Comics Howard Mackie relaunch/Jenkins PP run compared to BND

[imdaly]

Another Comparison between the Mackie and BND run
is that they are BOTH dumb moves on top of dumb moves.

Mackie chose to kill off Mj after the lame reboot.

Where as The brain trust chose to characterize her as a **** after OMD.

MJ's a **** because she's been with one other guy since she and Peter broke up who knows how long ago??

Ooookayyy?

 

[Styleshift]

Unless its just really bad writing (and I know you dare not refer to it that way Imdaly ), she obviously knows SOMETHING.
Which in turn makes me view her as ****ty.

 

[imdaly]

Unless its just really bad writing (and I know you dare not refer to it that way Imdaly ), she obviously knows SOMETHING.
Which in turn makes me view her as ****ty.

You're so quick to call someone ****ty because of something you think they might know, when you don't even know what it is they know.

 

[arachnid-guy]

Ugh. Just reading that comparison made me realise once again how contrived and muddles the editorials are making Spider-Man in recent years.

JMS was the best thing to happen to Spidey, after all that [and we can assume that had he COMPLETE writing freedom- like Brubaker, or Bendis in their respective titles- that the pay-off wouldn't be marred with Goblin childs or devil deals there would be REAL resolution and an ending] but you could argue that given the convoluted continuity that Spidey lives in- its better to re-start.

That's why I'm only collecting Ultimate Spider-Man.

 

[Styleshift]

You're so quick to call someone ****ty because of something you think they might know, when you don't even know what it is they know.

not quick, this issue happened months back.


hmm, so you are you going to admit it's bad writing right?
They did give a reason for her to be with Carr, because in a way his celebrity status resembles Spidey. but cmon shes calling this dude tiger and is in bed with him? Mr. slap a waitress?

 

[shinlyle]

No, the big difference is that Mackie's writing was trash while BND is at least readable.

Yeah...except that 36 issues of "readable" isn't mush better than 12 issues of "Trash". At least Mackie's run didn't cost over $100 per year.

 

[imdaly]

not quick, this issue happened months back.

Yes, quick. It doesn't matter if it happened months back. That 3-parter was all we've seen of MJ since the OMD so far. All we've seen of her is her at home with her boyfriend.

hmm, so you are you going to admit it's bad writing right?
They did give a reason for her to be with Carr, because in a way his celebrity status resembles Spidey. but cmon shes calling this dude tiger and is in bed with him? Mr. slap a waitress?

No, it's not bad writing. Not IMO at least. You can't call it "bad writing" just because you are basically jealous for Peter that MJ is with another man now.

You see MJ as someone who's just out to get with someone who's got a celebrity status. I see MJ as the model/actress she is and realizes that she's going to meet some other famous people in her life and could very possibly enter a relationship with one along the way. Nothing ****ty about that.

Of course she calls him Tiger! That's her nickname that she uses for her boyfriends!

And heaven forbid MJ be in bed with her boyfriend!

 

[moraldeficiency]

I gotta say I've seen no one able to contradict Miken's original point with anything better than "mackie's a bad writer" which kinda further's Miken's argument.

 

[Blader5489]

I gotta say I've seen no one able to contradict Miken's original point with anything better than "mackie's a bad writer" which kinda further's Miken's argument.

That's because he isn't the first person in the last NINE MONTHS to raise that point, nor is it all that important anyway. "Mackie's a bad writer" isn't some throwaway argument, it's what separates now from then. Sales weren't poor because of the status quo--since as we've seen, even still today, there are fans of what was being done during that era--but rather because of the terrible writing.

 

[shinlyle]

That's because he isn't the first person in the last NINE MONTHS to raise that point, nor is it all that important anyway. "Mackie's a bad writer" isn't some throwaway argument, it's what separates now from then. Sales weren't poor because of the status quo--since as we've seen, even still today, there are fans of what was being done during that era--but rather because of the terrible writing.

No one's arguing that Mackie is a bad writer, but it is worth mentioning that the current brain trust on ASM consists entirely of good writers....writing bad to average stories. How is that not just as bad?

Can you imagine if this group of writers and artists had been put on ASM WITHOUT an unneccesarily sloppy reboot?! Sales would be DOUBLE what they are, and ASM would be Marvel's primo flagship title again.

