I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[Kelly]

Oh, come on, Lightnin. I think Wetgorilla was too definitive in his statements about mobs having a central leader (in riot situations, this is often not the case, for example), but you have to acknowledge that there are people that stand out on these boards as having a greater number of yes-men and yes/women offering congrats and adulations. From what I've seen in the FF forums, you and albafan seem to be elected prom king and queen. The disgusting thing is, a huge number of albafan's fans speak up with statements mainly about how "positive" she is. The same kind of thing happens with you, except not to the same degree, and you've offered more actual arguments pertaining to the subjects of controversy than "everyone's got their own opinion and disagreements between posters makes me so freakin' happy and educated" posts. I'm sure you feel differently, but it seems a bit shallow to laud someone for being simply cheerful and optimistic, and to do this constantly.

I have my own reasons for respecting both albafan and you, and I make sure to get the point across when I can. But you're not going to hear me shouting out praises for being positive and enthusiastic over a movie made my people that don't give a rat's ass about you, me or anyone but their own social and business circles.
I've insured that I will never become one of these beloved mob leaders that maintains a following of yes-men. Though there have been many people who backed me up just because I was willing to speak out against the majority and because I pack a punch in my posts, most posters who continue to support me here do so based on the actual substance of my posts, and not just a general emotional tone I tend to maintain. Considering this is the internet and most of us have never met each other, you'll have to take this statement as less than literal: When you're an a$$hole, you know who your friends really are.

The majority of the aforementioned so-called "sheep" on these boards (I'm quoting here, so don't go callin' C. Lee on my ass, dammit) are not following Stan Lee and Jack Kirby as their shepherds. The primary shepherds are producers and directors, and in the comic book forums, mainly current writers. It's extremely easy to pay lip service to Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby and any other legendary creator, and even to make it sound convincing. It's quite another to actually value the source material more than products shaped by current trends in entertainment. I consider myself someone who values those creators' work as some of the highest quality fiction, and for whatever reason, I've got an imagination similar enough to those creators' so that I can visualize those stories and characters (edited for time, of course) on the silver screen without a lot of alterations. That's not to say that I'm as creative as Stan and the rest, but having imagination is about either creating and clearly perceiving images from either an external source or one's own mind, or both. It's a bless and a curse, but it should never be criticized in and of itself just because the majority of humans on this planet have not been raised and conditioned to value it. Stan Lee, for example, is far more intelligent than most human beings and has (or had) an amazing gift for applying that intelligence in a constructive manner. That doesn't make him someone only a "fanboy" could respect. That makes him a remarkable figure in literary and entertainment history.

Thank you for being honest H.L., I'll try and not use any "..." here so there is no misunderstanding of my meaning. Your post said more than 100 posts, and I appreciate your honesty in it.

 

[Head>On<Collider]

Let's discuss Doom. Shall we?

What for? It'd be the same old BS anyway.......

 

[Head>On<Collider]

Hey look here everyone.... Finland only has 2 Dr Doom fans! :

http://www.fanlistings.org/dr_doom/members.php

 

[Gratticus]

Oh, come on, Lightnin. I think Wetgorilla was too definitive in his statements about mobs having a central leader (in riot situations, this is often not the case, for example), but you have to acknowledge that there are people that stand out on these boards as having a greater number of yes-men and yes/women offering congrats and adulations. From what I've seen in the FF forums, you and albafan seem to be elected prom king and queen. The disgusting thing is, a huge number of albafan's fans speak up with statements mainly about how "positive" she is. The same kind of thing happens with you, except not to the same degree, and you've offered more actual arguments pertaining to the subjects of controversy than "everyone's got their own opinion and disagreements between posters makes me so freakin' happy and educated" posts. I'm sure you feel differently, but it seems a bit shallow to laud someone for being simply cheerful and optimistic, and to do this constantly.

I have my own reasons for respecting both albafan and you, and I make sure to get the point across when I can. But you're not going to hear me shouting out praises for being positive and enthusiastic over a movie made my people that don't give a rat's ass about you, me or anyone but their own social and business circles.
I've insured that I will never become one of these beloved mob leaders that maintains a following of yes-men. Though there have been many people who backed me up just because I was willing to speak out against the majority and because I pack a punch in my posts, most posters who continue to support me here do so based on the actual substance of my posts, and not just a general emotional tone I tend to maintain. Considering this is the internet and most of us have never met each other, you'll have to take this statement as less than literal: When you're an a$$hole, you know who your friends really are.

