The Amazing Spider-Man I don't know what troubles me more...

[The Joker]

let's be honest here, dent's descent into madness is pretty freaking stupid unless you believe that one of the city's most law abiding citizens can go off the deep end if they become scarred and lose a loved one. nonsensical.

Take off the rose tinted glasses. People in real life have gone off the deep end for far less than a horrible facial dis-figuration, having a loved one murdered, and feeling totally betrayed by the people you trusted the most.

He acted out of revenge. It was completely believable. We already saw foreboding signs of his erratic behavior when he abducted and terrorized that Joker accomplice in the ambulance when he realized his beloved Rachel was to be the Joker's next target.

 

[spider-neil]

Take off the rose tinted glasses. People in real life have gone off the deep end for far less than a horrible facial dis-figuration, having a loved one murdered, and feeling totally betrayed by the people you trusted the most.

He acted out of revenge. It was completely believable. We already saw foreboding signs of his erratic behavior when he abducted and terrorized that Joker accomplice in the ambulance when he realized his beloved Rachel was to be the Joker's next target.

sorry, I'll go into more detail about going 'off the end' I mean using a coin to decide fate when there was nothing whatsoever to suggest that dent had a scarred psyche/split personality/mental illness. it made no sense whatsoever. the two-face in the animated series origin made much more sense but the duel personality was already there and tragedy brought the second personality to the surface. it wasn't simple revenge he took on a whole new persona.

if there were a script rewrite nolan should look to expend the scene where dent (not two-face) is tossing a coin to get information out of the joker accomplis.

 

[chaseter]

let's be honest here, dent's descent into madness is pretty freaking stupid unless you believe that one of the city's most law abiding citizens can go off the deep end if they become scarred and lose a loved one. nonsensical.

People can just snap.

 

[The Joker]

sorry, I'll go into more detail about going 'off the end' I mean using a coin to decide fate when there was nothing whatsoever to suggest that dent had a scarred psyche/split personality/mental illness. it made no sense whatsoever. the two-face in the animated series origin made much more sense but the duel personality was already there and tragedy brought the second personality to the surface. it wasn't simple revenge he took on a whole new persona.

I think you missed the point of the coin tossing in TDK, dude. He felt it was the only fair way to decide someone's fate because he was giving them the same chance Rachel had.

Dent: "The world is cruel. The only morality in a cruel world is chance. Unbiased, unprejudiced, fair. His son's got the same chance she had. 50/50"

 

[Eddie Brock]

Yeah. Dent may have lost it, but he didn't totally lose sight of his morals. He couldn't outright kill someone, so by claiming "fate" is the one who decides, he separates himself from any personal responsibility.

 

[spider-neil]

I think you missed the point of the coin tossing in TDK, dude. He felt it was the only fair way to decide someone's fate because he was giving them the same chance Rachel had.

Dent: "The world is cruel. The only morality in a cruel world is chance. Unbiased, unprejudiced, fair. His son's got the same chance she had. 50/50"

yes but where did that come from?

batman - afraid of bats decides to turn his fear on the criminals

ra's al ghul - wants to cleanse the world of curruption

joker - no real motivation other than to cause choas, okay, gets a pass I guess

two-face - went from being one of (if not 'THE') purest citizens in gothom to a coin tossing psycho. people can give me explainations I guess but the whole while I was watching that transformation I was thinking 'where the hell did 'THAT' come from?

 

[The Joker]

Yeah. Dent may have lost it, but he didn't totally lose sight of his morals. He couldn't outright kill someone, so by claiming "fate" is the one who decides, he separates himself from any personal responsibility.

Exactly.

yes but where did that come from?

It came from Rachel's death. Just like he said. 50/50 chance of survival. He was already talking about 'Making his own luck' with the coin because it was a double headed coin. But when the coin got scarred in the very explosion Rachel died in, it symbolized how her death had swung on real chance.

So he gave those whom he felt were responsible for her death the same chance.

 

[PreK]

yes but where did that come from?

...what the hell? Please rewatch the film, specifically all the scenes with him at the hospital, and the climax with Bats and Gordon. Practically everything is explained in dialog form. It puzzles me how something so significant and blatantly expressed could be missed -- worse, critiqued because of it going over your head.