Also, I don't find Mackie to be totally horrible. He wasn't given alot to work with then, you know. Also, alot of the Mackie-hatred is from the Chapter One reboot, which he didn't write. Were the stories bad? Yeah. Were they more out of character than a satan-powered Spider-Man? Hell No.

 

[shinlyle]

I gotta say I've seen no one able to contradict Miken's original point with anything better than "mackie's a bad writer" which kinda further's Miken's argument.

Precisely. People can distract from the topic, but it doesn't make the guy any less correct.

 

[Styleshift]

Yes, quick. It doesn't matter if it happened months back. That 3-parter was all we've seen of MJ since the OMD so far. All we've seen of her is her at home with her boyfriend. No, it's not bad writing. Not IMO at least. You can't call it "bad writing" just because you are basically jealous for Peter that MJ is with another man now.

You see MJ as someone who's just out to get with someone who's got a celebrity status. I see MJ as the model/actress she is and realizes that she's going to meet some other famous people in her life and could very possibly enter a relationship with one along the way. Nothing ****ty about that.

Of course she calls him Tiger! That's her nickname that she uses for her boyfriends!



And heaven forbid MJ be in bed with her boyfriend!

I really don't feel like arguing about this....
Since you always seem to totally disregard the topic at hand to twist things in your favor. Although I usually do respect your posts, and I admit I should have been more clear about what I meant, Imdaly so forgive me please.

All of this story telling "thus far" is cluttered and you know it. But you'd rather not acknowledge it. Instead of CLEANING spider-man up they only created more problems. The clone saga STILL has unanswered questions, Mackie's run STILL has unanswered questions, JMS' run STILL has unanswered questions, and now BND is born out of an EVEN MORE CONVOLUTED world that Queseda and crew has created for Spider-man. They want us to believe that every answer will be revealed. no way they are going to back track and retell all of the stories with Peter and MJ unmarried. no freakin way dude.

(Now back on topic....lol. )

There's a difference between suggestion and revelations.

MJ knows. She remembers the deal cut with Mephisto, she KNOWS that she and Peter were married, and now she's hooked up with Someone who's named is a reference to faust?

this is not hinted at all this is DEFINITELY explicit. If it is not why refer to it so many times through out the book? If it is not explicit as shown, it is BAD WRITING! (yes I am a big dan fan.)

Now I think Carr might have more to do with OMD than it may seem. I have a feeling we'll be seeing him again someday in the future.

Now answer this for me. Her and Peter were dating and were best friends. Why did it take those two so long to be in bed together? It took this guy 3 months? what makes him so special? Their whole history is SO convuluted it's not even funny. I just don't understand how some of you guys buy into it and connect it to the past so seamlessly. I personally don't believe MJ would put up with Peter's antiques for so long if they were not married.

 

[Styleshift]

No one's arguing that Mackie is a bad writer, but it is worth mentioning that the current brain trust on ASM consists entirely of good writers....writing bad to average stories. How is that not just as bad?

Can you imagine if this group of writers and artists had been put on ASM WITHOUT an unneccesarily sloppy reboot?! Sales would be DOUBLE what they are, and ASM would be Marvel's primo flagship title again.

Also, I don't find Mackie to be totally horrible. He wasn't given alot to work with then, you know. Also, alot of the Mackie-hatred is from the Chapter One reboot, which he didn't write. Were the stories bad? Yeah. Were they more out of character than a satan-powered Spider-Man? Hell No.

Mackie did have some good stories here and there, The only one I can think of right now is the return of the spider-slayers.

I believe these writers are being held back. ALL of them are really good, but they either both trying to copy a formula from the 70s era that is far played out and in most cases they have to write in a box and cannot freely express them selves as they would if they were working alone.

 

[moraldeficiency]

That's because he isn't the first person in the last NINE MONTHS to raise that point, nor is it all that important anyway. "Mackie's a bad writer" isn't some throwaway argument, it's what separates now from then. Sales weren't poor because of the status quo--since as we've seen, even still today, there are fans of what was being done during that era--but rather because of the terrible writing.

but if they're using this "bad writers" ideas almost directly wouldn't that make BND basis bad writing?