The majority of the aforementioned so-called "sheep" on these boards (I'm quoting here, so don't go callin' C. Lee on my ass, dammit) are not following Stan Lee and Jack Kirby as their shepherds. The primary shepherds are producers and directors, and in the comic book forums, mainly current writers. It's extremely easy to pay lip service to Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby and any other legendary creator, and even to make it sound convincing. It's quite another to actually value the source material more than products shaped by current trends in entertainment. I consider myself someone who values those creators' work as some of the highest quality fiction, and for whatever reason, I've got an imagination similar enough to those creators' so that I can visualize those stories and characters (edited for time, of course) on the silver screen without a lot of alterations. That's not to say that I'm as creative as Stan and the rest, but having imagination is about either creating and clearly perceiving images from either an external source or one's own mind, or both. It's a bless and a curse, but it should never be criticized in and of itself just because the majority of humans on this planet have not been raised and conditioned to value it. Stan Lee, for example, is far more intelligent than most human beings and has (or had) an amazing gift for applying that intelligence in a constructive manner. That doesn't make him someone only a "fanboy" could respect. That makes him a remarkable figure in literary and entertainment history.

I'll be your yes-man anyday, hun.

 

[Ulic Queldroma]

What for? It'd be the same old BS anyway.......

Great point, orange9! <claps hands in approval.> All we need to know is that there are some who hate movie Doom, some who like him and some who are in the middle about the whole thing. And all we hear is the same arguments over and over. The point is moot. The movie is almost finished, headed to the editing room and will be released in three months. Nothing said here will change anything that has already been filmed. Nothing.

 

[Ulic Queldroma]

Hey look here everyone.... Finland only has 2 Dr Doom fans! :

http://www.fanlistings.org/dr_doom/members.php

2 in a row! You're on a roll! LOL! Great diversion!

 

[Head>On<Collider]

Great point, orange9! <claps hands in approval.> All we need to know is that there are some who hate movie Doom, some who like him and some who are in the middle about the whole thing. And all we hear is the same arguments over and over. The point is moot. The movie is almost finished, headed to the editing room and will be released in three months. Nothing said here will change anything that has already been filmed. Nothing.

Even though your response was true, I was kind of being sarcastic.
Doom is worth discussing whether it's movie Doom, Classic Doom, Ultimate Doom, Alternate reality Doom, etc. He displays characteristics of the human psyche if not more than, then as much as any protagonist character within Marvel's or even DC's universe. He's an icon, hence the passion displayed all over these boards over his film portrayal.

 

[Saph]

I posted this in the Doom, did they get it right? thread and now I post it here:

Doom is symbolically similar to Movie!Doom. Here's why:

-A major corporation can be described metaphorically as a kingdom and empire. There are many levels of importance. The CEO: The King. Board Members:A Parliament, if you will. Supervisorsukes, Lords.. Workers: Peasants. As for the empire, you have several offices stationed around the world. So Movie!Doom, in a manner of speaking, DOES have a kingdom.

-So what if he doesn't wear his armour? It is not unlike Doom to embrace power (I believe in Secret War he stole the Beyonder's power, in fact even in the Lee/Kirby days he stole Silver Surfer's board and power cosmic). A line he says in the trailer: ''I always wanted power..'' shows that chances are if he didn't get powers from those cosmic rays, he would've probably built a means of having power eventually anyway. ( A suit of armour for example.) And, more symbolism.. Doom still gets the scars which he could blame Richards for, after all, wasn't Richards in the cosmic ray accident with him? He still hides the small scar behind a mask. What's that you say? They are still lacking the part where his arrogance scars him even further? Well, if my theory is correct, he mutates himself further with the Transformation Chamber, covering his face with organic metal. Similar to the small scar- grotesquely scarred face of John Byrne's origin? I think so. So, in a metaphorical way, Doom does build his own armour.

-You say Doom lacks his gypsy background. We have no proof he does not have that background.. they haven't mentioned anything about it. That could still be there.

