The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[Snoo]

I don't see what the big deal is about spoiler tags. True...this is a spoiler forum, but there could be a few out there that don't want to be completely spoiled. Just as Keyser stated, it's showing courtesy and consideration to other posters.

Yes, that's how I see it, too. While I'm all for TDK spoilers, at first I didn't want to know *everything* there is to know because it could spoil the movie for me (speaking from past experience). I've read all of the Joker spoilers/rumours by now and there's no going back but maybe not knowing ALL of them would have been better.

It's a hard decision because I want to participate in the spoilers forum where most of the action and buzz is but that's tricky when I'm still on the fence about some spoilers ([blackout]like the Joker dressed up as a nurse, that's a neat bit I wish I didn't read[/blackout]).

I'm not on the fence anymore but I still like spoiler tags. IMO it's better to use them than spoiling a specific plot detail for someone.

Sorry for keeping this off-topic.

 

[bkey]

Theres not really anything on-topic about this thread anymore. Joker has make-up in TDK. We can all argue why we like/dislike this, or how joker is *supposed* to have permawhite skin, but at this point it really doesn't matter anymore.

 

[StylishHokie21]

Yes, that's how I see it, too. While I'm all for TDK spoilers, at first I didn't want to know *everything* there is to know because it could spoil the movie for me (speaking from past experience). I've read all of the Joker spoilers/rumours by now and there's no going back but maybe not knowing ALL of them would have been better.

It's a hard decision because I want to participate in the spoilers forum where most of the action and buzz is but that's tricky when I'm still on the fence about some spoilers ([blackout]like the Joker dressed up as a nurse, that's a neat bit I wish I didn't read[/blackout]).

I'm not on the fence anymore but I still like spoiler tags. IMO it's better to use them than spoiling a specific plot detail for someone.

Sorry for keeping this off-topic.

Great post!

You're not going off topic. This discussion has ended pretty much and this thread will be closed soon anyways.

 

[CaptainClown]

not if I have anything to say about it.

 

[Snoo]

Great post!

You're not going off topic. This discussion has ended pretty much and this thread will be closed soon anyways.

Thanks.

This thread has a life of its own, it'll outlive us all! It's amazing to read the very old posts for instance, in the past few weeks I've been going back to pages between 200 and 300 when some of the best discussion took place. It's interesting to read the posts that date before we got those leaked shots of Joker kicking Batman and others and all we had was the first pic of Heath's white face against a black background.

Sometimes I'd just randomly pick a page in this thread, dated several months back, to enjoy some of the old discussions. Neat. Overall it's a great thread that brought forth some of the most brilliant observations on Joker's psyche, personality, character traits, etc. I've saved LOTS of thought-provoking posts to my computer even.

 

[Saint]

Yes, that's how I see it, too. While I'm all for TDK spoilers, at first I didn't want to know *everything* there is to know because it could spoil the movie for me (speaking from past experience). I've read all of the Joker spoilers/rumours by now and there's no going back but maybe not knowing ALL of them would have been better.

It's a hard decision because I want to participate in the spoilers forum where most of the action and buzz is but that's tricky when I'm still on the fence about some spoilers ([blackout]like the Joker dressed up as a nurse, that's a neat bit I wish I didn't read[/blackout]).

I'm not on the fence anymore but I still like spoiler tags. IMO it's better to use them than spoiling a specific plot detail for someone.

Sorry for keeping this off-topic.

Yeah, no kidding. It's not like it's an inconvenience to use spoiler tags, so I don't understand why you wouldn't. Yes, it's the spoiler forum, so you're allowed to post spoilers, but it's just courteous to allow people some control over the degree to which they want to be spoiled.

 

[Mister J]

Overall it's a great thread that brought forth some of the most brilliant observations on Joker's psyche, personality, character traits, etc. I've saved LOTS of thought-provoking posts to my computer even.

Exactly. The discussion has transcended a simple query as to whether or not Joker wears make-up in the film to an exploration of the character's defining characteristics, traits, motivations, history and the like. Regardless of what side of the initial issue someone has fallen, this thread has had some very interesting and insightful points and I've enjoyed following it for a while.

For all of the allegedly cyclical, redundant and pointless nature of the posts here, what I find to be the most useless is the inevitable remark concerning ending these exchanges. This particular thread will be closed when it approaches 20,000 posts and another will likely be started in continuation, as it should if people wish to further discuss. Those who are disinterested in the matter should simply refrain from perpetuating it.

 

[ironwez20]

No, Michael Caine said that the Joker simply just never removes his makeup, so it "rots" on his face. It wasn't meant to imply any sort of permanent discoloration, or deformity. Just what it sounds like: he wears it, and it starts to flake off, and produces the appearance we see in most pictures.

what do u mean it rots on his face

 

[CaptainClown]

it probably means it stains his skin. He wore it so much it is like a kind of tattoo. Because of his neglect there would be more of an off white gray color that would eventually appear that he would probably touch up with more white make up.

