The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[TheBatman072]

To make the Joker wear white face makeup is the same as making Batman a true Bat-Man. Thats the truth, anyone trying to down play the significance of such a change simply does not care if the character is true to the character.

Or better yet, having Dent just PAINT one side of his face.


Joker's white skin and Dent's facial scarring are crucial characteristics. Without them, the characters are just not the same.

 

[Keyser Soze]

To make the Joker wear white face makeup is the same as making Batman a true Bat-Man. Thats the truth, anyone trying to down play the significance of such a change simply does not care if the character is true to the character.

Again with this ridiculously exaggerated argument. This is as bad as the "anyone who thinks The Joker is going to be fine because they've nailed the character would be fine with an 80 year old black woman on a wheelchair playing him" rantings from earlier.

No, it's not the same as making Batman a true Bat-Man. The comparison to THAT is making The Joker into a Clown-Goblin or some monster. We're getting a Joker that looks the part, and acts the part, it's the way the look is constructed that's being altered.

And I must say, Norman, that I thought you were above the "If you don't think the same way I do about The Joker, YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CHARACTER!" mindset.

 

[Crook]

I can sympathise with the view. Like I've said, white skin would be my preferred choice. But regardless of whether it's make-up or not, The Joker is far from "just another crazy". It's like saying he's "just another disfigured villain" in the comics because of his white skin.

That was my point though. The permawhite automatically separates him from all the rest by that factor alone. Add in his psychotic personality, and you have someone that truly transcends a "traditional" bad-guy.

I think they nailed Bruce Wayne despite introducing a love interest in Rachel.
They nailed Alfred despite giving him more working-class roots.
They nailed Gordon despite making him a Gotham native rather than an "outsider".
They nailed Ra's al Ghul despite taking away the Lazarus Pit.
They nailed Scarecrow despite making him much younger.

Surely you know that none of those things do a damn thing to the character. I might give you the Ra's point, but even then, his immortality was never addressed, so there's still room to argue for that.

His white skin is far from just a cosmetic trait.

 

[Spade]

I believe in Keyser Soze.

 

[Brendan]

There was a small reference thrown in about the idea of Ras being immortal.

I thought that was fine.

 

[TheBatman072]

"But, is Ra's Al Ghul immortal? Or are his methods, supernatural?"

 

[The Sage]

this is going absolutely nowhere. if you really think organic webshooters...er... make up is going to ruin the character, let's just have this connversation in about eleven months.

i find the lack of vision and faith very disturbing.

I find your lack of using the spell check disturbing.

Comparing organic webshooters to Joker applying make-up instead of having bleached skin is akin to comparing Alfred not having a mustache in the movies to Batman not having horns on his cowl and scallops on his cape.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Or better yet, having Dent just PAINT one side of his face.


Joker's white skin and Dent's facial scarring are crucial characteristics. Without them, the characters are just not the same.

Again, not the same. Let's look at the wikipedia introductions for each character, out of interest:

THE JOKER
The Joker is a comic book supervillain in the DC Comics universe. He is widely considered to be Batman's archenemy. Created by Bill Finger and Bob Kane, with contributions by artist Jerry Robinson, the Joker's first appearance was in Batman #1 (Spring 1940).

The Joker is a master criminal with a clown-like appearance. Initially portrayed as a violent sociopath who murders people for his own amusement, the Joker, later in the 1940s, began to be written as a goofy trickster-thief. That characterization continued through the late 1950s and 1960s before the character became again depicted as a vicious killer who carves smiles into his victims. The Joker has been responsible for numerous tragedies in Batman's life, including the paralysis of Barbara Gordon (Batgirl/Oracle) and the murders of Jason Todd (the second Robin) and Jim Gordon's second wife Sarah Essen. He has been described by the Martian Manhunter in the JLA series as "the most corrupted of human souls."

Interpretations of the Joker in other media include Cesar Romero's in the 1960s Batman television series, Jack Nicholson's in Tim Burton's Batman, and Mark Hamill's in Batman: The Animated Series and other DC Animated Universe shows. Wizard magazine listed him the #1 villain of all time in 2006. As played by Nicholson, The Joker ranks #45 in the American Film Institute's list of the top 50 film villains of all time. Heath Ledger will portray the Joker for director Christopher Nolan's Batman Begins sequel, The Dark Knight.

TWO-FACE
wo-Face is a fictional character, a supervillain and enemy of Batman in the DC Comics Universe. Created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger, he first appeared in Detective Comics #66 (August 1942).

Bob Kane was inspired by a movie poster advertising the Spencer Tracy film Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and conceived the idea of a villain with a dual personality. Two-Face was once Harvey Dent, District Attorney of Gotham City and close ally of Batman. After a criminal disfigured half of his face with acid, Dent became the insane crime boss Two-Face who would choose to do either good or evil depending upon the results of flipping a coin — a device which was taken from the 1932 version of Scarface.