-The Love Triangle is not a love triangle at all. Doom never loved Sue. Is it even proven that this is actually a relationship, anyway? None of the promos even hint at any love story, besides the one between Sue and Reed, which is no travesty. Sue is merely going out with Doom. Doom has no intention to marry Sue.. even if he did it would've been because he needed a good housewife and trophy to show to his rival Richards. Doom loses all respect for Sue anyway, as we see him in the trailer throw a bigass lightning bolt at her.
That 'let's not fight' line in the trailer doesn't show any consideration for Sue to me.. it sounded more like he was trying to catch her off guard in my opinion.

-Doom's sense of superiority over everyone else. He has a statue of himself outside his building, holding atoms in his hands. He may as well have a billboard saying; ''I am your superior, only I can control science, I hold science in the palm of my hand!'' It also has a sense of monarchy to it, which adds to my first point. He even starts a false relationship with the most beautiful girl working for him just to prove he can.

-Doom is a threat. He owns the FF single-handedly, goes toe to toe with Ben, starts to burn Reed alive and joke about it. (''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'')

-Doom's latverian roots aren't gone. His mask is from Latveria.. there may be more significance to that mask other than just armour. Methinks it's a gift from his dad, just before he died, and that it's a reminder that he will one day take over Latveria, using that very mask as an image to instill fear.

Of course, this is only if they decide to do Doom this way. It's all about how you look at things.

I can tell you this, though: I will not be dissapointed on July 8th. Considering the movie comes out July 22nd for me..

 

[Head>On<Collider]

I posted this in the Doom, did they get it right? thread and now I post it here:

Doom is symbolically similar to Movie!Doom. Here's why:

-A major corporation can be described metaphorically as a kingdom and empire. There are many levels of importance. The CEO: The King. Board Members:A Parliament, if you will. Supervisorsukes, Lords.. Workers: Peasants. As for the empire, you have several offices stationed around the world. So Movie!Doom, in a manner of speaking, DOES have a kingdom.

-So what if he doesn't wear his armour? It is not unlike Doom to embrace power (I believe in Secret War he stole the Beyonder's power, in fact even in the Lee/Kirby days he stole Silver Surfer's board and power cosmic). A line he says in the trailer: ''I always wanted power..'' shows that chances are if he didn't get powers from those cosmic rays, he would've probably built a means of having power eventually anyway. ( A suit of armour for example.) And, more symbolism.. Doom still gets the scars which he could blame Richards for, after all, wasn't Richards in the cosmic ray accident with him? He still hides the small scar behind a mask. What's that you say? They are still lacking the part where his arrogance scars him even further? Well, if my theory is correct, he mutates himself further with the Transformation Chamber, covering his face with organic metal. Similar to the small scar- grotesquely scarred face of John Byrne's origin? I think so. So, in a metaphorical way, Doom does build his own armour.

-You say Doom lacks his gypsy background. We have no proof he does not have that background.. they haven't mentioned anything about it. That could still be there.

-The Love Triangle is not a love triangle at all. Doom never loved Sue. Is it even proven that this is actually a relationship, anyway? None of the promos even hint at any love story, besides the one between Sue and Reed, which is no travesty. Sue is merely going out with Doom. Doom has no intention to marry Sue.. even if he did it would've been because he needed a good housewife and trophy to show to his rival Richards. Doom loses all respect for Sue anyway, as we see him in the trailer throw a bigass lightning bolt at her.
That 'let's not fight' line in the trailer doesn't show any consideration for Sue to me.. it sounded more like he was trying to catch her off guard in my opinion.

-Doom's sense of superiority over everyone else. He has a statue of himself outside his building, holding atoms in his hands. He may as well have a billboard saying; ''I am your superior, only I can control science, I hold science in the palm of my hand!'' It also has a sense of monarchy to it, which adds to my first point. He even starts a false relationship with the most beautiful girl working for him just to prove he can.

-Doom is a threat. He owns the FF single-handedly, goes toe to toe with Ben, starts to burn Reed alive and joke about it. (''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'')

-Doom's latverian roots aren't gone. His mask is from Latveria.. there may be more significance to that mask other than just armour. Methinks it's a gift from his dad, just before he died, and that it's a reminder that he will one day take over Latveria, using that very mask as an image to instill fear.

Of course, this is only if they decide to do Doom this way. It's all about how you look at things.

