The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[Mr. Superhero]

I disagree with that notion, and I said that in my previous post. Many people today have posted definitions on insanity, and none, NONE of them said, "one who enjoys killing."

But surely, the enjoyment of murder is considered "totally irrational"?

Now, I'm not saying it's okay to enjoy killing. It's not, it's wrong. But that relates to morals, not sanity. We believe it is morally wrong to kill, so a person who enjoys killing is morally wrong, not insane.

Sanity:

1. The quality or condition of being sane; soundness of mind.
2. Soundness of judgment or reason.

I beg to differ. If you are morally correct, then you have a "soundness of mind". If you enjoy killing people, then you are morally inept, and thus are not sound in the mind.

It's a symbiosis.

A person who enjoys killing does not need to have a deranged sense of the world. They don't have to have multiple personalities or hear voices. Sometimes we hope they do because it gives us a reason to explain why these people do what they do. But sometimes, people are born with no moral compass, and they simply enjoy killing. This is NOT insanity, this is SOCIOPATHY.

Okay, so, according to you, a man who can fly a plain, fend Batman off at the same time, all while making a joke out of the situation, is not "immoderate, wild or senseless" (definitions for "insane")?

If you ask me, I just think you're having difficulty understanding the dictionary definition for "insane". The Joker exhibits many "insane" attributes. I mean, what is your definition of insane, other than someone who eats poo or whatever?

According to my dictionary, the Joker is very much insane, because he seems to tick all of the boxes. Also, I refer you back to the slogan for "The Killing Joke". Apparently, the Joker is beyond insanity...

Alan Moore disagrees with your opinion that the Joker isn't insane.

Do you see the difference?

I see the difference perfectly, but it is you who cannot accept that Joker is both insane and a sociopath. I mean, if he is "beyond insanity", then surely he is beyond sociopathy?

An insane person perceives the world in a completely different way then we do.

Oh my Goodness; you have just gone and assumed what the word "insane" means, without looking it up. An insane person is someone who is highly immoderate, irrational and senseless.

Kind of sounds like a good description for the Joker, wouldn't you say?

A way we can't understand.

So, you can understand why the Joker takes pictures of dead people for his own personal amusement?

A sociopath perceives the world the same as us. They know what's right, they know what's wrong, they know you don't crow like a chicken and dance naked in the street, they don't hear voices or see people who aren't there.

The dictionary disagrees with you. All that says is that being insane is all about being immoderate, irrational and senseless. You are just assuming what these words mean.

They just enjoy killing.

What a sane thing to do, right?

That has nothing to do with my point. Yes that man is insane. His reasoning is skewed, and his sense of right and wrong is completely off.

What an outright contradiction.

By this statement, you are implying that the Joker's actions are perfectly justified and that his reasoning isn't skewed. I mean, how is trying to "prove a point" a justifiable excuse for shooting an innocent person and then showing pictures of their naked body to their parents? That reasoning seems pretty skewed to me...

Also, what you seem to be forgetting is that the guy who raped his own daughter is the only crime he every committed -- doesn't the Joker commit appalling crimes on a regular basis?

A sociopath on the other hand, could do the same thing, but do it for no reason other then they felt like it.

So, why isn't the slogan to "The Killing Joke" read as: "Beyond evil is sociopathy, beyond sociopathy is the Joker"?

Seems to me like you are neglecting the key synonyms for the word "insane". If you read the definitions for the word, then you will see that they are a very accurate description for the Joker.

They know it's wrong, and they don't need to try and justify it the way this man did. They simply have no moral compass. Do you see the difference?

And, as I have stated, the Joker is both. I'm trying to be reasonable with you here...

This man is insane because he now is viewing the world in a tilted view. He has to use skewed logic to justify them.

Kind of sounds like a good description for the Joker...

he way he perceives life has been altered. A sociopath would know what they did was bad, but just do it because they wanted to.

What a muddled argument. You are trying too hard to define these words. Just use the dictionary. The Joker exhibits attributes from both the synonyms used to describe "sociopath" and "insane".

It's a simple argument, really...

The Joker is insane. According to the dictionary, anyway.

I'm implying that he is sane, but also a sociopath. I thought I made that clear.

So, according to your superb logic, the Joker is "of sound mind"? He shows "good judgment"? He acts "rationally"? The Joker is the complete opposite of all these descriptive words, and is thus not sane. If this is what you have concluded from reading up about the Joker character, then I am afraid that I may not be of any help to you.

However, I'm not trying to say that the Joker is this way 100% of the time. I actually prefer him to be the guy that was driven mad after a crappy life and one bad accident. But I don't mind this other point of view either.

And that's exactly what did happen. He fell into the chemicals, and was driven insane.

Hey, Alan Moore seems to share the same opinion...

I hope you're not trying to imply that Joker wasn't trying to prove a point. He says it himself.

No, don't worry -- I'm not that insane.

If you think Joker did all that to Gordon just to get his rocks off then you completely missed the entire point of that book. Everything he did was to prove his point.

You have missed my point.

Sure, the Joker tried to drive Gordon insane to prove a point, but who asked him to prove a point? Nobody. He did that himself, because he felt that it would be a fun thing to do, and who knows, he might have proved something to himself and to others in the process. But, in all actuality, the Joker tried to drive Gordon insane because he, himself, is insane. That's what insane people do. They do things that are completely against rationality.

I really don't see what you are trying to show by this. If the Joker insists that driving Gordon insane will prove his point and show that he isn't so different to others, then what does that say about Joker's state of mind? It says that he is friggin' insane, himself, doesn't it? Because by driving Gordon to lunacy, he will show that that is how he was driven to lunacy.

What aren't you getting here? The Killing Joke, in of itself, kills your argument, because the entire book is based on the Joker's insanity, not his sociopathy, or whatever...

As I proved above, Joker did all he did in TKJ to prove a point. All the actions he did could be the same actions of a sociopath who likes to hurt people and wants to prove a point.

And yet driving Gordon insane would have proved Joker's point. And what was Joker's point? That he wasn't so different from the world. His insanity was developed over the coarse of "one bad day".

Sociopathy is merely a resulting factor in being driven insane. There are many holes in your argument.

His actions do not make him insane

Yep, I suppose none of the Joker's actions are immoderate, irrational and senseless, are they?

It's his perception of the world. If the Joker sees the world the same as us, but simply likes to hurt people, then he's a sociopath.

And what has insanity got to do with "viewing the world differently"? It's got nothing to do with how you "view the world" in a generic sense. This is just your own personal definition of the word. Insanity is all about displaying a great deal of mental derangement. If you are deranged, then you have a morally inept approach to life. When the Joker fell into the chemicals; he looked at himself, and burst out laughing...

He explains why, in TKJ, when he tries to persuade Gordon to do the same thing that he did. When the Joker explains all those things to Gordon about "madness being the emergency exit", he is speaking from personal experience.

He did the same thing. Why do I even need to explain this to you?

"My point is... my point is -- I went crazy."

The Joker is goddamn insane.

If the Joker sees the world through a completely different view, one that makes no sense and is not comprehensible to us, then he's crazy.

HAHA...another "assumption" on your part.

What I don't understand is, if Joker is just a "sociopath", then I take it that Joker is lying to Batman about him being "reduced to lunacy"? It really is quite confounding, because your entire argument seems to be rebelling against everything that was presented to us in TKJ.