 

[ronny]

And, again, I don't see how it ruins the Joker. I don't know what exactly is so demystifying about the chemical origin.

You know, I think I can put my finger on it. It's because The Joker is such an evil, almost Biblical level evil. Yet the whole reason he exists is due to an accident. And a stupid accident at that. It reduces him to the level of a human. Like a "You hurt me and now I'm crazy and deadset on making you suffer!"
It reduces his motive to revenge. This guy who paralysed a woman and then took pictures of her naked body to show to her father. The guy who shot a woman in a room full of babies. The guy who went on a sniping spree around Gotham and advertised his murders over the internet. The guy who poisoned a whole lot of boy scouts for no reason whatsoever. The reason he's like that is because he fell in a bunch of ****ing chemicals?
I hate it, I really hate it. Because it makes this inhuman element human.

 

[MadeManifest]

You know, I think I can put my finger on it. It's because The Joker is such an evil, almost Biblical level evil. Yet the whole reason he exists is due to an accident. And a stupid accident at that. It reduces him to the level of a human. Like a "You hurt me and now I'm crazy and deadset on making you suffer!"
It reduces his motive to revenge. This guy who paralysed a woman and then took pictures of her naked body to show to her father. The guy who shot a woman in a room full of babies. The guy who went on a sniping spree around Gotham and advertised his murders over the internet. The guy who poisoned a whole lot of boy scouts for no reason whatsoever. The reason he's like that is because he fell in a bunch of ****ing chemicals?
I hate it, I really hate it. Because it makes this inhuman element human.

In this movie, if what we've speculated and assumed is correct, the Joker is just some regular nutjob who got cut by the mob and decided to put some make-up on and become an anarchist.

In the comics, the Joker is a mysterious figure with multiple origin stories. The only thing that's consistent through all these stories is the chemical bath. The Joker was a mysterious figure before the chemical bath, but the chemical bath gave him his demonic clownish appearance. Ever since then, he's been nothing but a supernatural force, the whole "yin and yang" element personified in his never-ending battle with Batman.

 

[nickyg641]

You know, I think I can put my finger on it. It's because The Joker is such an evil, almost Biblical level evil. Yet the whole reason he exists is due to an accident.

Even Satan has an "origin".

And a stupid accident at that. It reduces him to the level of a human. Like a "You hurt me and now I'm crazy and deadset on making you suffer!"
It reduces his motive to revenge. This guy who paralysed a woman and then took pictures of her naked body to show to her father. The guy who shot a woman in a room full of babies. The guy who went on a sniping spree around Gotham and advertised his murders over the internet. The guy who poisoned a whole lot of boy scouts for no reason whatsoever.

The reason he's like that is because he fell in a bunch of ****ing chemicals?
I hate it, I really hate it. Because it makes this inhuman element human.

It isn't about revenge--at least, not if the story is done right. The chemical bath, if done right, is highly symbolic. A sort of twisted baptism. It's not about him regretting his accident therefore wanting revenge; it's quite the opposite. The Joker is one of the only villains that is thankful for the catalyst that made him what he is (on the outside, anyway).

It released the monster that was already in him. He was already a madman--he just didn't know it. The transformation made his outside reflect inside. It doesn't make him human, because I guess you could say he never really was one. Humanity was just shell, which the chemicals burnt away, revealing his inner self: twisted, sinister, mocking the world.

So it's not about revenge, because the Joker doesn't view it as a bad thing. He was freed by the accident, not imprisoned in a clown mask. He sees it as the Universe's way of telling him "This is who you are, this is your calling". The Universe assigned him to the role of chaos embodied, in much the same way that Wayne sees it as his calling to promote order.

It's like the Joker is transcending the bounds of humanity when he emerges from the chemicals, becoming something much more than a person. Except that, unlike Batman, the Joker's old life has been burnt away, his old self is dead. Unlike Bruce, the Joker can truly inhabit the symbol that he is, because there is nothing under the mask. There is no mask, phsycally and mentally. Just Joker.

 

[regwec]

Perfectly put, my poignant patrician of prose.

 

[nickyg641]

Perfectly put, my poignant patrician of prose.

Nice alliteration.

 

[regwec]

Nice car.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

It isn't about revenge--at least, not if the story is done right. The chemical bath, if done right, is highly symbolic. A sort of twisted baptism. It's not about him regretting his accident therefore wanting revenge; it's quite the opposite. The Joker is one of the only villains that is thankful for the catalyst that made him what he is (on the outside, anyway).

It released the monster that was already in him. He was already a madman--he just didn't know it. The transformation made his outside reflect inside. It doesn't make him human, because I guess you could say he never really was one. Humanity was just shell, which the chemicals burnt away, revealing his inner self: twisted, sinister, mocking the world.

So it's not about revenge, because the Joker doesn't view it as a bad thing. He was freed by the accident, not imprisoned in a clown mask. He sees it as the Universe's way of telling him "This is who you are, this is your calling". The Universe assigned him to the role of chaos embodied, in much the same way that Wayne sees it as his calling to promote order.