I can tell you this, though: I will not be dissapointed on July 8th. Considering the movie comes out July 22nd for me..

Believe it or not, I was just about to comment and reedify how good of a post this was, Saph. I may not agree with it, but it's a good arguement anyway

 

[Mister Sinister]

Found this on Wrestlecrap, the wrestling equivalent of Dr. Doom!

http://www.wrestlecrap.com/wwow.html

 

[Head>On<Collider]

Found this on Wrestlecrap, the wrestling equivalent of Dr. Doom!

http://www.wrestlecrap.com/wwow.html

It looks like the member from Slipknot.

 

[Herr Logan]

That's quite a post there Herr.

Even though I disagree with some segments of it, there is much I understand from it as well. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I hardly consider myself the "leader" here. And, not to be coy, I doubt anyone else seriously views me in that light either.

Now, what I do try to do is make threads that make people think outside the box--and I believe that quality and quantity adds to a forum. I look at the examples of folks like Captain Stacy, Iron Maiden, Willie Lumpkin, Vartha etc., and see how they use their FF knowledge to educate and enlighten casual fans on the greatness that is Fantastic Four. I simply try to use my voice and knowledge in a similar vein.

But let's not get it twisted: while I may try to spark conversation, that definitely doesn't qualify me as "the leader". We have many talented and respected folks in this forum, and I am simply supporting them with what I know from collecting these books. And to be frank, I've PMed many a poster about labeling me as a "leader" anyway. This is a comic book discussion forum, so it's hardly that deep for me. Granted, I do wear a badge in everyday life, but not one for SHH.

I come here to discuss Fantastic Four--not to win a popularity contest. It's easy for those who are new here to assign alterior motives to some of us mainstays but...truth be told...High School ended for me....a long time ago.

I'm almost certain that you're mistaken, and it's my fault for being unclear.

I didn't mean to say that you were trying to win a popularity contest. I was commenting on the behavior of FF forum regulars on the whole, and how a large portion of them tend to flock around a strong personality and sometimes let them do the thinking for them.

I guess the one thing I mean to say but completely left out was that you qualify as a "leader" because you naturally come across that way on here. The fact that you're smarter than most posters on the entire site and actually spark intelligent discussions makes you a leader for both people too shallow to think for themselves as well as people who are intelligent but are introduced to new ideas and ways of thinking by you.

The point is, whether or not you wanted the crown or the attention, you still got written in on the prom ballets. You get me?

 

[Herr Logan]

I'll be your yes-man anyday, hun.

Hun? First I'm an "unofficial despot," now I'm a hun??

Or does that mean you qualify for "groupie" status? Yes-men are cheap, but groupies and yes-women are cheap and useful.

 

[Herr Logan]

Believe it or not, I was just about to comment and reedify how good of a post this was, Saph. I may not agree with it, but it's a good arguement anyway

His talent is frightening. The Force is strong in this one. That's why one of us better kill him before he gets further involved with the Dark Side.

 

[wetgorilla]

Even though your response was true, I was kind of being sarcastic.
Doom is worth discussing whether it's movie Doom, Classic Doom, Ultimate Doom, Alternate reality Doom, etc. He displays characteristics of the human psyche if not more than, then as much as any protagonist character within Marvel's or even DC's universe. He's an icon, hence the passion displayed all over these boards over his film portrayal.

Hell, Doom has such a popularity among fans that he was given his own mag alongside of Ka-Zar back in the 70's.

Wetgorilla

 

[Saph]

I'm almost certain that you're mistaken, and it's my fault for being unclear.

I didn't mean to say that you were trying to win a popularity contest. I was commenting on the behavior of FF forum regulars on the whole, and how a large portion of them tend to flock around a strong personality and sometimes let them do the thinking for them.

I guess the one thing I mean to say but completely left out was that you qualify as a "leader" because you naturally come across that way on here. The fact that you're smarter than most posters on the entire site and actually spark intelligent discussions makes you a leader for both people too shallow to think for themselves as well as people who are intelligent but are introduced to new ideas and ways of thinking by you.

The point is, whether or not you wanted the crown or the attention, you still got written in on the prom ballets. You get me?

Let's just say Lightnin has a sense of leadership, and although he isn't an 'official' leader, people follow him for advice.