To prove his point, the Joker had to drive Gordon insane within the coarse of "one bad day". Why? Because that's what happened to the Joker. He wanted to prove to the likes of Batman that everyone is just as insane as he is, when breached. How does this not show that Joker is insane?

A Sociopath is not merely a anti-social disorder. It's a person who has no moral compass. A person with no conscience. They could do the most horrible deeds alive and it won't bother them.

And it's not just my interpretation, as I said above, I enjoy both takes on the character.

And through insanity comes sociopathy.

That's why the Joker attempted to drive Gordon insane. Because through insanity Gordon would have become just as morally deranged as the Joker.

That's the entire point of the book -- it explains how the Joker became so evil.

It happened because he was driven insane.

 

[The Shape]

A Sociopath is not merely a anti-social disorder. It's a person who has no moral compass. A person with no conscience. They could do the most horrible deeds alive and it won't bother them.

And it's not just my interpretation, as I said above, I enjoy both takes on the character.

So in other words...an insane person?

dictionary.com is your friend.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

So in other words...an insane person?

"Batman: The Killing Joke" is your friend.

Fixed.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Comic book writers have misunderstood the concept of insanity for a long time.

 

[The Shape]

Comic book writers have misunderstood the concept of insanity for a long time.

But it's not too complicated. The Joker likes killing people for fun, which is definitely not sane. Therefore, he is insane. End of story.

Yes, the Joker's psychological profile is much deeper than a simple case of the crazies, but there's no denying that he does not have a sane bone in his body.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Comic book writers have misunderstood the concept of insanity for a long time.

So, now even you are insisting that the Joker is neither immoderate, irrational or senseless?

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

 

[BatSpider]

So, now even you are insisting that the Joker is neither immoderate, irrational or senseless?

Interesting. Care to elaborate?

Still debating the insane topic?

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Still debating the insane topic?

We are, indeed.

 

[Infinity9999x]

But surely, the enjoyment of murder is considered "totally irrational"?


Sanity:

1. The quality or condition of being sane; soundness of mind.
2. Soundness of judgment or reason.

I beg to differ. If you are morally correct, then you have a "soundness of mind". If you enjoy killing people, then you are morally inept, and thus are not sound in the mind.

No, I don't think enjoying murder is irrational. It's not any more irrational then enjoying a cigarette or a nice ice cream cone. Enjoying murder is the same as enjoying everything else we do, but we as a people believe that murder is bad, and thus enjoying murder is bad.

As a society we enjoy many things that are irrational. Smoking for instance. People enjoy an activity that hurts their body. That's irrational. Are smokers crazy now?

I disagree that being morally inept makes you not sound of mind. A morally inept person could still quite easily read a book, go to work, cook food, provide for themselves, and hold a steady job. None of those seem to indicate that one is not sound of mind.

It's a symbiosis.
Okay, so, according to you, a man who can fly a plain, fend Batman off at the same time, all while making a joke out of the situation, is not "immoderate, wild or senseless" (definitions for "insane")?

Well, no I don't. Action Heroes in movies do things like that all the time and we as an audience never assume that they're crazy. For one, the Joker didn't fly the plain with the idea that Batman would be on it. So I don't think it's senseless for him to be flying a plane. He was fighting off Batman because Batman attacked him, so I don't think it's senseless that he's defending himself. And that he made a joke about it shows that he has a quick wit.

In short, that situation does not, in any way, show that Joker is insane.

If you ask me, I just think you're having difficulty understanding the dictionary definition for "insane". The Joker exhibits many "insane" attributes. I mean, what is your definition of insane, other than someone who eats poo or whatever?

The definition of insane? The same definition as yours, I just interpret it differently.

1 .not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged. 2.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally derangedIf you're mentally deranged, then your mental state is thrown in disarray. If your mind is in disarray, and your mind is the thing that perceives the world around you, then your responses to the world around you will also be in a disarray.

Enjoying killing does not mean your mind is in disarray. Your mind doesn't have to be in disorder to enjoy killing. It means that you don't feel bad about killing. Which means that you either don't subscribe to societies meaning of right and wrong, or you never learned it.

According to my dictionary, the Joker is very much insane, because he seems to tick all of the boxes. Also, I refer you back to the slogan for "The Killing Joke". Apparently, the Joker is beyond insanity...

That's fine. And in many stories, the Joker does fit the bill of an insane man. Heck, in most stories I'd say. But in some, Joker comes off like a Sociopath that doesn't want his game to end, so he pretends to be insane.

And telling me the slogan for a book means nothing. That's advertising to sell a comic, it means nothing to me. Advertising agents can have movies and books proclaimed "the best this year," or "the most stunning piece of literature ever written." They're just catchy statements that get you to buy the product, nothing more.

[qote]
Alan Moore disagrees with your opinion that the Joker isn't insane.[/quote]
That's perfectly fine of him.

I see the difference perfectly, but it is you who cannot accept that Joker is both insane and a sociopath. I mean, if he is "beyond insanity", then surely he is beyond sociopathy?

Oh I do. In many stories I think the Joker is both. I just think that in some he comes off more like a sociopath that is not insane.

Oh my Goodness; you have just gone and assumed what the word "insane" means, without looking it up. An insane person is someone who is highly immoderate, irrational and senseless.

The definition for insane can also be

1.not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged. 2.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally deranged: insane actions; an insane asylum.
Now, where I got my definition for insane is this.
1.An insane person is someone who is mentally deranged.
2.Being mentally deranged means that your mental state is put in disarray or disorder.
3.Your mind is the thing the perceives the world around you, if your mind is in disarray, then the way you perceive the world is in disarray. It's out of order. In other words, an insane person views the world in a completely different way then we would.

So you're wrong, I did not assume what the definition of insane was.

So, you can understand why the Joker takes pictures of dead people for his own personal amusement?

For one, Barbara wasn't dead. And also, in TKJ we have no idea if the Joker actually enjoyed what he was doing or not. The only reason he provided for doing the things he did was to make a point, not for his enjoyment.

The dictionary disagrees with you. All that says is that being insane is all about being immoderate, irrational and senseless. You are just assuming what these words mean.

Well, you're wrong in the fact that all the dictionary describes insane as, since I just posted a definition from another dictionary website that defined insane in the terms I said above. And as I showed above, I am not assuming what these words mean.

What a sane thing to do, right?

What an outright contradiction.

By this statement, you are implying that the Joker's actions are perfectly justified and that his reasoning isn't skewed. I mean, how is trying to "prove a point" a justifiable excuse for shooting an innocent person and then showing pictures of their naked body to their parents? That reasoning seems pretty skewed to me...

I never implied that. I implied that the Joker carried out all his actions in TKJ knowing full well that what he was doing was wrong. He didn't need to try to justify it with deranged logic such as the murderous husband. He knew the way he went about making his point was wrong and he did it anyway.

The man you mentioned had a distorted view of right and wrong. Joker knows full well what he's doing is wrong, but does it anyways.

Also, what you seem to be forgetting is that the guy who raped his own daughter is the only crime he every committed -- doesn't the Joker commit appalling crimes on a regular basis?

I know, but that doesn't relate at all to the argument. The man was insane because his view of the world was distorted. He used distorted logic to try and justify his actions.

