I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[spiderwyze]

The Doom character is more important in FF lore than the Human Torch.

Defend or deny this statement.

I deny it on the basis that a Fantastic Four story can do without Victor Von Doom more effectively than it can do without Johnny Storm.

While it's true that at one point or another each of the original Fantastic Four members has been replaced (and Doom himself once counted himself on the long list of replacements), none of the replacements has ever been permanent. The roster has also reverted to the original four members; Reed Richards, Susan Storm, Benjamin Grimm, and Johnny Storm. The F4 is one of the few superhero teams in comics that hasn't worked as well without the original roster intact, because they are all tightly-knit characters with a shared origin.

Most view Johnny as the juvenile member of the group, and therefore unnecessary. After all, he's not the only funny member of the group; Ben and Sue are just as capable of humor (even Reed is capable of it, in his own subtle way). However, he serves as a direct counterpoint to Reed Richards, the most seemingly staid and mature of the Four. As Mark Waid pointed out, while Reed serves as the superego of their group-mind (keeping everything else in check), Johnny embodies the impulsive id. While Sue is Reed's emotional counterpoint and Ben plays the brawn to Reed's brains, Johnny's impulsive, risk-taking nature is a sharp contrast to Richards' need to ensure the safety of his teammates. Again, citing Waid, while the Avengers' battle cry is something uplifting like "Avengers Assemble", the Fantastic Four's time honored exclamation is, "Johnny, WAIT!"

Yes, I'm well aware of "It's Clobberin' Time", but that one is exclusively Ben's domain.

Doom is the archenemy of the entire team, but most notably of Reed Richards. After all, Von Doom's hatred for Reed had begun in college out of misplaced anger. However, Doom is more Reed's rival than his counterpoint. Their mastery of the sciences are only rivaled by each other, and in terms of what they bring to a team, they are more alike than they are different. Consequently, they butt heads in a way that's entirely different from the way Johnny and Reed clash. Johnny and Reed just don't relate to each other much, but they trust each other implicitly.

I think Johnny's contribution to the team is actually underrated. He's the first one to drain the seriousness out of a situation when everything's become too angsty. And his enthusiasm is a lot of fun to watch. The way he interacts with his teammates is great fun as well; Doom, on the other hand, drives everyone way.

I'm not at any point saying Doom isn't an important character, but in terms of importance to the Fantastic Four, he contributes far less than Johnny Storm in terms of what the team is about.


I get the feeling I'm going to be drawn and quartered for this.

 

[Pyromania]

I absolutly agree. The FF without Doom is still the FF, but without the Torch it becomes something totally different.

 

[Herr Logan]

I deny it on the basis that a Fantastic Four story can do without Victor Von Doom more effectively than it can do without Johnny Storm.

While it's true that at one point or another each of the original Fantastic Four members has been replaced (and Doom himself once counted himself on the long list of replacements), none of the replacements has ever been permanent. The roster has also reverted to the original four members; Reed Richards, Susan Storm, Benjamin Grimm, and Johnny Storm. The F4 is one of the few superhero teams in comics that hasn't worked as well without the original roster intact, because they are all tightly-knit characters with a shared origin.

Most view Johnny as the juvenile member of the group, and therefore unnecessary. After all, he's not the only funny member of the group; Ben and Sue are just as capable of humor (even Reed is capable of it, in his own subtle way). However, he serves as a direct counterpoint to Reed Richards, the most seemingly staid and mature of the Four. As Mark Waid pointed out, while Reed serves as the superego of their group-mind (keeping everything else in check), Johnny embodies the impulsive id. While Sue is Reed's emotional counterpoint and Ben plays the brawn to Reed's brains, Johnny's impulsive, risk-taking nature is a sharp contrast to Richards' need to ensure the safety of his teammates. Again, citing Waid, while the Avengers' battle cry is something uplifting like "Avengers Assemble", the Fantastic Four's time honored exclamation is, "Johnny, WAIT!"

Yes, I'm well aware of "It's Clobberin' Time", but that one is exclusively Ben's domain.