We can debate the why's of the past all day, but we know it's really a confluence of factors.

So we've come to the conclusion that the only difference between BND and the Mackie relaunch (with the exception of liferape, mystical abortions, and a big middle finger to god) is the quality of the writing and nothing more? I couldn't think of a more damning indictment of BND than what you just asserted Blader.

 

[imdaly]

All of this story telling "thus far" is cluttered and you know it. But you'd rather not acknowledge it. Instead of CLEANING spider-man up they only created more problems. The clone saga STILL has unanswered questions, Mackie's run STILL has unanswered questions, JMS' run STILL has unanswered questions, and now BND is born out of an EVEN MORE CONVOLUTED world that Queseda and crew has created for Spider-man. They want us to believe that every answer will be revealed. no way they are going to back track and retell all of the stories with Peter and MJ unmarried. no freakin way dude.

I can't blame a writer for not going back an cleaning up messes that previous writers created. Also, I respectfully disagree that the storytelling is cluttered at all. You see a cluttered mess. I see a good mystery with "what happened in those missing months, and how did we get to the status we're seeing today?" And the simple fact that this entire new status quo for Peter and his world has been planned for something like 2 YEARS before the first issue ever came out tells me that, yeah, I believe that the answers ARE coming regarding OMD/BND. The fact that they've known about this for 2 years has let Marvel purposely plant important seeds (Such as the A:TI #7 issue) way ahead of time so that they can be referenced back to later on as a way to help explain the questions we have.

Are they going to go back and retell all of the stories with Peter and MJ unmarried? Absolutely not. I wouldn't want them to! But since we don't know the answers to exactly how everything (or at least people's memories) have been changed yet, we have to keep our minds open to the very possibility that the writers have an answer up their sleeves that covers a wide range of our "well what really happened back then?" questions so that they don't HAVE to go back and answer those.

There's a difference between suggestion and revelations.

Exactly.

MJ knows. She remembers the deal cut with Mephisto, she KNOWS that she and Peter were married...

This was suggested. A wise man once told me that "there's a difference between suggestion and revelations." None of us know what MJ knows right now, or if she even DOES know anything. And you are using this assumption to base the rest of your current disgust with MJ on.

and now she's hooked up with Someone who's named is a reference to faust?

And you would only know this by looking up the guy's name on the internet. This could very very very easily just be some teasing and red-herring-ing (?) on the part of the writers.

this is not hinted at all this is DEFINITELY explicit. If it is not why refer to it so many times through out the book? If it is not explicit as shown, it is BAD WRITING! (yes I am a big dan fan.)

It's not explicit in the least bit. It's little jabs. Could mean something. Could just be a little wink towards the readers that the writers are aware of us readers' theories. It could just be a big "We know what you're thinking...keep reading to find out if you're right". It's not explicit. And it's not bad writing. It's having fun with a story.

Now I think Carr might have more to do with OMD than it may seem. I have a feeling we'll be seeing him again someday in the future.

We probably will. He is dating MJ right now after all.

Now answer this for me. Her and Peter were dating and were best friends. Why did it take those two so long to be in bed together? It took this guy 3 months? what makes him so special? Their whole history is SO convuluted it's not even funny. I just don't understand how some of you guys buy into it and connect it to the past so seamlessly. I personally don't believe MJ would put up with Peter's antiques for so long if they were not married.

I know of some couples that have been dating for YEARS, but never have gotten married.

And to think that it took a while for MJ and Peter sleep together, but that MJ didn't wait that long for her guy now doesn't mean anything at all. Different couples have different times when it's first "right" for them. For MJ and Peter there was definitely more substance to the relationship. It was more real. So maybe they didn't feel like rushing into bed with each other at first? Maybe Peter himself wanted to wait? Who knows? I myself know can point to different relationships I've had where with some girls we waited months, while others we hopped right to it. Does that make me a ****? Haha. I'd hope not. What's right for one couple isn't necessarily right for another.

 

[fifthfiend]

I'm very tempted to go through your post history and see if ANY of your 304 posts so far have anything positive to say about things.

I'm sorry, but you really come off to me like the Comic Book Guy on The Simpsons who just seems to get off thinking that everything is the worst. thing. ever.