The Joker doesn't try to justify his actions. He knows he's doing the wrong thing and does it anyways, as I said above.

So, why isn't the slogan to "The Killing Joke" read as: "Beyond evil is sociopathy, beyond sociopathy is the Joker"?

Because in that story, they wanted the Joker to be insane. And because the word insane is much more well known then sociopathy, so using the word insane is better marketing technique.

Seems to me like you are neglecting the key synonyms for the word "insane". If you read the definitions for the word, then you will see that they are a very accurate description for the Joker.

I'm not debating that. As I said above, in many stories the Joker is portrayed as insane.

And, as I have stated, the Joker is both. I'm trying to be reasonable with you here...

I know that the Joker is both, and I agree with you. I'm just saying in some stories he is portrayed more as one or the other.

Kind of sounds like a good description for the Joker...

In some stories. Yet in other stories the Joker offers no reason to why he does his deeds, and seems to know full well that what he is doing is wrong.

What a muddled argument. You are trying too hard to define these words. Just use the dictionary. The Joker exhibits attributes from both the synonyms used to describe "sociopath" and "insane".

It's a simple argument, really...

The Joker is insane. According to the dictionary, anyway.

I agree, in some stories he is.

So, according to your superb logic, the Joker is "of sound mind"? He shows "good judgment"? He acts "rationally"? The Joker is the complete opposite of all these descriptive words, and is thus not sane. If this is what you have concluded from reading up about the Joker character, then I am afraid that I may not be of any help to you.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "sound mind". I think a person that can orchestrate some of the schemes Joker carries out must be of sound mind. I don't know how you could if you weren't. I define insane as having a distorted mind, in some events the Joker seems to have a very well functioning mind, but he enjoys to kill people. As I've said before, I do not think that is insane.

However, I do think in many stories the Joker appears to be insane.


--I'll post the second half in another post, I know it's annoying having to read through one huge post.

 

[Infinity9999x]

And that's exactly what did happen. He fell into the chemicals, and was driven insane.

Wait, I thought that this was up for debate too?t:

You have missed my point.

Sure, the Joker tried to drive Gordon insane to prove a point, but who asked him to prove a point? Nobody. He did that himself, because he felt that it would be a fun thing to do, and who knows, he might have proved something to himself and to others in the process. But, in all actuality, the Joker tried to drive Gordon insane because he, himself, is insane. That's what insane people do. They do things that are completely against rationality.


I really don't see what you are trying to show by this. If the Joker insists that driving Gordon insane will prove his point and show that he isn't so different to others, then what does that say about Joker's state of mind? It says that he is friggin' insane, himself, doesn't it? Because by driving Gordon to lunacy, he will show that that is how he was driven to lunacy.

What aren't you getting here? The Killing Joke, in of itself, kills your argument, because the entire book is based on the Joker's insanity, not his sociopathy, or whatever...

I do agree with you in the fact that TKJ really isn't a good example for my point. In that, the Joker is portrayed as insane, in fact it's the book that shows him being the farthest away from sociopath then almost any other story. At the end, it almost seems as if the Joker regrets what's become of him. A sociopath simply wouldn't care.

TAS is a good example for a more sociopathic joker. In many of those (not all) he carries out very well planned schemes. His though process does not seemed to be disordered, since he can plan out and build huge contraptions and plan out everything quite fine. He knows what he is doing is wrong, and he doesn't care. Usually the things he does are to improve his own wealth or kill Batman. Neither of these reasons are irrational. They both improve his life, making him richer or making it easier to carry out his projects by eliminating Batman.

Sociopathy is merely a resulting factor in being driven insane. There are many holes in your argument.

No it's not. It can be, but sometimes people are born as Sociopaths for no apparent reason. As I've said before, one can be a Sociopath and not be insane.

Yep, I suppose none of the Joker's actions are immoderate, irrational and senseless, are they?

I've never said that, nor do I believe it.

[qupte]
And what has insanity got to do with "viewing the world differently"? It's got nothing to do with how you "view the world" in a generic sense. This is just your own personal definition of the word. Insanity is all about displaying a great deal of mental derangement. If you are deranged, then you have a morally inept approach to life. When the Joker fell into the chemicals; he looked at himself, and burst out laughing...[/quote]

What does it have to do with viewing the world differently? Well, I think I pointed that out when I described how I viewed the definition of insanity. So I would disagree with you, I think insanity has everything to do with how you view the world.

He explains why, in TKJ, when he tries to persuade Gordon to do the same thing that he did. When the Joker explains all those things to Gordon about "madness being the emergency exit", he is speaking from personal experience.

He did the same thing. Why do I even need to explain this to you?

"My point is... my point is -- I went crazy."

The Joker is goddamn insane.


HAHA...another "assumption" on your part.

What I don't understand is, if Joker is just a "sociopath", then I take it that Joker is lying to Batman about him being "reduced to lunacy"? It really is quite confounding, because your entire argument seems to be rebelling against everything that was presented to us in TKJ.

That's why the Joker attempted to drive Gordon insane. Because through insanity Gordon would have become just as morally deranged as the Joker.

That's the entire point of the book -- it explains how the Joker became so evil.

It happened because he was driven insane.

I said above that you were right in that TKJ doesn't illustrate my point very well. But, there are many different interpretations of the Joker, and in other stories he is not displayed as he was in TKJ.

I really don't know why you're treating TKJ as the ultimate Joker source anyways, I mean you did say that all interpretations were valid, and that the only opinion that really mattered about the interpretations of a character is what that characters creators say about him. Alan Moore isn't the creator of the Joker, which means, by your logic, his interpretation of the Joker character is no less valid then mine.

 

[The Shape]

No, I don't think enjoying murder is irrational. It's not any more irrational then enjoying a cigarette or a nice ice cream cone. Enjoying murder is the same as enjoying everything else we do, but we as a people believe that murder is bad, and thus enjoying murder is bad.

As a society we enjoy many things that are irrational. Smoking for instance. People enjoy an activity that hurts their body. That's irrational. Are smokers crazy now?

I disagree that being morally inept makes you not sound of mind. A morally inept person could still quite easily read a book, go to work, cook food, provide for themselves, and hold a steady job. None of those seem to indicate that one is not sound of mind.

Muder = smoke cigarettes = eating ice cream? What now?

You can't use the argument that "we as a people think murder is bad". Going by that logic, there's no such thing as insanity, because it's a term that "we as a people" made up. Of course we determine these things. Who else would, cats? Dogs?

Murder is illegal. It is wrong. It is bad. There's no way to negate that, and I have a feeling that will never change. A murderer does no have a sound or healthy mind. Murderers are mentally ill.

Does this go against the legal definition of insanity? Yes, but the legal definition of insane is quite different from the psychiatric definition. From Wikipedia -- The insanity defense is based on evaluations by forensic professionals that the defendant was incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong at the time the offense was committed.

Okay. Would the Joker be considered insane in a court of law? Maybe not, because he understands what he's doing is wrong. But is he insane? Yes, because he is nothing close to sane. He is not mentally healthy, he is completely unreasonable/illogical, and he is definitely not free from mental disorder. Therefore, he can be classified as insane.