Originally, he was one of many gimmick-focused comic book villains, plotting crimes based around the number two, such as robbing Gotham Second National Bank at 2:00 on February 2. In recent years, writers have portrayed his obsession with duality and his criminal behavior as the result of multiple personality disorder and a history of child abuse. He obsessively makes all important decisions by flipping a two-headed coin, one side of which is scratched.

Although too gruesome for the 1960s television show that popularized Batman and much of his rogues gallery, Two-Face has been a prominent foe of the Dark Knight and was played by Tommy Lee Jones in the 1995 film Batman Forever. The Harvey Dent character will also play a part in the upcoming film The Dark Knight, portrayed by Aaron Eckhart.

...

Other than his "clown-like appearance" (which The Joker still has in "The Dark Knight", regardless of how he gets it), no mention is made of his bleached skin in this introduction, the aim of which is to summarise the core elements of the character. However, in the introduction for Two-Face, we go into detail about his scarring, and what it was inspired by, and what it has caused. It is crucial to his character. He's even named Two-Face, for literally having "two faces".

We know that the scarring is at the core of Dent's breakdown. But we know nothing for sure about The Joker, and his madness.

 

[Spade]

For me, the Ra's revelation was just fine. Liam's a great actor, though. Half of the reason it didn't so much as bother me was because of an awesome choice for Ra's/ Ducard. I'm pretty sure it'll be the same for me in this film, bar some unforseen circumstance.

 

[TheBatman072]

Yeah. Quoting wikipedia. That sure convinced me.


And yes. Clown-like appearence. His skin is bleached white(his hair is possibly dyed green, couldn't really care less if that's the case or not about his hair). He adds the clothes, red lips and black eye stuff to finish it out.


With just his white skin, he doesn't look like much of a clown does he?


White skin, whether it has an explaination or not, is SEMINAL to Joker's character. Whether you like it or not.

 

[Keyser Soze]

And while we're talking about Two-Face, I guess that "Batman Forever" did him justice much more than "The Animated Series", right? I mean, "Forever" got his origin by right - he got his face disfigured by acid in a court-room! "BTAS" has him get caught in a factory explosion, and - GASP! - Two-Face is already there, clearly defined in a split-personality, BEFORE the accident! They changed the origins of the character! So surely, by default, Forever Two-Face > BTAS Two-Face.

 

[bobguy64]

Does anyone think Joker will die at the end, or will he live to possibly be in future sequels?



.

 

[Spade]

Yeah. Quoting wikipedia. That sure convinced me.

What, does it say "then joker wuz killed by a stingray lol" someplace there? They do cite their sources even if the material can be edited. That's sort of a poor reason to avoid the conclusion made upon the information.

 

[deathfromabove]

To make the Joker wear white face makeup is the same as making Batman a true Bat-Man. Thats the truth, anyone trying to down play the significance of such a change simply does not care if the character is true to the character.

again, i gotta agree with keyser. what a rediculous statement. very disappointing norm.

I can sympathise with the view. Like I've said, white skin would be my preferred choice. But regardless of whether it's make-up or not, The Joker is far from "just another crazy". It's like saying he's "just another disfigured villain" in the comics because of his white skin.



I think they nailed Bruce Wayne despite introducing a love interest in Rachel.
They nailed Alfred despite giving him more working-class roots.
They nailed Gordon despite making him a Gotham native rather than an "outsider".
They nailed Ra's al Ghul despite taking away the Lazarus Pit.
They nailed Scarecrow despite making him much younger.

And I think it is possible to nail The Joker without bleaching his skin. Much like "Begins", where there seemed to be a lot of unsettling changes during the hype period, in the end they remained true to the spirit of the comics. And I think in "The Dark Knight", despite the changes, they will stay true to the spirit of The Joker.

Or better yet, having Dent just PAINT one side of his face.

Joker's white skin and Dent's facial scarring are crucial characteristics. Without them, the characters are just not the same.

not even close. maybe it would be the same if dent painted the scarred half of his face a different color than the rest but even then... remember the joker is still white and he's still frikken disfigured.

Again with this ridiculously exaggerated argument. This is as bad as the "anyone who thinks The Joker is going to be fine because they've nailed the character would be fine with an 80 year old black woman on a wheelchair playing him" rantings from earlier.

No, it's not the same as making Batman a true Bat-Man. The comparison to THAT is making The Joker into a Clown-Goblin or some monster. We're getting a Joker that looks the part, and acts the part, it's the way the look is constructed that's being altered.