Come on, Sunshine! Put on a happy face!

Bwahahaha, look at the guy hanging out on comic book internet message boards who's accusing someone else of being the Comic Book Guy.

Oh that's just too precious for words.

 

[fifthfiend]

I can't blame a writer for not going back an cleaning up messes that previous writers created. Also, I respectfully disagree that the storytelling is cluttered at all. You see a cluttered mess. I see a good mystery with "what happened in those missing months, and how did we get to the status we're seeing today?" And the simple fact that this entire new status quo for Peter and his world has been planned for something like 2 YEARS before the first issue ever came out tells me that, yeah, I believe that the answers ARE coming regarding OMD/BND. The fact that they've known about this for 2 years has let Marvel purposely plant important seeds (Such as the A:TI #7 issue) way ahead of time so that they can be referenced back to later on as a way to help explain the questions we have.

The killer is that you actually believe all of that.

Soooo precious!

 

[imdaly]

Bwahahaha, look at the guy hanging out on comic book internet message boards who's accusing someone else of being the Comic Book Guy.

Oh that's just too precious for words.

Oh, I definitely understand the irony. I'm absolutely a comic book nerd. The difference being that CBG and Miken seem so share the hatred of everything that comes out and like to constantly proclaim how it's the worst thing ever. I, on the other hand, enjoy a lot of what I read...which is why I read it!

The killer is that you actually believe all of that.

Soooo precious!

Yes. How precious of me to trust the direct word from the current writers of the stories themselves over the word of the people that only read (or in some cases they don't even do THAT much!) them. You obviously know so much more about the upcoming stories and revelations than the people who are actually plotting and writing them!

Precious, indeed.

 

[Blader5489]

but if they're using this "bad writers" ideas almost directly wouldn't that make BND basis bad writing?

We can debate the why's of the past all day, but we know it's really a confluence of factors.

So we've come to the conclusion that the only difference between BND and the Mackie relaunch (with the exception of liferape, mystical abortions, and a big middle finger to god) is the quality of the writing and nothing more? I couldn't think of a more damning indictment of BND than what you just asserted Blader.

I really don't think the BND writers are consciously imitating Mackie's ideas.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

Now during this time there was a subplot going where Peter and Mary Jane learn that "May is still alive". We're led to believe this means their daughter, but it ends up being Aunt May who was thought to have been dead the past four years. (Kinda like Harry right now)

I didn't realise bringing a comic character back from the dead was a Macki original.

Well anyways We find out that Norman Osborn implanted some sort of microchip or something in her head that if left in would kill her, and if taken out would set off several clusters of pumpkin bombs strategically placed all over the city. Spider-Man get's desperate pounds the dog crap out of Osborn, and races back to Reed Richards to let him know the situation. They then disable the chip without setting off the bombs or killing her. (Save Aunt May = reboot)

In The Master Planner Arc Spidey saves Aunt May with some made up serum, after that the enitre status quo changes, Spidey's in college, he starts to become popular and soon as two babes after him, a new artist even comes in. Spidey's world changing completely = reboot

Peter quits, and the new series begins with the MU asking where Spider-Man is.

Amazing Spider-Man 50. Secret Wars

They make it clear that he hasn't been in costume for sometime. So anyway a new Spider-Man shows up that ends up being Mattie Franklin from the Gathering of Five (Remember when Screwball was Spider-Man?).

Remember the Mysterio, the Prowler?

So next a whole slew of uninteresting villains are brought in(In BND we get Screwball, Paper Doll, Overdrive, Mr. Negative, Menace, Loli Kraven, Anti Venom and any others I might've missed),

Well that's just subjective

Mary Jane seemingly dies and after her death is accepted Peter does show interest in other women,

Pete clearly has a thang for Charlie and he seems to have a constant rocket everytime he's aroung Lily. So that comparison doesn't work

Peter loses his job which leads to him struggling with his rent, He rooms with Robbie Robertson and it leads in to Peter making new friends,

Clearly another Mackie original

AND about ten months in when the new villains aren't cutting it classic villains start poking their heads in including Eddie Brock reuniting with his symbiote to be Venom again (New Ways to DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE!). Also in there is an issue where Peter needs to catch the badguy in time to get to a job interview. (Howard Mackie did that by himself. Quesada needed the whole braintrust to steal that from him)

Um, you do realise that these guys plotted this stuff out like two years ago? Which means when they wrote these stories they had no idea whatsoever how the new villians would be percieved. So again not a good camparison.