 

[Dragon]

Take off the rose tinted glasses. People in real life have gone off the deep end for far less than a horrible facial dis-figuration, having a loved one murdered, and feeling totally betrayed by the people you trusted the most.

He acted out of revenge. It was completely believable. We already saw foreboding signs of his erratic behavior when he abducted and terrorized that Joker accomplice in the ambulance when he realized his beloved Rachel was to be the Joker's next target.

But the direction Dent wnet in was unbelievale. No way he wouldn't have killed the Joker. The Joker was directly responsible for Rachel's death. He placed her in jeopardy. Very unlikely tha he would have gone after Gordon. And Dent's using the coin seemed just tacked on in TDK, not like a reasonable part of his pathology.

There was so many plot problems in TDK. It was a well-performed film. The dialogue and staging was all good. But the story was really problematic.

 

[spider-neil]

Exactly.



It came from Rachel's death. Just like he said. 50/50 chance of survival. He was already talking about 'Making his own luck' with the coin because it was a double headed coin. But when the coin got scarred in the very explosion Rachel died in, it symbolized how her death had swung on real chance.

So he gave those whom he felt were responsible for her death the same chance.

hmmm I guess that kind of works but I would have preferred this expanded upon i.e. the origin of two-face in TDK and the actual two-face in TDKR.

another thing I didn't like, all the stuff I've read of two-face almost suggests he has no personality he is a slave to the coin toss.
in the car with the mob boss he tosses a coin whether the mob boss lives or dies and when two face 'loses' he tosses a coin for the driver.

this doesn't work for me, two-face tossed a coin to decide the fate of the mob boss the coin decided the mob boss LIVES, he should have got out the car and went about his business other wise he may as well toss the coin until it gives him the 'decision' he wants.

 

[Eddie Brock]

But the direction Dent wnet in was unbelievale. No way he wouldn't have killed the Joker. The Joker was directly responsible for Rachel's death. He placed her in jeopardy. Very unlikely tha he would have gone after Gordon. And Dent's using the coin seemed just tacked on in TDK, not like a reasonable part of his pathology.

There was so many plot problems in TDK. It was a well-performed film. The dialogue and staging was all good. But the story was really problematic.

You think it's that easy to kill someone? You think that Harvey Dent, who spent the better part of his adult life as an upstanding citizen, could stare the Joker in the eye and just pull the trigger? No. His conscience wouldn't allow it. Harvey Dent can't become a murderer. But what if it's not up to Harvey Dent? A coin flip, a random chance. Harvey Dent didn't choose to let the Joker live or die: fate did.

 

[spider-neil]

But the direction Dent wnet in was unbelievale. No way he wouldn't have killed the Joker. The Joker was directly responsible for Rachel's death. He placed her in jeopardy. Very unlikely tha he would have gone after Gordon. And Dent's using the coin seemed just tacked on in TDK, not like a reasonable part of his pathology.

100% how I felt when I watched that scene.

 

[The Joker]

But the direction Dent wnet in was unbelievale. No way he wouldn't have killed the Joker. The Joker was directly responsible for Rachel's death.

With the help of people that Dent trusted. Namely Gordon's men. The Joker had his chance at death, and the coin let him off the hook, just like it did with the other bent Cop, Ramirez, who both he and Rachel liked and trusted, and whom actually delivered Rachel to Joker's men.

He placed her in jeopardy. Very unlikely tha he would have gone after Gordon.

He had warned Gordon of the corrupt Cops in his unit, but he didn't act on it.

Gordon: "I know you tried to warn me. I'm sorry"

And Dent's using the coin seemed just tacked on in TDK, not like a reasonable part of his pathology.

Disagree. Especially when it got scarred in the very explosion that killed Rachel. Great way for it to end up getting scarred instead of him doing it himself. Added a more personal resonance to it.

 

[The Joker]

hmmm I guess that kind of works but I would have preferred this expanded upon i.e. the origin of two-face in TDK and the actual two-face in TDKR.