Once again, which sounds more like the Joker we know and love?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sane
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insane

 

[titan101]

come on , people . we're talking about a guy who tried to legalize joker fish . a guy who tried to kill everyone in gotham city just so he could find the holiday killer . a guy who kidnapped a police officer , shot his daughter , took pictures of it and showed them to him just to prove a point . how does that sound sane ? infact , just about EVERYTHING the joker does is so irrational and demented that it's impossible to even try to argue that he's at all sane . in fact , in the very movie we're supposed to be talking about right now , he carves a smile into his face and even

Spoiler

dresses up like a nurse while blowing up an entire hospital and killing everyone in it

 

[Mr. Superhero]

No, I don't think enjoying murder is irrational.

Right, so it's "rational" to enjoy taking lives? I hope you never consider becoming a judge as a profession.

It's not any more irrational then enjoying a cigarette or a nice ice cream cone.

So, according to you, the guy down the street who killed his next-door-neighbor for his own personal amusement is just as irrational as the guy up the street who smokes cigarettes to relieve stress, but is completely harmless to others?

Use your common sense, FFS.

Enjoying murder is the same as enjoying everything else we do, but we as a people believe that murder is bad, and thus enjoying murder is bad.

No, enjoying murder represents a complete lack of sanity. If you feel the urge to walk up to someone and slit their throat, then you are not showing a "soundness of reason", which is a definition for "sanity". Smoking a cigarette is foolish, but also a common error amongst humans. It is a frequent activity due to its tendency to relieve stress. Committing murder for one's personal enjoyment represents nothing more than a complete lack of mental health.

Are you implying that some of my friends are just as insane as the Joker due to their smoking habits?

As a society we enjoy many things that are irrational. Smoking for instance. People enjoy an activity that hurts their body. That's irrational. Are smokers crazy now?

Trying a cigarette, in of itself, is a "crazy" act to follow. Why would you want to try a cigarette? Many people begin to smoke because they are persuaded to do so by their friends, or they simply want to "fit in" with others. There are many excuses as to why people develop smoking habits; there is no excuse for enjoying the act of committing murder, other than being mentally deranged.

Which is what the Joker is.

I disagree that being morally inept makes you not sound of mind. A morally inept person could still quite easily read a book, go to work, cook food, provide for themselves, and hold a steady job. None of those seem to indicate that one is not sound of mind.

Here is a definition of the word "mind":

The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination.

If you are not "sound of mind", then you show a misguided route of thought, a misguided perception and misguided ways of reacting to emotions. The Joker exhibits all of these attributes. He reacts to things in deranging ways, due to the fact that he isn't "sound of mind".

The Joker is still able to read and tie shoe-laces, but that is simply relating to common intellect. You say that the guy who raped his daughter is "insane", and I bet dollars to dingle-berries that he knew how to read, cook, go to work and hold a steady job.

I take that he was "sound of mind"?

There is a difference between using your brain to read a book, and following your conscience to react to a situation...

Well, no I don't. Action Heroes in movies do things like that all the time and we as an audience never assume that they're crazy.

Oh my God...you're worse than The Guard.

A man who displays complete senselessness is, according to the dictionary, "insane". What you fail to see here, is that the Joker displays complete senselessness, which means that he performed an act of insanity, because while Batman was trying to his hardest to thwart the Joker; the Joker was simply sat there making a mockery out of the situation.

The Batman responded to the Joker's antics by saying: "You're insane."

According to Batman, the Joker's actions were that of an insane mind...

For one, the Joker didn't fly the plain with the idea that Batman would be on it. So I don't think it's senseless for him to be flying a plane.

My God, and when did I ever imply as much?

He was fighting off Batman because Batman attacked him, so I don't think it's senseless that he's defending himself.

And yet, his actions suggest otherwise. While any rational man would be fearing for their life; the Joker was making fun of the situation. What kind of sane person, who is anything but senseless, does this?

And that he made a joke about it shows that he has a quick wit.

He made "a joke" about it? I suggest you read the sequence again. The guy spends the entire battle joking about it...

He is clearly senseless, and maybe that's what Batman was referring to when he said: "You're insane"?

In short, that situation does not, in any way, show that Joker is insane.

In short; Batman disagrees with you.

The definition of insane? The same definition as yours, I just interpret it differently.

1 .not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged. 2.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally derangedIf you're mentally deranged, then your mental state is thrown in disarray. If your mind is in disarray, and your mind is the thing that perceives the world around you, then your responses to the world around you will also be in a disarray.

And yet the word "deranged" is synonymous with "insane", and the word "insane" has many syonyms that are synonymous with the Joker's personality.

Dodge this fact all you like, but the evidence is stacked up against you.

Enjoying killing does not mean your mind is in disarray.

No, it means your mind is in a state of irrationality and immoderation. Your selective choices to describe the stage of "insanity" does not remove the synonyms that prove that the Joker is insane from the equation.

Your mind doesn't have to be in disorder to enjoy killing. It means that you don't feel bad about killing.

Which, in of itself, shows a complete lack of "soundness of mind"!

You're arguing in circles. Killing people for your own personal enjoyment is completely and utterly "absurd", which is a synonym for "insane". I'd love to know what synonyms you use to describe the act of murder, so, by all means, fire away. I'm all ears.

Which means that you either don't subscribe to societies meaning of right and wrong, or you never learned it.

Right, so now you are implying that one cannot determine whether killing a person is right and wrong without the examination of society's meaning of "right and wrong"?

Have you ever heard of a "conscience"? All humans are born with it, you know...

That's fine. And in many stories, the Joker does fit the bill of an insane man. Heck, in most stories I'd say. But in some, Joker comes off like a Sociopath that doesn't want his game to end, so he pretends to be insane.

It's good to see that those stories aren't used to define the character, eh?

I mean, it's not like Heath Ledger wasn't given a copy of "The Killing Joke" to understand the character, was it?

And telling me the slogan for a book means nothing. That's advertising to sell a comic, it means nothing to me.

But it provides us with a very important fact. Dodge it all you like.

Advertising agents can have movies and books proclaimed "the best this year," or "the most stunning piece of literature ever written." They're just catchy statements that get you to buy the product, nothing more.

Oh, yeah -- and the content of the book completely disproves the slogan, doesn't it? And I thought The Guard was the all-encompassing King of unreasonable logic...

That's perfectly fine of him.

But the Joker isn't insane, right? So who's wrong? You, or Alan Moore?

Oh I do. In many stories I think the Joker is both. I just think that in some he comes off more like a sociopath that is not insane.

But, according to you, the Joker just "pretends" to be insane, doesn't he? Which stories are they?

The Killing Joke, by any chance?

The definition for insane can also be

1.not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged. 2.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally deranged: insane actions; an insane asylum.
Now, where I got my definition for insane is this.
1.An insane person is someone who is mentally deranged.
2.Being mentally deranged means that your mental state is put in disarray or disorder.
3.Your mind is the thing the perceives the world around you, if your mind is in disarray, then the way you perceive the world is in disarray. It's out of order. In other words, an insane person views the world in a completely different way then we would.

So you're wrong, I did not assume what the definition of insane was.

Source?

Also, how does this disprove my definitions of insane? But, you're not saying that the Joker isn't insane are you? You're just saying that he's not insane in certain stories, right? This has been your argument all along, hasn't it?