Over this period of time we get story arcs and subplots that do nothing but raise an assload of questions. However whenever we get the tiniest insight to what's happening it only raises more questions and a lot of these remain unanswered today.

These stories were written, some finished, before OMD was even plotted. And, as we know, the results of OMD were decided on until late in the process of the plotting, so how can they give answers to question they don't know. Contrast with Mackie who created the questions and still didn't give the answers.

Sound like a lot what we're getting today?

Sounds a lot like what we've been getting since 1962.

Superhero's are not a complicated bunch, they're are certain staples that are constant through out their run, staples that are constantly going to be repeating/ Are we really saying that these two era's are exactly the same because new viallians were introduced and Peter Parker had money worries?

People are in here calling MJ a **** and complaining about continuity and then screaming for JMS. There was one issue of Spidey, just before the other where, after sex, MJ says, "You know the first time I found out you're secret, I thought tomyself what would a guy be like who could stick to walls with his fingers. As I recall I fainted." That means that MJ, aged 15, thought about boneing Peter as Aunt May cried about her dead husband and Peter went out to seak revenge. I mean talk about ****ty. Unless, of course, he changed a major piece of continuity for a throwaway joke.

And why do people care so much about continuity? It has to change or the character gets stale. No other meduim explores the character for as long as comics do. Could you imagine a TV show running this long? Stan lee said it himself, the characters last so long because eventually a writer changes them completely.

 

[Venom 1988]

I dunno I've liked some of the new BND villains.

 

[Themanofbat]

I dunno I've liked some of the new BND villains.

As have I ....

I can't believe that comics have de-evolved do much since the 70's/80's that what people used to call "mysteries" are now reffered to as simply unanswered questions and that makes them mad because they have to wait...

 

[Styleshift]

I can't blame a writer for not going back an cleaning up messes that previous writers created. Also, I respectfully disagree that the storytelling is cluttered at all. You see a cluttered mess. I see a good mystery with "what happened in those missing months, and how did we get to the status we're seeing today?" And the simple fact that this entire new status quo for Peter and his world has been planned for something like 2 YEARS before the first issue ever came out tells me that, yeah, I believe that the answers ARE coming regarding OMD/BND. The fact that they've known about this for 2 years has let Marvel purposely plant important seeds (Such as the A:TI #7 issue) way ahead of time so that they can be referenced back to later on as a way to help explain the questions we have.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame any of the BND writers.
When you no longer know anything about the characters of a story that you've followed for years, somethings wrong. reboots aren't attractive to me. It's why I'm a full time marvel fan. Because DC does reboots so often I am a casual fan. I'm able to go back only for arcs instead of having them on my pull list at all times. Reboots don't bother me unless they are POORLY constructed. You can plan something for 50 years but it's all up to how you execute it in the end.

But dude I am a HUGE HUGE HUGE! (huge...) Mystery fan.
Spider-man + Mystery = success in my eyes. but if you want a good mystery, this isn't it.

Read Batman the long Halloween ,best TPB mystery I own. Hell its not even solved but it was well written. (If you already haven't) You'll thank me later.....

Are they going to go back and retell all of the stories with Peter and MJ unmarried? Absolutely not. I wouldn't want them to! But since we don't know the answers to exactly how everything (or at least people's memories) have been changed yet, we have to keep our minds open to the very possibility that the writers have an answer up their sleeves that covers a wide range of our "well what really happened back then?" questions so that they don't HAVE to go back and answer those.

It's way too much to go back on dude.
Point is there had to be a cleaner way of breaking Peter and MJ up.

IF NOT
I would have liked Seeing Peter give up his marriage, his one piece of happiness in his life. through screwing with the timeline or something. things have gotten REALLY bad for not only Peter but his family.
I would have loved to see him make the choice to screw with the time line (through another means than mephisto) to protect his family. not to save his ELDERLY (keyword) aunt that wants to be left alone just so he won't feel guilty. I mean cmon the dude even ended up aborting his child.