So would I. Mainly because I just want more of Eckhart's great performance. But what we got with Two Face in TDK was quite satisfactory as far as understanding him went.

another thing I didn't like, all the stuff I've read of two-face almost suggests he has no personality he is a slave to the coin toss.
in the car with the mob boss he tosses a coin whether the mob boss lives or dies and when two face 'loses' he tosses a coin for the driver.

this doesn't work for me, two-face tossed a coin to decide the fate of the mob boss the coin decided the mob boss LIVES, he should have got out the car and went about his business other wise he may as well toss the coin until it gives him the 'decision' he wants.

He didn't cheat the decision of the coin. He tossed the coin to decide if he would or would not shoot Maroni. Did he shoot Maroni? No.

 

[chaseter]

But then again he did kill the driver who had nothing to do with anything...I just realized that.

 

[Eddie Brock]

But then again he did kill the driver who had nothing to do with anything...I just realized that.

You think Maroni's driver was completely innocent? If anything, he was probably one of his goons.

 

[chaseter]

Why didn't he get a coin toss? He was just killed.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, I wouldn't call any employee of Maroni's 'completely innocent' lol.

Why didn't he get a coin toss? He was just killed.

He did get a coin toss. Watch the scene again.

Dent: "You're a lucky man"
*Tosses coin*
Dent: "But he's not"
Maroni: "Who?"
Dent: "Your driver"

 

[Eddie Brock]

Why didn't he get a coin toss? He was just killed.

He did get a coin toss.

 

[ModestMr.Green]

But then again he did kill the driver who had nothing to do with anything...I just realized that.

[YT]n6lzEhoXads[/YT]

 

[Chris Wallace]

Take off the rose tinted glasses. People in real life have gone off the deep end for far less than a horrible facial dis-figuration, having a loved one murdered, and feeling totally betrayed by the people you trusted the most.

He acted out of revenge. It was completely believable. We already saw foreboding signs of his erratic behavior when he abducted and terrorized that Joker accomplice in the ambulance when he realized his beloved Rachel was to be the Joker's next target.

I'm trying to remember the title of a Two-Face one-shot that came out in '95, written by DeMatteis, in which he said that not everyone who got horribly scarred would necessarily turn into him.

 

[The Joker]

I'm trying to remember the title of a Two-Face one-shot that came out in '95, written by DeMatteis, in which he said that not everyone who got horribly scarred would necessarily turn into him.

Good thing it wasn't just the scarring that caused him to turn out like that then.

Then it can't be all as psychologically deep as green gas that turns you schizo, or A.I. arms that warp your mind

 

[Dragon]

With the help of people that Dent trusted. Namely Gordon's men. The Joker had his chance at death, and the coin let him off the hook, just like it did with the other bent Cop, Ramirez, who both he and Rachel liked and trusted, and whom actually delivered Rachel to Joker's men.

Which is again why I say the coin thing was BS. If fate is about a toss of the coin, then it's unrealistic that Dent would blame anyone for Rachel's death. Her death is also a toss pf the coin then (Underlined by the coin being with her when she died). But if he does believe that someone is responsbile and that person should die then he can't allow it to rest on the flip of a coin. It doesn't track, and simply comes off as contrivance to ensure that the story goes a certain way.

He had warned Gordon of the corrupt Cops in his unit, but he didn't act on it.

Gordon: "I know you tried to warn me. I'm sorry"

Exactly and he went above and beyond the toss of a coin in pursuing Gordon, even including Gordon's family in the equation when they had nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter what Gordon's men did. The Joker actually killed Rachel. Just as after Maroni escaped due to the coin toss, but then Dent throws in the second chance of killing the driver, he would have created a second chance to kill the Joker. But he just lets the Joker skate.

Disagree. Especially when it got scarred in the very explosion that killed Rachel. Great way for it to end up getting scarred instead of him doing it himself. Added a more personal resonance to it.

The problem here is that They didn't do what the carotoon did successfully- which is establish that Harvey was unblalnced prior to his scarring. The character wasn't explored thoroughly enough to make it realistic that he would do what he did. His story required alot more screentime than he was allowed.