We can't forget that the Joker just "pretends" to be insane, now, can we?

For one, Barbara wasn't dead.

Oh my God! That makes the act so much more better and rational, doesn't it?

And also, in TKJ we have no idea if the Joker actually enjoyed what he was doing or not.

And yet, there he is, making a mockery out of the situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Joker make a joke about shooting Barbara, all while pouring a glass of champaign with a big, greasy smirk on his face?

I'd say that he was pretty much enjoying it. Or, then again, he may have been "pretending", right?

The only reason he provided for doing the things he did was to make a point, not for his enjoyment.

But that doesn't mean that he didn't enjoy it, now. Again; correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Joker singing a song for Gordon while he was glaring at the pictures of his dying daughter?

If you think that the Joker didn't enjoy attempting to drive Gordon insane, then you have totally and utterly misunderstood the entire characterization. What have you possible seen in the book that leads you do the conclusion that the Joker isn't enjoying what he is doing?

Aren't evil people supposed to enjoy doing evil things? According to you, that's a completely rational thing to do, right?

Well, you're wrong in the fact that all the dictionary describes insane as, since I just posted a definition from another dictionary website that defined insane in the terms I said above. And as I showed above, I am not assuming what these words mean.

- http://www.answers.com/insane
- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insane
- http://www.thefreedictionary.com/insane

Okay, that's three online dictionary websites that use the synonyms I posted to describe the word "insane".

The Joker is obviously insane. The three dictionary websites I posted prove that.

I never implied that. I implied that the Joker carried out all his actions in TKJ knowing full well that what he was doing was wrong.

But hey, that completely renders him "sane", right? Despite the fact that his actions were that of an insane person...

He didn't need to try to justify it with deranged logic such as the murderous husband. He knew the way he went about making his point was wrong and he did it anyway.

But he still enjoyed it! Like I said before, the guy who raped his daughter probably knew that what he was doing was wrong, but that rationality was completely outweighed by insanity.

Go figure.

The man you mentioned had a distorted view of right and wrong. Joker knows full well what he's doing is wrong, but does it anyways.

That's just the thing; the guy KNEW that what he was doing was wrong, because he had never committed a crime before in his entire life. What he did was an emotional reaction to a situation. He performed an act of true insanity. When is this going to click, eh?

I know, but that doesn't relate at all to the argument. The man was insane because his view of the world was distorted. He used distorted logic to try and justify his actions.

He not ONCE tried to justify them; he simply gave REASONING for his actions.

Round and round we go...

The Joker doesn't try to justify his actions. He knows he's doing the wrong thing and does it anyways, as I said above.

And just like the guy who you labeled "insane"; the Joker never tries to justify his actions -- he simply gives them reasoning.

Go figure.

Because in that story, they wanted the Joker to be insane.

FINALLY!

And because the word insane is much more well known then sociopathy

Well, if there is such a big difference between the two as you are making out, then don't you think that Alan Moore would have used the correct terminology to describe the Joker's state of mind?

so using the word insane is better marketing technique.

Denial.

That's all I can say.

I'm not debating that. As I said above, in many stories the Joker is portrayed as insane.

But he's only "pretending", right? To escape the gas chamber, remember?

I know that the Joker is both, and I agree with you. I'm just saying in some stories he is portrayed more as one or the other.

But some stories are greater at defining the greater, truly.

"The Killing Joke" and "Arkham Asylum" are two of them. I'm glad you agree that the Joker is renowned for being "insane".

In some stories. Yet in other stories the Joker offers no reason to why he does his deeds, and seems to know full well that what he is doing is wrong.

How smart of you to try and move away from "The Killing Joke"...

I agree, in some stories he is.

Goody!

I suppose that depends on your definition of "sound mind". I think a person that can orchestrate some of the schemes Joker carries out must be of sound mind. I don't know how you could if you weren't. I define insane as having a distorted mind, in some events the Joker seems to have a very well functioning mind, but he enjoys to kill people. As I've said before, I do not think that is insane.

However, I do think in many stories the Joker appears to be insane.

Hey, I'm simply going by the dictionary definitions...

 

[ronny]

But why in God's name did Joker have to prove a point? No one forced him to do that. He did that out of his own free will. He attempted to drive Gordon insane because that's kind of stuff that gets him off. Why? Because the guy is totally nuts!

I don't know, in The Killing Joke we saw a side of the character that could almost be considered pitiable. He, in that state of mind, had a nihilistic view on the human race and even experienced a moment of clarity. He realised what he was and that it was too late to save him. In fact, his reaction to Batman's concern was almost one of grattitude.
No, I really don't think he's insane in The Killing Joke.
Misery loves company, that's what you've got to remember.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Right, so it's "rational" to enjoy taking lives? I hope you never consider becoming a judge as a profession.


So, according to you, the guy down the street who killed his next-door-neighbor for his own personal amusement is just as irrational as the guy up the street who smokes cigarettes to relieve stress, but is completely harmless to others?

Use your common sense, FFS.

No, enjoying murder represents a complete lack of sanity. If you feel the urge to walk up to someone and slit their throat, then you are not showing a "soundness of reason", which is a definition for "sanity". Smoking a cigarette is foolish, but also a common error amongst humans. It is a frequent activity due to its tendency to relieve stress. Committing murder for one's personal enjoyment represents nothing more than a complete lack of mental health.

Are you implying that some of my friends are just as insane as the Joker due to their smoking habits?

So, by your logic, as long as a sociopath kills for a reason, like to relieve stress, then it's not insanity?

Why does enjoying murder mean that someone is insane? How is it irrational? Only because it doesn't make sense to you? Well, let's say killing people takes away one's stress, does that make it less irrational?

A person enjoys something. The act of enjoying something is not crazy. A person enjoys something that is against our moral sense. That only means he does not agree with our morals. It does not make him insane. Disagreeing with morals is not irrational, it just goes against what we choose to believe. It's like saying a Christian thinks a Jew is irrational because of religious disbeliefs. They simply believe different things.

And you should hope that a Judge follows some of my reasoning, or else every murderer would go to an insane Asylum, with the chance of being let out, instead of a prison.

Trying a cigarette, in of itself, is a "crazy" act to follow. Why would you want to try a cigarette? Many people begin to smoke because they are persuaded to do so by their friends, or they simply want to "fit in" with others. There are many excuses as to why people develop smoking habits; there is no excuse for enjoying the act of committing murder, other than being mentally deranged.

Which is what the Joker is.

Well, if someone said that killing others reduced stress, that would be an excuse wouldn't it?

Here is a definition of the word "mind":

The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination.

If you are not "sound of mind", then you show a misguided route of thought, a misguided perception and misguided ways of reacting to emotions. The Joker exhibits all of these attributes. He reacts to things in deranging ways, due to the fact that he isn't "sound of mind".

The Joker is still able to read and tie shoe-laces, but that is simply relating to common intellect. You say that the guy who raped his daughter is "insane", and I bet dollars to dingle-berries that he knew how to read, cook, go to work and hold a steady job.

Okay, question. If the Joker perceives the world the way we do, has emotions just as we do, has a memory as we do, and has an imagination as we do, then he's of sound mind isn't he? He just uses that mind to kill people, and he doesn't feel bad about it. That's not insane, that's sociopathic.