Doom is the archenemy of the entire team, but most notably of Reed Richards. After all, Von Doom's hatred for Reed had begun in college out of misplaced anger. However, Doom is more Reed's rival than his counterpoint. Their mastery of the sciences are only rivaled by each other, and in terms of what they bring to a team, they are more alike than they are different. Consequently, they butt heads in a way that's entirely different from the way Johnny and Reed clash. Johnny and Reed just don't relate to each other much, but they trust each other implicitly.

I think Johnny's contribution to the team is actually underrated. He's the first one to drain the seriousness out of a situation when everything's become too angsty. And his enthusiasm is a lot of fun to watch. The way he interacts with his teammates is great fun as well; Doom, on the other hand, drives everyone way.

I'm not at any point saying Doom isn't an important character, but in terms of importance to the Fantastic Four, he contributes far less than Johnny Storm in terms of what the team is about.


I get the feeling I'm going to be drawn and quartered for this.

That was intelligent and well-researched.

It does not, however, in any way, shape, or form indicate that it's acceptable to change Doom's character the way we know he is going to be changed. Either they know how to portray all the principal characters correctly or they don't. It's just that simple.

 

[The Navigator]

That was intelligent and well-researched.

It does not, however, in any way, shape, or form indicate that it's acceptable to change Doom's character the way we know he is going to be changed. Either they know how to portray all the principal characters correctly or they don't. It's just that simple.

...or that they're choosing to portray some of the characters correctly and one not. Why, you ask? Because execs and fans are like opposite sides of a coin: we never see eye-to-eye. Execs think that a modern-day monarch in a small but nuclear-capable country is "unrealistic." Fans remember that superhero comics in the first place are "unrealisitic," and can therefore suspend disbelief.

 

[Sardaukar]

Execs think that a modern-day monarch in a small but nuclear-capable country is "unrealistic."

That makes no sense.

 

[The Navigator]

That makes no sense.

What I said, or what they think? Look at Saddam Hussein for a better example of how "unrealistic" Doom's premise is. Granted, Doom's a lot more magnificent than Saddam....

 

[Sardaukar]

What I said, or what they think? Look at Saddam Hussein for a better example of how "unrealistic" Doom's premise is. Granted, Doom's a lot more magnificent than Saddam....

I agree with you.

Plus, you just have to look at the recent strife in Serbia and Croatia to justify the possiblity of a dictator popping up in Eastern Europe somewhere.

In fact, Latveria actually borders Serbia in the Marvel Universe. It would be plausible for a country like Serbia to take over a small country like Latveria (like China did Tibet) and piss off Doom in a major way.

 

[The Navigator]

I agree with you.

Plus, you just have to look at the recent strife in Serbia and Croatia to justify the possiblity of a dictator popping up in Eastern Europe somewhere.

In fact, Latveria actually borders Serbia in the Marvel Universe. It would be plausible for a country like Serbia to take over a small country like Latveria (like China did Tibet) and piss of Doom in a major way.

Which makes Marvel's boneheaded executives even less excuse handy.

Idiots.

BTW, did you ever read the short Spidey novel "Global War?" Doom is involved in that (sort of).

 

[Sardaukar]

Which makes Marvel's boneheaded executives even less excuse handy.

Idiots.

BTW, did you ever read the short Spidey novel "Global War?" Doom is involved in that (sort of).

Nope.

 

[The Navigator]

Nope.

Ah, well....

Yeah, thanks a lot, Marvel. You really screwed up this time.

 

[Sardaukar]

Ah, well....

Yeah, thanks a lot, Marvel. You really screwed up this time.

My question: Did they honestly believe they could make such drastic changes to Doom without upsetting the fans?

That's why something tells me that Avi Arad and the people at FOX have absolutely no real clue as to why Doom is so popular.

To them, he's just another simple-minded villain, lacking in much complexity.

It's like they didn't do any research or bother asking anybody who knows.

Or maybe the people at Marvel who do know are too afraid to speak up.

 

[The Navigator]

My question: Did they honestly believe they could make such drastic changes to Doom without upsetting the fans?

That's why something tells me that Avi Arad and the people at FOX have absolutely no real clue as to why Doom is so popular.

To them, he's just another simple-minded villain, lacking in much complexity.

It's like they didn't do any research or bother asking anybody who knows.

Or maybe the people at Marvel who do know are too afraid to speak up.

That's still BS on their part. It indicates they neither cared or had the enrgy to make the fans happy. And if Avi Arad doesn't like Doom so much, why is he producing this movie with all these changes? Doom's an integral part of the FF.