And I must say, Norman, that I thought you were above the "If you don't think the same way I do about The Joker, YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CHARACTER!" mindset.

seriously. batman is my favorite fictional character ever. and i promise i have reading his stories since before many of your parents even met so get off your high horses. opinions are like ********s but comments like that invalidate themselves.

 

[Crook]

And while we're talking about Two-Face, I guess that "Batman Forever" did him justice much more than "The Animated Series", right? I mean, "Forever" got his origin by right - he got his face disfigured by acid in a court-room! "BTAS" has him get caught in a factory explosion, and - GASP! - Two-Face is already there, clearly defined in a split-personality, BEFORE the accident! They changed the origins of the character! So surely, by default, Forever Two-Face > BTAS Two-Face.

You should name yourself the "Master Baiter", because I saw that trap a mile away.

 

[TheBatman072]

And while we're talking about Two-Face, I guess that "Batman Forever" did him justice much more than "The Animated Series", right? I mean, "Forever" got his origin by right - he got his face disfigured by acid in a court-room! "BTAS" has him get caught in a factory explosion, and - GASP! - Two-Face is already there, clearly defined in a split-personality, BEFORE the accident! They changed the origins of the character! So surely, by default, Forever Two-Face > BTAS Two-Face.

You don't need an origin to explain the white skin. It's better left as a mystery.

 

[The Sage]

We know that the scarring is at the core of Dent's breakdown. But we know nothing for sure about The Joker, and his madness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Joker#Origin

Origin

Detective Comics #168 (February 1951) revealed that the Joker had once been a criminal known as the Red Hood. In the story, the Red Hood falls into a vat of chemicals while escaping from Batman. He emerges with white skin, green hair, and a bizarre grin.

...Though many have been related, a definitive history of the Joker before the chemical bath has never been established in the comics, and his real name has never been confirmed.

The most widely cited backstory can be seen in The Killing Joke. It depicts him as originally being an engineer at a chemical plant who quits his job to become a stand-up comedian, only to fail miserably. Desperate to support his pregnant wife, the man agrees to help two criminals break into the plant where he was formerly employed. In this version of the story, the Red Hood persona is given to the inside man of every job (thus it is never the same man twice); this makes the man appear to be the ringleader, allowing the two criminals to escape. During the planning, police contact him and inform him that his wife has died in a household accident.

tricken with grief, he attempts to back out of the plan, but the criminals strong-arm him into keeping his promise. As soon as they enter the plant, however, they are immediately caught by security and a shoot-out ensues, in which the two criminals are killed. As the engineer tries to escape, he is confronted by Batman, who is investigating the disturbance. Terrified, the engineer leaps over a rail and plummets into a vat of chemicals. When he surfaces in the nearby reservoir, he removes the hood and sees his reflection: bleached chalk-white skin, ruby-red lips, and green hair. These events, coupled with his other misfortunes that day, drive the engineer completely insane, resulting in the birth of the Joker.

 

[StorminNorman]

Again with this ridiculously exaggerated argument. This is as bad as the "anyone who thinks The Joker is going to be fine because they've nailed the character would be fine with an 80 year old black woman on a wheelchair playing him" rantings from earlier.

No, it's not the same as making Batman a true Bat-Man. The comparison to THAT is making The Joker into a Clown-Goblin or some monster. We're getting a Joker that looks the part, and acts the part, it's the way the look is constructed that's being altered.

And I must say, Norman, that I thought you were above the "If you don't think the same way I do about The Joker, YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE CHARACTER!" mindset.

Oddly enough this post was not made by me, but my brother who did not notice that "Romero's Stache" was not logged in

 

[Keyser Soze]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Joker#Origin

Origin

Detective Comics #168 (February 1951) revealed that the Joker had once been a criminal known as the Red Hood. In the story, the Red Hood falls into a vat of chemicals while escaping from Batman. He emerges with white skin, green hair, and a bizarre grin.

...Though many have been related, a definitive history of the Joker before the chemical bath has never been established in the comics, and his real name has never been confirmed.

The most widely cited backstory can be seen in The Killing Joke. It depicts him as originally being an engineer at a chemical plant who quits his job to become a stand-up comedian, only to fail miserably. Desperate to support his pregnant wife, the man agrees to help two criminals break into the plant where he was formerly employed. In this version of the story, the Red Hood persona is given to the inside man of every job (thus it is never the same man twice); this makes the man appear to be the ringleader, allowing the two criminals to escape. During the planning, police contact him and inform him that his wife has died in a household accident.

tricken with grief, he attempts to back out of the plan, but the criminals strong-arm him into keeping his promise. As soon as they enter the plant, however, they are immediately caught by security and a shoot-out ensues, in which the two criminals are killed. As the engineer tries to escape, he is confronted by Batman, who is investigating the disturbance. Terrified, the engineer leaps over a rail and plummets into a vat of chemicals. When he surfaces in the nearby reservoir, he removes the hood and sees his reflection: bleached chalk-white skin, ruby-red lips, and green hair. These events, coupled with his other misfortunes that day, drive the engineer completely insane, resulting in the birth of the Joker.