Exactly.



This was suggested. A wise man once told me that "there's a difference between suggestion and revelations." None of us know what MJ knows right now, or if she even DOES know anything. And you are using this assumption to base the rest of your current disgust with MJ on.

AWWWW you think I'm wise? I'm blushing....
yea I do see your point. Dan does like to screw with the audience. but still to bring up the same crap more than once, I think the answer was just teased in our faces. I've read interviews saying most of the answers are in the same books we read. HUGE hints that can be missed are layed out.

And you would only know this by looking up the guy's name on the internet. This could very very very easily just be some teasing and red-herring-ing (?) on the part of the writers.

Actually stillanerd looked that up....
I just kind of borrowed the info. lol
Still I think there is more to mr. carr than it seems.

It's not explicit in the least bit. It's little jabs. Could mean something. Could just be a little wink towards the readers that the writers are aware of us readers' theories. It could just be a big "We know what you're thinking...keep reading to find out if you're right". It's not explicit. And it's not bad writing. It's having fun with a story.



We probably will. He is dating MJ right now after all.

Already answered this, im just too lazy to correct the quote. lol.

I know of some couples that have been dating for YEARS, but never have gotten married.

And to think that it took a while for MJ and Peter sleep together, but that MJ didn't wait that long for her guy now doesn't mean anything at all. Different couples have different times when it's first "right" for them. For MJ and Peter there was definitely more substance to the relationship. It was more real. So maybe they didn't feel like rushing into bed with each other at first? Maybe Peter himself wanted to wait? Who knows? I myself know can point to different relationships I've had where with some girls we waited months, while others we hopped right to it. Does that make me a ****? Haha. I'd hope not. What's right for one couple isn't necessarily right for another.

True but there is more commitment when two people are married. Mj could get have gotten fed up (and she has ALOT) and walked away at ANY time.

Alot of the stories don't work now because they "officially weren't married" during that time. Alot of the major stories still work. I mean you can really look at it either way. Thing is ALOT of readers have to accept BND as an alternate universe to enjoy it. I find it annoying anytime OMD is referenced. I wish they would just move on or at least answer the freakin questions and give us some GOOD stories without writing in a box. it's been 8 months already and NOTHING, has been confirmed about this book. there are just too many freaking questions.

I hope you understand my concerns. The storys are in no way horrible, they are just hampered because the writers have to write in a box. It feels too much like filler issues most of the time. Good point about the "right time" though.

I'll let You win on that Imdaly. lol.

*Opens mouth, inserts foot*

 

[stillanerd]

Actually stillanerd looked that up....
I just kind of borrowed the info. lol
Still I think there is more to mr. carr than it seems.

That's it, shove me into the line of fire, why don't you. t: But seriously, given what I found about Robert Carr and you combine that with all the other references made towards One More Day in the Pappazzi arc, it seems more than mere coincidence.

But, back to the topic at hand, a guy named Julio Barone at one time did a compare and contrast to Mackie's reboot and Brand New Day on Scans Daily and there were actually quite a lot of similarities, especially with regards to the supporting cast. Basically, he makes a compelling case that Carlie Cooper is the shy and sweet young woman who has eyes for Peter, not unlike Gwen's cousin Jill Stacy did in the Mackie reboot. That Harry Osborn is in the same position Randy Robertson was--that of the club hopping divorce. And that, like Lily Hollister, Glory Grant serves as the club hopping divorce's token girlfriend and future ex-wife.

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4803909.html

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

And why do people care so much about continuity? It has to change or the character gets stale. No other meduim explores the character for as long as comics do. Could you imagine a TV show running this long? Stan lee said it himself, the characters last so long because eventually a writer changes them completely.

People do care about continuity because it gives some sort of cohesion to the characters' world.

Funny that you should mention that things should change or things get stale cause BND is re-hashing the 70s... talk about stale...

Also about Change... Fans who dislike OMD/BND are not against change, but against STUPID Change; which has been all that we've seen the past few years at Spidey-land... and all of these changes have been swept under the rug... proving that they were filler crap for the reboot (Which feels like a SATANIC version of the Mackie Reboot)