 

[The Joker]

Which is again why I say the coin thing was BS. If fate is about a toss of the coin, then it's unrealistic that Dent would blame anyone for Rachel's death. Her death is also a toss pf the coin then (Underlined by the coin being with her when she died). But if he does believe that someone is responsbile and that person should die then he can't allow it to rest on the flip of a coin. It doesn't track, and simply comes off as contrivance to ensure that the story goes a certain way.

I don't think you get it, dude. When he said "They have the same chance she had: 50/50", he means they have the same chance of escaping death as she had. Fate will decide it, just like it decided it for Rachel when she was faced with death.

Exactly and he went above and beyond the toss of a coin in pursuing Gordon, even including Gordon's family in the equation when they had nothing to do with it.

Again you missed the point entirely. He was punishing Gordon by making him suffer the same loss he did: losing the person he loves the most.

"Have you ever had to talk to the person you love the most, and tell them it's going to be alright even when it's not? Well you're about to know what that feels like, Gordon. Then you can look me in the eye and tell me you're sorry"

"His son's got the same chance she had: 50/50"

Plain as day.

It doesn't matter what Gordon's men did.

Of course it does. They exploited their positions of power and trust, and used it against Harvey and Rachel.

They are accessories to the crime.

The Joker actually killed Rachel. Just as after Maroni escaped due to the coin toss, but then Dent throws in the second chance of killing the driver, he would have created a second chance to kill the Joker. But he just lets the Joker skate.

How could he have created a second chance to kill the Joker?

The problem here is that They didn't do what the carotoon did successfully- which is establish that Harvey was unblalnced prior to his scarring. The character wasn't explored thoroughly enough to make it realistic that he would do what he did. His story required alot more screentime than he was allowed.

I'm sorry, but I think you're totally wrong. If he was willing to abduct and terrorize a suspect in an ambulance simply because his precious Rachel was threatened, then it is absolutely no stretch to the imagination that being horribly disfigured, her being murdered, and it all happening because he was betrayed by people he trusted would push him over the edge the way it did.

Guilt, grief, and anger make the sanest people do the most shocking things.

 

[The Joker]

Which is again why I say the coin thing was BS. If fate is about a toss of the coin, then it's unrealistic that Dent would blame anyone for Rachel's death. Her death is also a toss pf the coin then (Underlined by the coin being with her when she died). But if he does believe that someone is responsbile and that person should die then he can't allow it to rest on the flip of a coin. It doesn't track, and simply comes off as contrivance to ensure that the story goes a certain way.

I don't think you get it, dude. When he said "They have the same chance she had: 50/50", he means they have the same chance of escaping death as she had. Fate will decide it, just like it decided it for Rachel when she was faced with death.

Exactly and he went above and beyond the toss of a coin in pursuing Gordon, even including Gordon's family in the equation when they had nothing to do with it.

Again you missed the point entirely. He was punishing Gordon by making him suffer the same loss he did: losing the person he loves the most.

"Have you ever had to talk to the person you love the most, and tell them it's going to be alright even when you know it's not? Well you're about to know what that feels like, Gordon. Then you can look me in the eye and tell me you're sorry"

"His son's got the same chance she had: 50/50"

Plain as day.

It doesn't matter what Gordon's men did.

Of course it does. They exploited their positions of power and trust, and used it against Harvey and Rachel.

They are accessories to the crime. The Joker couldn't have gotten his hands on them without their help.

The Joker actually killed Rachel. Just as after Maroni escaped due to the coin toss, but then Dent throws in the second chance of killing the driver, he would have created a second chance to kill the Joker. But he just lets the Joker skate.

How could he have created a second chance to kill the Joker?

The problem here is that They didn't do what the carotoon did successfully- which is establish that Harvey was unblalnced prior to his scarring. The character wasn't explored thoroughly enough to make it realistic that he would do what he did. His story required alot more screentime than he was allowed.

I'm sorry, but I think you're totally wrong. If he was willing to abduct and terrorize a suspect in an ambulance simply because his precious Rachel was threatened, then it is absolutely no stretch to the imagination that being horribly disfigured, her being murdered, and it all happening because he was betrayed by people he trusted would push him over the edge the way it did.

Guilt, grief, and anger make the sanest people do the most shocking things.