It's like the Joker is transcending the bounds of humanity when he emerges from the chemicals, becoming something much more than a person. Except that, unlike Batman, the Joker's old life has been burnt away, his old self is dead. Unlike Bruce, the Joker can truly inhabit the symbol that he is, because there is nothing under the mask. There is no mask, phsycally and mentally. Just Joker.

Damn -- I wish I could see the artistic genius behind a man falling into a tub of random goo and returning with white skin and green hair. Basically, all you are saying is that the Joker was already a bit loopy, but the chemical bath sent him over the edge.

Well -- yeah. All it takes is one bad day, not necessarily a chemical bath...

 

[regwec]

Hahah! Mr. Superhero misses the point again.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Hahah! Mr. Superhero misses the point again.

I don't care. I will do everything in my power to deprive the chemical bath origin of its glory.

Even if it means that I am required to "miss the point".

 

[cjblair]

Even Satan has an "origin".


It isn't about revenge--at least, not if the story is done right. The chemical bath, if done right, is highly symbolic. A sort of twisted baptism. It's not about him regretting his accident therefore wanting revenge; it's quite the opposite. The Joker is one of the only villains that is thankful for the catalyst that made him what he is (on the outside, anyway).

It released the monster that was already in him. He was already a madman--he just didn't know it. The transformation made his outside reflect inside. It doesn't make him human, because I guess you could say he never really was one. Humanity was just shell, which the chemicals burnt away, revealing his inner self: twisted, sinister, mocking the world.

So it's not about revenge, because the Joker doesn't view it as a bad thing. He was freed by the accident, not imprisoned in a clown mask. He sees it as the Universe's way of telling him "This is who you are, this is your calling". The Universe assigned him to the role of chaos embodied, in much the same way that Wayne sees it as his calling to promote order.

It's like the Joker is transcending the bounds of humanity when he emerges from the chemicals, becoming something much more than a person. Except that, unlike Batman, the Joker's old life has been burnt away, his old self is dead. Unlike Bruce, the Joker can truly inhabit the symbol that he is, because there is nothing under the mask. There is no mask, phsycally and mentally. Just Joker.

You're just jealous you don't look as good in a purple suit, where does he get that pocket watch from?

 

[itsthebatman]

The chemical bath origin is so simple, so elegant, also a quintessential part of his story. To deny it's importance is like saying the bat flying through the window to give Bruce his inspiration is silly and unimportant.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

The chemical bath origin is so simple, so elegant, also a quintessential part of his story. To deny it's importance is like saying the bat flying through the window to give Bruce his inspiration is silly and unimportant.

...in your opinion.

To me, it's just a complete cop out. And an all-round s**t origin for such a brilliant characterization.

As for the rest; if that was true, then I should be implying that Bruce being attacked by bats is unimportant, despite the fact that I am not saying that at all.

 

[nickyg641]

Damn -- I wish I could see the artistic genius behind a man falling into a tub of random goo and returning with white skin and green hair. Basically, all you are saying is that the Joker was already a bit loopy, but the chemical bath sent him over the edge.

Well -- yeah. All it takes is one bad day, not necessarily a chemical bath...

I guess we all don't have the insight to see the brilliance and originality of drippy pancake makeup like you do, Mr. Superhero.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

I guess we all don't have the insight to see the brilliance and originality of drippy pancake makeup like you do, Mr. Superhero.

To me, that totally fits Nolan's version of the character. Here, I'll quote you:

"He sees it as the Universe's way of telling him "This is who you are, this is your calling".

And that's exactly what the cut smile did, and Joker responded by applying make-up -- he created his own image.

"Theatricality and deception are powerful agents. You must become more than just a man in the mind of your opponent."

This is a key theme in Nolan's films.

 

[itsthebatman]

...in your opinion.

Uh, yeah.

To me, it's just a complete cop out. And an all-round s**t origin for such a brilliant characterization.

It's not a cop-out. That implies they couldn't come up with something better. It's so simple, that's it's beauty. The 1951 origin occurs in about 3 or 4 panels - bang! Perfect and quick. The subsequent stories (TKJ and Images, haven't read Lovers and Madmen yet) expand on this notion, but can't beat the great comic-book origins of the original story.

As for the rest; if that was true, then I should be implying that Bruce being attacked by bats is unimportant, despite the fact that I am not saying that at all.

I didn't say you did. I said they were similar, in that removing either element from either origin would take out a fundamental and necessary part of the origin story.
....IMO, of course, just to be clear.

 

[itsthebatman]

To me, that totally fits Nolan's version of the character. Here, I'll quote you:

"He sees it as the Universe's way of telling him "This is who you are, this is your calling".

And that's exactly what the cut smile did, and Joker responded by applying make-up -- he created his own image.

All of this could equally apply to the comics origin of the Joker, and that origin is more original. He still creates his own image - he decides to take on the clown persona after the chemical bath, much as TDK Joker seems to take on that persona after a scarring incident.
So how is Nolan's version so much better? Because it's.... realistic?