 

[wetgorilla]

-A major corporation can be described metaphorically as a kingdom and empire. There are many levels of importance. The CEO: The King. Board Members:A Parliament, if you will. Supervisorsukes, Lords.. Workers: Peasants. As for the empire, you have several offices stationed around the world. So Movie!Doom, in a manner of speaking, DOES have a kingdom.

-Doom is a threat. He owns the FF single-handedly, goes toe to toe with Ben, starts to burn Reed alive and joke about it. (''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'')

This version of Doom has more problems with him than the Mole Man has minions. Now, I'm going to address two points on Saph's list and although this is not a flaw with Saph or his argument, it is a flaw with Tim Story's Doom (no mere fan can be responsible for Story's mess).



- Hollywood has a bad habit such when they need to round up an egomaniac, arrogant mastermind to go up against their hero, he's cast as a corporate business man. - Corporate business men aren't all that intelligent or complete in their plans. Industrialists and corporate leaders aren't imposing on such a level. So, casting an industrialist to play Doom is going down a notch. Also, Doom has never been about the almighty dollar, or has shared any traits with an industrialist. The idea a corporation is a model for a kingdom is over simplifying the issue. The goals of a corporation is money - Doom cares nothing for green-back!



- ''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'' Is this suppose to be dialog coming from Victor Von Doom?? Doom doesn't ask questions, he supposes he knows the answers already and aiming witless remarks are beneath him. Open a mag from the eighties, seventies or sixties and you'll see Doom make general comments more than anything else. This piece of dialog doesn't sound like Doom or anything someone of Doom's level would say. It does, however, sound like a script writer who is providing cookie-cutter dialog.

Wetgorilla

 

[GoblinScrier]

Well, after all we have learned from different sources...we are definitely not getting a TRUE Dr. Doom but a Dr. Doom that has a lot of the same qualities with some major differences. I am still looking forward to Julian's portrayal (I still think he is one of the best relatively unknown choices they could have went with).

I wish that "super rubber" line was wiped out and maybe it will be. It is just that Doom speaks with such elegance and such contempt. Lines like "Are you mad, Richards, Doom needs no help from you or any man ?"

I really hope he talks like that in the movie at least once or twice. He has to yell "Richards !!!!"

However, the one thing I am still a bit luke warm is the "supposed" ending:




***SPOILERS BELOW***










The idea of Doom being super heated then super cooled (because of his organic armor, this wouldn't have happened if he had his normal armor but that is besides the point), then crated off to Latveria is not the best solution. Why couldn't some of his minions come along and un-statue him (I know that is not a word and then he invades Latveria at the end and takes over which leads into part 2.

 

[theunknowngoat]

I was just thinking Reed and Doom went to College together right? I doubt then Vic had intentions of becoming ruler of Latveria(I may be wrong I love comics just history has never been my strong point) If I remember correctly he was driven mad after an accident with Reed at which point everything kind of bubbled over with the technology, black magic, mother , father, and then hes ruler of Latveria(not neccessarily in that order.
So what not to say this movie set him up with this amasing power, He goes back to Latveria(If he surrvives) and becomes their Leader(Ruler/Dictator). I say that is a very likely set up for a sequal in my mind, the F4 have to battle with the leader of an entire country with all of its resourses at his command to build an unstoppable army of Robots, or perhaps hes Ruling the country through some sort of figure head like person and he makes a surprise attack at the F4 appreciation dinner with Doom bots and lighnitng flying everywhere.. who knows, just give it time. Remeber all the gripe about Spider-mans Organic webshooters, no one is complaining now.

 

[Onlooker]

''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'' Is this suppose to be dialog coming from Victor Von Doom?? Doom doesn't ask questions, he supposes he knows the answers already and aiming witless remarks are beneath him.

Hello. I've been reading your posts for some time but have refrained from joining because, which I'm a great fan of Julian McMahon, I'm not really very knowledgeable about comics so didn't think I had much to contribute. However, I simply couldn't resist responding to the above comment, which I've seen raised in various forms several times before.

The line "Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?" is pure sarcasm. Its a rhetorical question. He's not asking for or expacting a reply, its simply a form of quiet, ironic menace. I don't know more about Dr. Doom than I've read here, but that line seems to me to be the epitome of the character you've been describing.

