I feel like DC still doesn't know what they're doing

[STARMAN]

WW's success slowed some of the bleeding from BvS. To keep momentum JL needs to follow up with quality or WW will be looked at as the outlier. It's up to JL to capitalize on WW's momentum and not squander it.

 

[random_havoc]

I suppose that's why Wonder Woman was their most profitable film? Because it was the most dark and serious?

You're exactly right. WW veered away from the stupidly dark and serious levels that Snyder was taking everything, that's part of why it was the most profitable.

 

[Grommers]

You're exactly right. WW veered away from the stupidly dark and serious levels that Snyder was taking everything, that's part of why it was the most profitable.

Oh yeah completely true - thats why - TDK also took a beating too because of its dark and serious levels.

 

[Skrilla31]

Oh yeah completely true - thats why - TDK also took a beating too because of its dark and serious levels.

TDK was still pretty fun though, thanks largely to Heath Ledger.

Everyone else was grim and serious but I think everyone would unanimously agree that Joker was a blast... hence why he's the most memorable thing in the movie.

There's nothing even remotely as fun or interesting going on in either MoS or BvS, which might explain why people were bored and then responded in kind to WW.

 

[writer0327]

TDK was still pretty fun though, thanks largely to Heath Ledger.

Everyone else was grim and serious but I think everyone would unanimously agree that Joker was a blast... hence why he's the most memorable thing in the movie.

There's nothing even remotely as fun or interesting going on in either MoS or BvS, which might explain why people were bored and then responded in kind to WW.

TDK had a ton of humor and intelligence that Snyder's films have lacked. It also had a logical story that one could follow. BvS felt dark and brooding for the sake of being dark and brooding.

 

[jmc]

What the Nolan trilogy and WW have in common is the humour is natural and are a result of what's happening around the characters. As serious as those films are tonally they are also filled with a lot of levity. Those 4 films strike the perfect balance between serious drama and fun superhero film. Marvel leans too heavily on the latter denying the audience the chance to really become attached to the characters, whilst the Snyder films leans on the former.

 

[Predator jp]

for me, superhero films that nailed the perfect balance between serious drama and fun were X-Men First Class and Future Past.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Snyderisms and whedonisms. Yeah, when it comes to tone, WW managed to avoid both.

 

[FunkMiller]

Oh yeah completely true - thats why - TDK also took a beating too because of its dark and serious levels.

It's got a lot to do with the dialogue, I think. Snyder's movies are full of heavy, portentous language that probably would look okay on a comic page, but sounds rather ridiculous coming from someone's mouth. It's all so heavy handed and deadly serious that it just wears you down. Human beings, no matter how grim the situation, have the capability for levity and 'humanity' in the way they communicate. When a movie just has everyone talking seriously, about serious things, in a serious voice, with a serious scowl, it just doesn't feel real. Hence the disconnect.
The flip side is Marvel, who undercut every serious situation with a flippant quip. This is just as bad, though easier to stomach, because everyone loves a decent gag.
Compare to Nolan trilogy. Largely naturalistic speech, with a good combination of seriousness and levity.

 

[STARMAN]

When darkness turns into dreariness it undoes a movie.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Moreso than the dark moments or dreary moments (most of which I think are actually quite well done, even if it's not the direction I would have gone for), I think there are just too many unintentionally dull moments in BvS/MOS.

I'm talking about stuff like Lois's long-winded bullet investigation (when we as an audience can already assume it's Lex Luthor behind it), exposition-filled conversations between emotionless Kryptonians, hinging drama on Lois's safety over and over again (when clearly she's going to be saved by Supes every time), or Lois and Superman just staring at each other.

 

[MbJ]

The Nolan films are very dark but I've seen it argued that the characters are generally more likable, which keeps the audience invested. In contrast Batman (despite Affleck giving an excellent performance) is a monster in this version and only really starts to change near the end, while (not to open that debate again) this version of Superman has been controversial with audiences and fans from the beginning.

Conversely, one of the many things Wonder Woman had working for it is that Diana is an instantly likable character that you get invested in and can root for.

 

[STARMAN]

Likeability goes a long way. When you like a character you invest yourself more, even if their are plot holes and other story issues.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Marvel leans too heavily on the latter denying the audience the chance to really become attached to the characters, whilst the Snyder films leans on the former.

