that changes very dramatically from one game to the next.

We're going to start going around in circles. The argument for the mustache is that Snake has aged, the eye gadget mirrors that, the 'tash mirrors it. Minor changes to his look. And he looks like a badass (in my, and others opinions). The argument against, Snake should stay with the same look from other games for the sake of nostalgia, recognition, and because it might be his last outing.

I still say a big factor is personal taste. If you thought mustache looked good, you wouldn't be making these arguments.

 

[Phaser]

Blatent conformost sheep-ish ways?? If you can't even afford to give the most basic respect to the creator that it is HIS character, HIS vision, HIS story, then YOU have a big problem.

Whatever gave you that idea? Doesn't the fact that we are all fans of his work speak enough for our "basic respect" for the guy and his creation?

What you are asking for here is for us to fall in prostration towards Kojima, affirming his right to do whatever he wants to do and consequently denying the fans their right of expressing disapproval with a few of his creative choices. The creators are not always right. Input from fans is critical to making your property a success. Just look at what DC did with Jason Todd.

Imagine what films, comic books, and everything else would be like if writers and artists just bent over everytime a group of fans whined. Fans like you ALYWAS think you know better than the people that have been in the business for years, but you don't.

The creative goal of any good artist is to satisfy his audience, not play renegade. The fan community is always the most vocal segment of the audience, and it's always important to take their feedback into consideration.

And no, those in the "biz" do not know better than the fans. Making Raiden a whiny, gutless feminine prick and the almost entire final act of MGS2 is proof of just how awry things can go when you let Kojima loose.

What should come first to a writer, or an artist, a director, a video game designer? What he wants or what a group of fans want?

When it comes to any well-known intellectual property backed by a committed group of admirers, then you obviously have to go with what the fans want. And in such cases, the only directors who play "my way or the highway" are the likes of Uwe Boll and Paul W. Anderson. Betcha love them both don't you, since they are particularly well-known for standing up for what they want.

Do you know why movies have become increasingly stale over the years? Studios try to please everybody. Instead of honouring an artistic vision, they step in and say "Hmm, actually, this character should talk like this, such and such should wear this, tone down the swearing" etc etc etc.

Trying to correlate the similiarities between studios interfering with creative properties for increased monetary benefit and fans offering their opinions for no other reason except that their favorite franchise be the best that it can be is stupid beyond all comprehension.

As far as I've seen, there hasn't been a big uproar about the 'tash. And if it is a trivial matter (which it is), then I can certainly picture someone saying to Kojima "Hey Hideo, a bunch of fans, maybe a few thousand at the very most, don't like the 'tash. Wanna give him a beard instead?", and then Hideo would say ".... Nah!".

How do you know that only a "bunch of fans, maybe a few thousand" don't like the moustache? Did you go out and take a survey? What's your source? A couple of internet message boards that consist of no more than a couple hundred thousand posters out of what, the millions of gamers who bought MGS games?

Do try not to look like an even bigger fool than what you've already passed yourself to be.

You post an awfully long post, but you say very little.

That is because I'm precise and objective. I address specific parts of a post and speak only what's necessary to get the point across. Not like you, who cherry-picks a single paragraph and goes on a 1000 word rant that has little to no substance or relevance to the topic at hand.

Your argument boils down to this - Solid Snake should lose the 'tash for the sake of nostalgia and recognition. But, just making Snake old already makes him look very different. Fans still recognise the guy. It's like you said, he's still got the sneak suit and bandana. I wouldn't say he even needs the sneak suit to be recognised. Minor changes to his look have been made to mirror the fact that it's a few years down the line and Snake is getting on a bit. That includes the 'tash!!

Why can't you grasp the simple and obvious fact that the moustache is not the only way to show Snake's age. If anything, a beard or a stubble highlight Snake's age a lot more effectively than the moustache. It also seems inappropriate for yet another reason - Snake doesn't seem to be one who's concerned with appearances, which is why the scruffy beard and the mullet fit so well with the character. It shows the indifference and lack of care on his part when it comes to maintaining his appearance. A clean shaven jawline with a thick moustache is not something you'd expect to see on someone like Snake, especially when he's gotten older.

Which is exactly my problem with the moustache. Snake looks unnecessarily different and improper, what with the 80's pornstar reject thing he has going for him there. The moustache seems out of place and sticks out like a sore thumb. And as you can see from the manips, he looks infinitely better with a stubble or a scruffy beard, not to mention a lot more recognizable as "Solid Snake" instead of some Ron Jeremy wannabe with a sneaking suit and a bandanna.

Your argument about Batman and Peter Parker. Ever read Dark Knight Returns?? Bruce Wayne was old... and he had a mustache. He shaved it off when he decided to be Batman again, simply because the mustache isn't practical or good looking with his mask.

That's a piss poor example, which actually undercuts your own point instead of reinforcing it.

In DKR, the moustache was a way of showing that Bruce had changed. He was no longer the man he used to be, he had become a shadow of his former self. The unsuspecting removal of the moustache by Wayne was to highlight that Bruce was slowly but unconsiously reverting back to his former self, which is exactly why Bruce himself was surprised when he suddenly realised he had shaven it off. The moustache was an aesthetical instrument to personify the change in Bruce Wayne's character.

If fact, the DKR example can be presented as a valid example against Snake's moustache in MGS4.