You missed my "The introduction summarises the key elements of the character" phrase.

 

[The Sage]

And while we're talking about Two-Face, I guess that "Batman Forever" did him justice much more than "The Animated Series", right? I mean, "Forever" got his origin by right - he got his face disfigured by acid in a court-room! "BTAS" has him get caught in a factory explosion, and - GASP! - Two-Face is already there, clearly defined in a split-personality, BEFORE the accident! They changed the origins of the character! So surely, by default, Forever Two-Face > BTAS Two-Face.

Of course, in neither of those interpretations is the scarring applied make-up...

 

[deathfromabove]

And yes. Clown-like appearence. His skin is bleached white(his hair is possibly dyed green, couldn't really care less if that's the case or not about his hair). He adds the clothes, red lips and black eye stuff to finish it out.
With just his white skin, he doesn't look like much of a clown does he?

no he doesnt. a carved smile is much more obvious.

White skin, whether it has an explaination or not, is SEMINAL to Joker's character. Whether you like it or not.

so he can add the red lips, black eyes, green hair, and clothing but his skin must be permanantly white?? why??? someone give me a good reason please. no more "just cause" or "you dont know the character"

explain it to me.

please

And while we're talking about Two-Face, I guess that "Batman Forever" did him justice much more than "The Animated Series", right? I mean, "Forever" got his origin by right - he got his face disfigured by acid in a court-room! "BTAS" has him get caught in a factory explosion, and - GASP! - Two-Face is already there, clearly defined in a split-personality, BEFORE the accident! They changed the origins of the character! So surely, by default, Forever Two-Face > BTAS Two-Face.

im sorry for being on keyser's jock all night but he is making sense dammit!

 

[Keyser Soze]

Yeah. Quoting wikipedia. That sure convinced me.


And yes. Clown-like appearence. His skin is bleached white(his hair is possibly dyed green, couldn't really care less if that's the case or not about his hair). He adds the clothes, red lips and black eye stuff to finish it out.


With just his white skin, he doesn't look like much of a clown does he?


White skin, whether it has an explaination or not, is SEMINAL to Joker's character. Whether you like it or not.

Wait, so you're saying the white skin alone doesn't create his iconic "clown-like" appearance?

You then talk about The Joker creating the look himself...and yet you cannot go one step past him creating his costume, creating his hairstyle, creating the clown features on his face...and accept him "creating" the white face too?

 

[TheBatman072]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Joker#Origin

Origin

Detective Comics #168 (February 1951) revealed that the Joker had once been a criminal known as the Red Hood. In the story, the Red Hood falls into a vat of chemicals while escaping from Batman. He emerges with white skin, green hair, and a bizarre grin.

...Though many have been related, a definitive history of the Joker before the chemical bath has never been established in the comics, and his real name has never been confirmed.

The most widely cited backstory can be seen in The Killing Joke. It depicts him as originally being an engineer at a chemical plant who quits his job to become a stand-up comedian, only to fail miserably. Desperate to support his pregnant wife, the man agrees to help two criminals break into the plant where he was formerly employed. In this version of the story, the Red Hood persona is given to the inside man of every job (thus it is never the same man twice); this makes the man appear to be the ringleader, allowing the two criminals to escape. During the planning, police contact him and inform him that his wife has died in a household accident.

tricken with grief, he attempts to back out of the plan, but the criminals strong-arm him into keeping his promise. As soon as they enter the plant, however, they are immediately caught by security and a shoot-out ensues, in which the two criminals are killed. As the engineer tries to escape, he is confronted by Batman, who is investigating the disturbance. Terrified, the engineer leaps over a rail and plummets into a vat of chemicals. When he surfaces in the nearby reservoir, he removes the hood and sees his reflection: bleached chalk-white skin, ruby-red lips, and green hair. These events, coupled with his other misfortunes that day, drive the engineer completely insane, resulting in the birth of the Joker.

Of course, in neither of those interpretations is the scarring applied make-up...

You've just been Saged.

 

[deathfromabove]

Of course, in neither of those interpretations is the scarring applied make-up...

um, the scarring isnt applied makeup here either.

its an actual scar.

the color of his skin is (probably) white make up.

 

[Crook]

so he can add the red lips, black eyes, green hair, and clothing but his skin must be permanantly white?? why??? someone give me a good reason please. no more "just cause" or "you dont know the character"

explain it to me.

please

"You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak and you have to wear a mask!"

That's as best as I can sum it up in regards to his disfigurement.