And I think they thought as much about this as the people at WB who produced CINO thought about that.

 

[spiderwyze]

That was intelligent and well-researched.

It does not, however, in any way, shape, or form indicate that it's acceptable to change Doom's character the way we know he is going to be changed. Either they know how to portray all the principal characters correctly or they don't. It's just that simple.

That wasn't the question you asked.

 

[The Navigator]

OK, then.

 

[Herr Logan]

That wasn't the question you asked.

I didn't ask that question. My assertion is that it's unexcusable to use a pathetic imitation of Dr. Doom instead of the real deal, which is what they are doing. If you aren't trying to defend the decisions made behind this movie, then I apologize for drawing a false connection. If you are defending the decision, I don't think I have to repeat myself and tell you what I think of you and your kind.

 

[Sardaukar]

What bothers me most is that they're exploiting Doom's name, a name who many have come to respect from years of great stories and character moments.

And they're just doing it to make profit off their little film.

But they're not paying the character, or his fans, any respect whatsoever.

It's also deceptive and a kick in the teeth for all faithful FF fans.

 

[Nero_Ordin]

they are ruining the greatest villian ever.

 

[spiderwyze]

I didn't ask that question.

*smacks forehead* Oh, right. Sorry about that. I've had a long day today.

My assertion is that it's unexcusable to use a pathetic imitation of Dr. Doom instead of the real deal, which is what they are doing. If you aren't trying to defend the decisions made behind this movie, then I apologize for drawing a false connection. If you are defending the decision, I don't think I have to repeat myself and tell you what I think of you and your kind.

Okay... what? "My kind?" At no point have I ever defended the decision to drastically alter Victor Von Doom's origin; I've actually been fairly quiet on the subject. The mini-essay I posted about about Johnny's value vs. Doom's value to the Fantastic Four certainly didn't make any mention of it. All I did was answer Sard's "defend or deny" challenge to the best of my ability, and that topic had nothing to do with Doom's portrayal in the movie ... or at least, I didn't interpret it that way.

So, you want to know how I feel about what's being done to Doom in the movie? You want to know what "my kind" is? I'd be more than willing to tell you, but be warned that it'd be a very long reply.

 

[Herr Logan]

Well, then you don't belong to "that kind." Good to know. I apologize for drawing a false connection.

 

[Ratcrawler]

Well, then you don't belong to "that kind." Good to know. I apologize for drawing a false connection.

I don't think he ever actually said he didn't...

 

[spiderwyze]

Because I still have no clue what "that kind" is.

 

[Herr Logan]

I don't think he ever actually said he didn't...

Innocent until proven guilty. If he wants to admit he's a disloyal, complacent, studio apologist, that's up to him. Until he does, this is no longer my concern.

 

[The Navigator]

Because I still have no clue what "that kind" is.

"That kind" being, I'm assuming, a corporate sell-out who is perfectly agreeable to drag good artistry through the mud to make a couple bucks.

That said, let's go see Catwoman.

 

[spiderwyze]

Innocent until proven guilty. If he wants to admit he's a disloyal, complacent, studio apologist, that's up to him. Until he does, this is no longer my concern.

Disloyal? Nope. Still a loud & proud Fantastic Four fan. (Though the question must be asked: disloyal to whom?)

Complacent? Hell naw. If anything, I get irritated when my favorite characters are allowed to stagnate creatively. This applies to Doom as well, because he's a lot more interesting to watch when he moves forward as a character than when he does the same old thing in story after story, decade after decade.

Studio apologist? That'd be a no as well. I don't even know anybody in a studio setting, so it's not like I'll be receiving any kickbacks any time soon. I find quite a bit of the decisions made by studio execs to be rather absurd, as it's easy to miss the point of a character when the primary concerns are a monetray bottom line and appeasing other people in a business setting. I understand in some cases why such decisions are made, but regardless of intentions, they're still bad decisions. And by "decisions", I mean things like making Victor Von Doom into a businessman and Catwoman into someone other than Selina Kyle.

Anything else?

 

[Kurosawa]

Those are decisions that they'll definately regret. They need to make the movie with at least an attempt to get it right instead of trying for the bottom line with every Hollywood cliché they can throw into it.