There you go. That's TWO characters, both of them over 40 years old, neither of them ever had beards or mustaches before the stories I mentioned, and yet...

A stubble is a common device used by artists and writers to show fatigue, weakness or despair in characters that are otherwise clean-shaven. Full beards or moustaches, however, are another thing entirely. DKR and Spider-Girl are not exactly part of a standard continuity like the MGS storyline, which further nullifies the applicability of your examples in this argument, since they are not directly related to the growth and progression of a character as you so claim.

You complaining about this is like an artist thinking that, just for a few months maybe, Peter Parker could have a beard, and then fans complaining about it. It's so insignificant.

I repeat: change simply for the sake of change are nothing but meaningless stunts or some feeble attempts at needlessly trying to be different.

I don't think fans should lick the ass of creators.

Really? Because that's exactly what you seem to be doing with your "fans are wrong, creators are right" banter.

But I do think a creator's vision should be honoured.

Only when it is worthy of being honored. Otherwise, according to your standard, we'd have to praise the "vision" of every little talentless hack behind a camera or a computer just because they are "creators".

There is a balance between the two of those. I'm trying to think of a good example. Punisher. The Punisher movie. I listened to the dvd commentary on that, and the director was saying how alot of reviewers were saying it was too brutal and too dark. But the thing that got me, was that the director actually couldn't really argue against that. But Thomas Jane, in an interview he made a great point. The Punisher movie was made for a certain group of people, and that group of people like the movie because it's brutal and dark! If anything, it wasn't brutal enough!! Studios, man! They get involved in the creative process, trying to give movies more mass appeal, when they should just get out of the damn way. Reviewers can also sometimes be overly PC.

Haven't seen The Punisher.

It's the same for fans. Sometimes, fans need to step aside and just let creators do their work. Snake is supposed to be old! The 'tash reflects his oldness!

And a beard or a stubble reflects his oldness even better! Damn, why is that so hard to get through your thick skull?

My Bart Simpson argument is still valid. Is Snake a Bart Simpson, or does he evolve and change? He evolves and he changes. He decided to get a 'tash. Deal with it.

As far as I recall, the only official reason Kojima gave about giving Snake that stupid pornstar moustache was because he wanted to show the PS3's rendering power. Which consequently makes your "Snake has a moustache because he's old" babble very much pointless.

You can't change it. It's nothing to get upset about. The only thing you can do is deal with it. You'll know that we'll all love the game when it comes out. Maybe the 'tash will grow on you.

I hate the 'stache. Kojima reprised his work as director because of the fans. I believe with adequate pressure, changing that 'stache to a beard or a stubble is a comparitively minute thing. There's still hope. E3's just around the corner now.

Whether or not Snake is a cardboard character has everything to do with his physical appearance.

...I think I actually lost a precious few braincells reading that nonsense.

So, anyone who's conservative with his appearance is a carboard character? Well damn, remind me to slap all those jackass writers and journalists who have hailed a "cardboard character" like Muhammad Ali as one of the most dynamic, charismatic and admired personalities of the past century, simply because the man didn't as much as grow a moustache, beard or even change his freakin' haircut for as long as the public knew him.

Snake, much like a real person, goes from having no facial hair, to having a beard, to having a 'tash.

And what a ridiculous progression that is.

His sneak suit changes.

Chalk it up to technological advancements. Nothing to do specifically with the character himself.

In MGS3, he didn't have a sneak suit at all.

That's because it took place in the freakin' 60's during the Cold War era, chimpy.

Hell, it wasn't even Solid Snake in part 3.

That's because of the timeline the story is based on. Isn't that obvious?

MGS is a series that changes very dramatically from one game to the next.

Like I said, change is good as long as it is within the realm of reason.

We're going to start going around in circles. The argument for the mustache is that Snake has aged, the eye gadget mirrors that, the 'tash mirrors it. Minor changes to his look. And he looks like a badass (in my, and others opinions). The argument against, Snake should stay with the same look from other games for the sake of nostalgia, recognition, and because it might be his last outing.

There is no reasonably favorable argument for the moustache. Period. When it comes to highlighting Snake's age, the moustache is actually less effective compared to a scruffy beard or a stubble.

I still say a big factor is personal taste. If you thought mustache looked good, you wouldn't be making these arguments.

I believe only a ****** would even try to find any other justification for me hating Snake's moustache other than the fact that I maintain it doesn't look good.

 

[XwolverineX]

I've got a couple of MGS news for you guys:

-Mei Ling will be in MGS4.
-There will be TWO new trailers at E3 (But it remains to be seen if both are for MGS4), as well as a new MGS4 Passport.
-Kojima confirmed in his latest Japanese blog that a Metal Gear movie IS moving forward.

Who's she again?

 

[Electro UK]

Who's she again?

the girl that saved your data in MGS1... told a lot of Chinese proverbs that Otacon tried to rip off in the next game. If you saved a certain amount of times on Tanker in MGS2, she made another appearance.

 

[XwolverineX]

the girl that saved your data in MGS1... told a lot of Chinese proverbs that Otacon tried to rip off in the next game. If you saved a certain amount of times on Tanker in MGS2, she made another appearance.

Okay, I think I remembered her. But at the end of MGS1 didn't she let out a major secret or something?