Oh my God...you're worse than The Guard.

A man who displays complete senselessness is, according to the dictionary, "insane". What you fail to see here, is that the Joker displays complete senselessness, which means that he performed an act of insanity, because while Batman was trying to his hardest to thwart the Joker; the Joker was simply sat there making a mockery out of the situation.

You still didn't answer my statement. Action heros do the exact same thing the Joker did in that situation all the time. Heck, look at Indiana Jones or Spider-man, they routinely make wisecracks in life threatening situations. I don't see what's crazy about that.

The Batman responded to the Joker's antics by saying: "You're insane."

According to Batman, the Joker's actions were that of an insane mind...


My God, and when did I ever imply as much?

Batman thinks Joker's insane, I get that. I don't see the point of it.

And yet, his actions suggest otherwise. While any rational man would be fearing for their life; the Joker was making fun of the situation. What kind of sane person, who is anything but senseless, does this?

As I said before, ACTION HEROES DO THIS ALL THE TIME. Spider-man routinely makes fun of the life threating situations he's in. Is he crazy now to?

And yet the word "deranged" is synonymous with "insane", and the word "insane" has many syonyms that are synonymous with the Joker's personality.

Dodge this fact all you like, but the evidence is stacked up against you.

No, it means your mind is in a state of irrationality and immoderation. Your selective choices to describe the stage of "insanity" does not remove the synonyms that prove that the Joker is insane from the equation.

I don't need to doge it, I've said before that I agree with you. In many stories I do believe the Joker is portrayed as insane, I believe I've said this before.

Which, in of itself, shows a complete lack of "soundness of mind"!

You're arguing in circles. Killing people for your own personal enjoyment is completely and utterly "absurd", which is a synonym for "insane". I'd love to know what synonyms you use to describe the act of murder, so, by all means, fire away. I'm all ears.

Why is it soundless of a person to enjoy killing? We may think it's wrong yes, evil? Definitely. but insane? I wouldn't say so. I wouldn't say a person's mind is in disarray because they enjoy killing. It shows they don't subscribe to our morals.

Right, so now you are implying that one cannot determine whether killing a person is right and wrong without the examination of society's meaning of "right and wrong"?

I've never said anything about right or wrong. I've only said that Joker doesn't subscribe to societies definition of right and wrong. I think the Joker is wrong. He knows that society thinks he's wrong but he doesn't care, or doesn't agree.

Have you ever heard of a "conscience"? All humans are born with it, you know...

Wrong. There have been documented cases of children born into normal families who for no reason are sociopaths. They display no moral boundaries and usually end up as murders.

It's good to see that those stories aren't used to define the character, eh?

I've told you many times I don't disagree with your version of the Joker, I don't see why you're getting angry about it. Besides, as you've said before, you can always turn a blind eye to my interpretation of the character.

I mean, it's not like Heath Ledger wasn't given a copy of "The Killing Joke" to understand the character, was it?

I wouldn't certainly hope he was, it's one of my favorite comics.

But it provides us with a very important fact. Dodge it all you like.

Weren't you the one that told me the only "facts" we could have about the character were the things that the creators of the said character say?

But the Joker isn't insane, right? So who's wrong? You, or Alan Moore?

I've said multiple times that in many stories the Joker is presented as an insane character. I don't disagree with you. And no one has to be right or wrong, in your own words "each interpretation of the character is valid."

But, according to you, the Joker just "pretends" to be insane, doesn't he? Which stories are they?

Well, the one where Jason Todd makes the statement similar to the one I'm making is a start. And I've said I think the TAS Joker fits this profile as well. I also wondered about it in the arc where the lawyer tries to get Joker thrown in jail (to face the death penalty I think?) because they thought he was only pretending.

Source?

Www. Dictionary.com

Also, how does this disprove my definitions of insane? But, you're not saying that the Joker isn't insane are you? You're just saying that he's not insane in certain stories, right? This has been your argument all along, hasn't it?

It doesn't. You said the definition of insane was only what you typed. I said you were wrong, that definition of insane can also include what I typed.

And yes, in certain stories I said he seems to act more towards a person who is inheritantly evil and pretends to be insane rather then an insane person.



---I'll finish the rest of this tomorrow, I have to get off the computer.

 

[Figs]

I'm sorry guys LOL.

Infinity...Mr. Superhero...I think due to the length of this argument...the argument is in fact insane!

 

[BatSpider]

I'm sorry guys LOL.

Infinity...Mr. Superhero...I think due to the length of this argument...the argument is in fact insane!

FINALLY!

 

[CaptainClown]

I love this thread

 

[The Joker]

I'm sorry guys LOL.

Infinity...Mr. Superhero...I think due to the length of this argument...the argument is in fact insane!

True.

But this thread just would not be the same without these huge, long, drawn out debates made with posts chopped up into thousands of tiny segments

 

[CaptainClown]

True.

But this thread just would not be the same without these huge, long, drawn out debates made with posts chopped up into thousands of tiny segments

There are some great debates and points about the Joker that have sprung up because of this thread. Also even more so crap

 

[Figs]

True.

But this thread just would not be the same without these huge, long, drawn out debates made with posts chopped up into thousands of tiny segments

The thing that's amazing is, for how long this debate/argument has been going on, they haven't gotten to the point of flaming each other.

I salute both of them for that.

I came on here while eating dinner and saw how long those last two responses were and almost started choking on my food lol.

 

[BatSpider]

The thing that's amazing is, for how long this debate/argument has been going on, they haven't gotten to the point of flaming each other.

I salute both of them for that.

I came on here while eating dinner and saw how long those last two responses were and almost started choking on my food lol.

TEOL t:

Thay are very strong speakers!

 

[The Guard]

I think people are still confusing "sane" with "normal" or "non deviant". Clearly The Joker's exploits are not remotely normal and are very deviant. I won't begin to argue that. But I don't think that just because his actions are incredibly deviant, that this is enough to declare him insane.

but if you mean insane as in the kind of terminology a psychologist would apply then i believe that yes, the joker, as generally characterized, posses one or more of the specific mental illnesses that would have fallen under this definition. the problem with using insanity in this context, it is nearly archaic, as most doctors prefer to diagnose the specific mental defect or condition (schizophrenia, psychopathy, narcissistic personality disorder etc...). i believe the joker, at various times, has possesed all of the previously mentioned psychopathologies in his characterization. and i have never read a joker story where he is not, at the very least a psychopath. has anyone?

So what specifically makes him a psychopath? When has The Joker displayed shizophrenia?

The Joker is insane. To the public he is. To attorneys, cops, judges, everyday normal people in the modern and moral Gotham City. Just because he knows what he is doing does not deflect the fact that he is insane. The innocent people murdered at his hands will attest to it. Now The Joker to himself, is not insane. Actually he hates it when he is called insane. He detests the word in BTAS and many of the comics. Insane is not his style, TO HIS POINT OF VIEW. That is because he is not an attorney, cop, judge, everyday normal person in the modern and moral Gotham City. He is a mass murderer with no empathy and believes in what he does, whole heartedly. To argue about his insanity is feckless. Now to argue if he is insane based on the social standards and morals of his community would be one way to start. But considering that everyone, including the Joker, has a different point of view on the word insanity, WHY THE **** would you argue this point. To conclude, based on the social standards and morals of Gotham City, the Joker is nucking futs. But to the Joker, its just another day, it does not phase him. It is his definition of SANE.