 

[theunknowngoat]

Yes it is rhetorical, I also believe it was Super cool, I clearly remember seeing Ioan frozen to a chair (for one of the setdec/costumes continuity pictures) There was some holding his cell phone to his head as he couldn't move his arms, perhaps its both..... I'm not sure now....

 

[wetgorilla]

Hello. I've been reading your posts for some time but have refrained from joining because, which I'm a great fan of Julian McMahon, I'm not really very knowledgeable about comics so didn't think I had much to contribute. However, I simply couldn't resist responding to the above comment, which I've seen raised in various forms several times before.

The line "Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?" is pure sarcasm. Its a rhetorical question. He's not asking for or expacting a reply, its simply a form of quiet, ironic menace. I don't know more about Dr. Doom than I've read here, but that line seems to me to be the epitome of the character you've been describing.

I was wondering when someone would come running out waving that particular rebut to my point. My response is simple enough. I am completely aware it is a rhetorical question and felt everyone else was as well. I refered to it as a question, because rhetorical or not - it still falls under the term "question". Doom doesn't particularly ask rhetorical questions while in battle (he may ask one directed to himself to facilitate his own pondering when he is alone). So, this issue isn't a matter of misunderstanding the context of a question or statement, but rather the language being used by a particular type of character.

Wetgorilla

 

[wetgorilla]

***SPOILERS BELOW***

The idea of Doom being super heated then super cooled (because of his organic armor, this wouldn't have happened if he had his normal armor but that is besides the point), then crated off to Latveria is not the best solution. Why couldn't some of his minions come along and un-statue him (I know that is not a word and then he invades Latveria at the end and takes over which leads into part 2.

I was hoping this would one day get out onto this forum. It's a major aspect of this film that will have audiences wanting to sneak into another movie afterwards in an attempt to get their "moneys-worth" for the day.

How unoriginal could Story and his boys be? Think about how many antogonists have been defeated in similar fashions. This type of altering leans more in the direction of not trusting the source material rather than paying homage to it. Come on, people.

Wetgorilla

 

[Saph]

This version of Doom has more problems with him than the Mole Man has minions. Now, I'm going to address two points on Saph's list and although this is not a flaw with Saph or his argument, it is a flaw with Tim Story's Doom (no mere fan can be responsible for Story's mess).



- Hollywood has a bad habit such when they need to round up an egomaniac, arrogant mastermind to go up against their hero, he's cast as a corporate business man. - Corporate business men aren't all that intelligent or complete in their plans. Industrialists and corporate leaders aren't imposing on such a level. So, casting an industrialist to play Doom is going down a notch. Also, Doom has never been about the almighty dollar, or has shared any traits with an industrialist. The idea a corporation is a model for a kingdom is over simplifying the issue. The goals of a corporation is money - Doom cares nothing for green-back!

I have addressed this very point in the Doom: did they get it right? thread. I'm sure Doom in real life would become a businessman in America; money is the main source of power in America. Doom would be merely taking advantage of their 'foolish' ways of obtaining power. It is childs play for Doom to obtain enough money to do anything he wants. Doom uses money, it doesn't mean he has to like it.

- ''Tell me, what happens if you super-heat Rubber?'' Is this suppose to be dialog coming from Victor Von Doom?? Doom doesn't ask questions, he supposes he knows the answers already and aiming witless remarks are beneath him. Open a mag from the eighties, seventies or sixties and you'll see Doom make general comments more than anything else. This piece of dialog doesn't sound like Doom or anything someone of Doom's level would say. It does, however, sound like a script writer who is providing cookie-cutter dialog.

Wetgorilla

What you are forgetting, Wetgorilla, is that Doom is saying that while burning a man alive.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

The point is, whether or not you wanted the crown or the attention, you still got written in on the prom ballets. You get me?

If it was, it wasn't with my permission, and I will not be drafted. While I appreciate compliments (who doesn't?)from others when I launch new threads for discussion, it is vital that we differentiate 'being accepted in a community' from 'leadership of a community'. These are two very distinct categories, and as far as I'm concerned, I've always aimed to fall squarely into only one of them (and it's not the latter). That's always been my attitude and those I am close to on the PM level can attest to that.

Like I said...I like to keep the ball of discussion rolling...that's what I do. And that's all I've ever done. Give the Leadership Badge to C. Lee--he's the one that can end our SHH lives with the press of a button.