I don't know about that. The humor is part of the reason why the people are able to get attached to these characters and the main tool that Marvel uses to ease audiences into the crazy concepts that they are asking them to buy. Do they overdo it a little sometimes? Yes. Could there be a bit more drama? Sure. But you don't become a what is it now, 11 billion dollar franchise if people don't come for more year after year nd they don't come back for more if they don't care about the characters.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Oh yeah completely true - thats why - TDK also took a beating too because of its dark and serious levels.

He said stoopidly dark.

 

[Flint Marko]

I'd argue that Marvel's success is built almost entirely on getting audience's attached and invested in their characters. So no, the humor clearly isn't impeding that.

 

[I Am The Knight]

He said stoopidly dark.

s'stoopid!

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The Nolan films are very dark but I've seen it argued that the characters are generally more likable, which keeps the audience invested. In contrast Batman (despite Affleck giving an excellent performance) is a monster in this version and only really starts to change near the end, while (not to open that debate again) this version of Superman has been controversial with audiences and fans from the beginning.

Conversely, one of the many things Wonder Woman had working for it is that Diana is an instantly likable character that you get invested in and can root for.

You can get away with total scumbags as characters, but they at least have to be charming and entertaining. Think Tony Montana or Hannibal Lecter. The problem with the Snyder films is that everyone is just so cold and sterile. Lifeless.

Also, at least in Ben Affleck's case he was really done in with some awful writing. We are never really shown why he acting this way and the resolution is a joke. His entire character arc in the film is handled atrociously and it robs him of much needed sympathy and audiences were unable to get invested.

 

[STARMAN]

True. Sterile and lifeless come to mind. Other than Lex, personalities are muted, I believe wrongly in the name of realism.

 

[CLARKY]

With recent announcement that Black Adam won't even be in Shazam even though they've lined up the friggin Rock to play him and now a Joker origin movie planned I feel like they just dashed my hopes that DC's movie division with its reworked executives set up might know what they're doing now.


If the Joker origin movie rumour is true it'll be conclusive proof to me, because that should never had made it passed the first suggestion. Maybe their worst movie concept yet.

I could go on but what do you all think?

I agree with you, I'm fed up of DC/WB direction with the movies. To me, it's clear that they don't know where they are going, judging this independently from the movies themselves.
Wonderwoman was, to me, the first step in the right direction. I'm not expecting anything from the JL movie, but I have hope WW2 or Aquaman will show good decisions and a great universe.
I have this weird impression, but it's only an impression that they are trying as much as they can to avoid having the same ideas than Marvel in order to avoid being copycats, forgetting that some of the Marvel's ideas are not Marvel's, they're just good.
I remember a post of mine from the time Batman begins went out. I was saying it was a bullet in the foot because the world of BatBeg was closed, no room for the DC universe. Yeah, and now Marvel did it. Jon Favreau explained it once for Iron Man 2 : "there's the Dark knight, there's Howard the Duck, and there's a line in between, that's what we are doing".
DC was slow and late building their universe, they can't avoid the comparison now.

 

[CLARKY]

You're exactly right. WW veered away from the stupidly dark and serious levels that Snyder was taking everything, that's part of why it was the most profitable.

Agreed.

 

[writer0327]

Likeability goes a long way.

Especially when characters are supposed to be "superheroes".

I've often said that realism can only go so far in superhero films. Nolan managed to mix gritty realism with some pretty fantastic ideas in BB, so it worked.

Ultimately people want to see heroes that are heroic, and more importantly, enjoy being heroes. MoS and BvS, it felt like the heroes didn't actually want to be heroes. There was this heavy is the head that wears the crown feeling hanging over both Superman and Batman that had the audience feeling sorry for these characters instead of rooting them on.

 

[Flint Marko]

MoS and BvS, it felt like the heroes didn't actually want to be heroes. There was this heavy is the head that wears the crown feeling hanging over both Superman and Batman that had the audience feeling sorry for these characters instead of rooting them on.

Which could have worked in theory, it'd just need to be done with care and tact by actual storytellers.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Also done a little later than the first bloody outing for the characters in the shared universe.

 

[writer0327]

Which could have worked in theory, it'd just need to be done with care and tact by actual storytellers.

Also done a little later than the first bloody outing for the characters in the shared universe.

Agreed with both of these. I don't think their entire "No one stays good in this world" sentiment and theme of BvS was the way to go at all. It wasn't earned through the course of that movie or from MoS. This isn't the way you want to meet these characters for the first time.

I would have been far more forgiving of a world-weary Batman who's sick of criminals to the point that he's becoming one himself as the end of a trilogy, not the first time we see him on screen.