This assumes that one can simply label someone based on one's actions. I've never subscribed to that theory. Remember, some of the things we take for granted now were once considered "insane" or signs of a "severe mental disorder".

But you must be inherently insane to even consider doing some of the stuff that Joker does.

Maybe. Or maybe society just ASSUMES you must be, and labels you based on your actions.

Please, name these people, because I guarantee that they killed due to being either corrupt by power, or for some kind of material possession. The Joker is completely different in the sense that he doesn't kill for any material possessions -- he kills for his own personal amusement. What's the difference between the Joker before the chemical bath, and the Joker after the chemical?

I don't have to name them. There are lists devoted to them. Google "The most evil men and women in history". Look at the lists people have come up with. Very few of these people can be considered insane.
You're going to have to explain to me how the "power" thing doesn't apply to what The Joker does as well, and how he doesn't derive material pleasure from what he does. And he most certainly did kill for material things at one point, and still does from time to time. What's the difference before the chemical bath? He isn't out to get revenge on humanity or Batman. And he's not "acting out" as much.

Why is the Joker more "evil" after his accident at the chemical factory? Because he was driven insane, just as the Joker points out in TKJ. His evil stemmed from his own insanity, and that's what he tried to rub off on Gordon, obviously.

His evil stemmed from his own insanity. My god that's a shallow approach to potential characterization. That makes The Joker no more or less than the average "mad scientist" archetype, only now he has a gimmick. Not interested in that since I was about 8, and The Joker stopped being "just another villain".

The day I enjoy picking up a knife and stabbing people; the day I take pictures of a dying person and show those pictures to that dying person's parents; is the day that I develop a "mentally deranged" view on the world. And I haven't even elaborated on the other dictionary definitions yet, so reply at your own peril...

Well, my friend, you certainly wouldn't be normal, but you simply cannot say beyond a shadow of a doubt that because your actions were such, that you were insane. Society might see fit to label you insane because they are uncomfortable with the extent of your deviance, but I don't think you could prove you were without a careful study of your motivations, actual mental faculties, etc.

You can call it what you like; it's a synonym for "insane", and you're the one claiming that he isn't insane.

A lot of words are synonyms for insane. A lot of them are buzzwords and labels. They don't all hold water when applied to a person's overall mental state.

And he is senseless in the sense that he doesn't give a crap about his own personal well-being.

This is called apathy and a lack of self-preservation. It is not, in itself, a sign of insanity.

He is completely out-of-touch with rationality to the point where if you spike him with fear gas, he will just laugh in your face.

Already explained this. He's simply immune to mood altering substances.

He is totally senseless to the point where he shows no regard for others.

This is called apathy. It is not, in itself, a sign of insanity.

He shows no regard for rationality. He shows no regard for anything other than creating chaos.

This is called irrationality, and he is not, mind you, always irrational. It is not, in itself, a sign of insanity.
So he wants to create chaos. That is, again, not in itself a sign of insanity.

And I take it that's DC canon?

Actually I believe that it is.

The Joker may develop intelligent plans and what not, but the ultimate goal of that plan -- the meaning of that plan -- is usually to create something of pure insanity.

Pure insanity based on what?

The motives behind that plan are driven through the Joker's insanity.

Based on what.

And that insanity was developed after the Joker realized that he had permanently bleached skin. As he points out in TKJ, he had one bad day, but chose to "let go" and became totally nuts.

You just said "chose to let go". He chooses to be what he became. This is my point.

You keep saying that the Joker is in "control", yet his actions suggest otherwise, something you keep missing.

Elaborate, please.

Hell, even Batman attempts to "rehabilitate" the Joker at the end of TKJ; he offers him helf. He makes it perfectly clear that the Joker can seek help for his insanity, but the Joker refusis, because it is "too late" to make a man, who has craved as much chaos as he has, rational once again.

This has to do with rationality. Not whether or not The Joker is actually insane. The Joker doesn't want help. Tell me, is an alchoholic who doesn't want help insane? A sex addict who doesn't want help? A drug addict? No. They are merely irrational and obsessed with their particular joy in life.

He is outweighed by his own insanity -- his own mentally deranged view of the world.

A view he realizes is out of touch with most people. A view he chooses to embrace. Willingly.

AND TO ENJOY KILLING OF CAUSING PAIN, YOU MUST INHERENTLY BE MENTALLY DERANGED!!! YOU MUST INHERENTLY BE COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL!!!

Where is that written?

Good God...where you pull this belief from I do not know.

Humanity.

Exactly!! And what rational and sane person do you know who kills endlessly for their own personal pleasure?

I don't personally know any. That doesn't mean it's not possible for such a person to exist.

And what is the slogan for The Killing Joke, may I ask? Beyond evil there is insanity, beyond insanity there is Joker."

"Beyond" insanity.

Your argument has been all but destroyed.

Because of what one book says?

But you keep babbling on about how, secretly, the Joker is in complete control and could stop at anytime, yet his actions suggest otherwise, and this is what Batman has picked up on.

There is a difference between "Can't stop" and "Doesn't want to stop because of the perceived benefits".

Beyond insanity is the Joker, The Guard. I guess that simply makes him evil, right...?

It makes him something we call evil, yes. I would call it something more like extremely apathetic and narcissistic with a particular worldview.

Of coarse the Joker failed, because Gordon was strong enough and rational enough to stay within the realms of reality.

And when did The Joker ever "leave" reality?

"Every man has a breaking point", and Gordon's wasn't breached -- and hell, maybe Gordon would have gone insane if Batman hadn't have showed up.

Maybe. I doubt it.

Two-Face had one bad day, and was driven insane.

Hardly. Harvey Dent underwent a lifetime of abuse and disappointment in the system he fought for, repressed a large portion of his issues, and then became insane to the point where he could not control himself too much when chemicals ate through part of his brain.

The entire Joker characterization is based around the power of insanity; TKJ attempts to make us understand the reasons for why Joker does the things that he does. It isn't a story about how the Joker is simply "evil" -- it's about the chemical bath accident, and how the evil that he craves is driven through memories and one bad day, to which the Joker chose to drown out by falling out of touch with rationality and, ergo, was consumed with pure insanity.

I think "insanity" is used as a buzzword for a number of things. The power of something, to be sure, is what TKJ is based on...but insanity? No, I think TKJ strips insanity of much of its power in the end.

 

[The Guard]

There is nothing in the story to support your theorey. Especially when we see Joker on his own in his lair laughing to himself about how they'll soon give into him and give him the legal claim he desires. Then he stops and says to himself "What if they conspire against me and stop eating fish? What if they leave them in the sea?". Then he smiles and says "No, that would never work. The vegetarians would never go along with it. Besides, I could always use my toxin on cattle.....JOKER BURGERS!!!".

How is any of this actually insane? He's talking to himself, free associating about his plan, but how is any of this actually a demonstration of him being insane?

But you fail to see that the Joker is more than just your average "murderer". He's more than that. His motives are deeper. His mental state is on a completely different level. This guy performs crimes that would disturb even the likes of Alex DeLarge

He's on a different level, yes. That's because he's a comic book supervillain who has to be able to match wits with a man who may as well be a superhero. He has reappeared many, many times over the years, and been taken in almost every direction possible. Take his first few appearances into account, or just take a few of his appearances into account, and while he is grandiose, he's not so ridiculous a concept in context. It is The Joker's mythological status that makes us view him as something "ridiculously extraordinary" compared to most mass murderers. And he is, to be sure, he's very theatrical and fictional, but he's not so far off the true kinds of evil the world has to offer at his core.

1. Of sound mind; mentally healthy: "their protector, the strongest and sanest of them all" Pat Conroy.2. Having or showing sound judgment; reasonable.

I think you can argue that he has displayed this many times. Almost no one is this ALL THE TIME.

1. a. Of, exhibiting, or afflicted with insanity.
b. Characteristic of or associated with persons afflicted with insanity: an insane laugh; insane babbling.
c. Intended for use by such persons: an insane asylum.

Again, this is clearly the buzzword definition of the word. A relic, really, of our language, used for all manner of "evils".

2. Immoderate; wild: insane jealousy.

This simply isn't concrete enough to base a definition or concept on.

3. Very foolish; absurd: took insane risks behind the wheel.

Is everyone who is foolish or takes risks "insane"? Again, this is cleary a "buzzword" kind of a thing.

"She went out with him? She's insane!"

This sounds more like an accurate description of the Joker.

It sounds like a lot of people, really.

Is the Joker thinking straight? No.

How do you know?

The guy is totally nuts. To want to kill, endlessly -- to draw utmost amusement from putting guns to people's heads and blowing their brains out -- you must be mentally ill.

He is very deviant, to be sure. But there's usually a point behind his deviance. Being mentally ill doesn't equal being insane.

Seriously, what more do you need? The dictionary definitions support the notion that the Joker is mentally deranged, all unofficial sources claim the guy to be insane, and even the poster of TKJ points out the deep insanity within this Joker character.

Usually I need proof. I need a character who is not shown to be in control of himself and what he does.

That's true. THE KILLING JOKE and some of the mythology does use the word "insane" again and again. How about that? You know where my thoughts on The Joker's sanity started? All the Batman/Joker confrontations ending in Batman going "You're insane, Joker". It's just too simple to be true. Too "clean".

The Joker commits the crimes that he commits because he wants to.

So how can he truly be considered insane?

Anyone who enjoys killing is insane.

Where is this written? Anyone who enjoys killing might have some morality issues to deal with, but insanity?

But why in God's name did Joker have to prove a point? No one forced him to do that. He did that out of his own free will. He attempted to drive Gordon insane because that's kind of stuff that gets him off. Why? Because the guy is totally nuts! What else can you say?

Exactly. Why did The Joker bother to prove a point? Because there's obviously some kind of logical attempt behind it. He was trying to justify what he is to Batman. Because "you're insane" wasn't enough for Batman anymore. That's pretty much the entire point of The Killing Joke, and most people seem to miss it entirely. Going "mad", "breaking", insanity is not enough. People don't always just crack. Sometimes they crack because they want to.

Mr. Superhero, as has been pointed out, you seem to think that enjoying things most would consider "evil" outright makes one "insane". I don't know that this is the case.

This is not the face of a sane person who is totally in control:

Look at the face of a person having great sex. Same thing applies. You're using one image to prove a point. I don't think it can be proven. Does he look weird? Sure. Is he manic there? Sure. What about that picture proves that he is insane?

Just on a technical point: everyone who is insane is mentally ill, but not everyone who is mentally ill is insane. They are not synonyms.

In general, I agree with your point. Joker is insane, IMO. But my favourite quote on the matter is from Jason Todd in Under the Hodd, where he says (and I paraphrase from memory):
'Your secret, Joker, is that you are insane, just not as insane as you'd like us to believe; it makes it easier for you to justify the terrible things you've done.'

There it is.

Now, I'm not saying it's okay to enjoy killing. It's not, it's wrong. But that relates to morals, not sanity. We believe it is morally wrong to kill, so a person who enjoys killing is morally wrong, not insane.

Here we go.

That has nothing to do with my point. Yes that man is insane. His reasoning is skewed, and his sense of right and wrong is completely off.

I don't think that's enough to declare him insane. He may well just have been harboring some serious repressed ****. A sense of right and wrong and an immoral action does not make you insane.

"You see, it doesnt' matter if you catch me and send me back to the asylum....Gordon's been driven mad. I've proved my point.
I've demonstrated there's no difference between me and everyone else! All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy."

There it is again.

If the Joker sees the world through a completely different view, one that makes no sense and is not comprehensible to us, then he's crazy.

I have never seen proof that The Joker sees the world through a completely different view. Ever. He just has a different outlook on life.

But surely, the enjoyment of murder is considered "totally irrational"?

Look at the society we live in, and have lived in for centuries. Look at the way we as a people revel in and react to violence and shows of it. Tell me there's no basis for this to be considered a truth. Yes, it's irrational, or at least we SAY it is...

So, why isn't the slogan to "The Killing Joke" read as: "Beyond evil is sociopathy, beyond sociopathy is the Joker"?

Because "insanity" has become the buzzword for "behavior that is extremely deviant and beyond the norm".

The Joker may embrace the idea of people believing he is insane, and joke about it and its use to describe him, but it always seems to me like he is fully aware of the meaning behind it, and mocking the concept overall, and the implications of it. If The Joker has a viewpoint, I seriously doubt it allows him to buttonhole himself to a "label". I do not see The Joker believing that others could truly understand his behavior, when at the same time, he seems to believe his motivations are quite simple. And if we're honest, they are. There's nothing overtly complex or difficult to understand about them. And let's face it, there's often an all too obvious "point" behind what he does, despite the occassional writers attempt to say things like "The Joker's crimes only make sense to him". You can apply this to almost any Joker story ever. A few key stories:

-The Joker fakes being insane to get to where he can steal some money near Arkham.
-The Joker's framing of Burt Slade in the 70's was a clever trap for Batman.
-The ridiculous pranks he pulled near the end of NO MAN'S LAND were all a decoy, an excuse to isolate and murder Sarah Gordon.
-The Laughing Fish was a financial enterprise as well as a revenge response at being denied his boon.

But really, you can apply it to almost any story he's ever been involved in, including THE KILLING JOKE. There's always some logical reason behind what he does, even if Batman says there isn't.

The Joker strikes me as someone who is very self aware, who knows who he is, and who mocks the rest of us for not understanding the simplicity of it. I kind of like Captain Clown's explanation of The Joker being sane and insane at the same time. And I'll buy that insane as a synonym used to describe behavior that people do not fully understand might even apply. He may be "deemed" insane, but I think there's a definite kind of sanity there driving him.

I think The Joker is just so far from what we consider the "norm" that he has been dubbed insane, and few people ever thought beyond that. I think most writers who dub him this don't consider much of the psychology behind the character and his actions, they just made him "insane", because that's what he had always been.

 

[The Joker]

How is any of this actually insane? He's talking to himself, free associating about his plan, but how is any of this actually a demonstration of him being insane?

LOL! Did you read the dialogue? He's talking about legalizing Joker fish. Joker fish.

And that was a point I was making to Infinity999x, who was trying to claim that Joker's focus was on killing, rather than trying to get his Joker fish made legal.