The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[Keyser Soze]

"So when you find yourself locked onto an unpleasant train of thought, heading for the places in your past where the screaming is unbearable, remember there's always madness. Madness is the emergency exit."

Still not buying it, no?

If these guys are right (not saying they are, the argument certainly has merit, but I don't know where I stand on it), and The Joker's pretending to be crazy, of course he's going to SAY he's insane.

Finding quotes where The Joker talks about how mad he is therefore does nothing to disprove their point. If you want to gain ground in this argument, you'd be better served looking at The Joker's actions, not his words. Ask if anyone of sound mind could do some of the things he's done.

 

[The Joker_1000]

Insame? I think you mean "insane."

 

[The Guard]

"So when you find yourself locked onto an unpleasant train of thought, heading for the places in your past where the screaming is unbearable, remember there's always madness. Madness is the emergency exit."

Still don't buy it. The Joker is not speaking of literal madness as in "You don't know what you are doing and you cannot control yourself". Madness is used metaphorically here, and in most places where it comes into play in this context. He's speaking in terms of madness, of the strongest deviation from the social norm, being an "escape". I think he's perfectly sane here, too. He just recognizes the extent of his deviation.

Insanity is legally defined as not being able to distinguish right from wrong. The Joker, however, fully reconizes that what he does is wrong, but does it anyway.

There it is.

The Joker can very much discern right from wrong, and he's very much in control of himself. He has chosen many times whether to kill or whether not to kill. Add to that the degree to which The Joker has played the system over the years, repeatedly getting sent back to Arkham, clearly aware of why...I just don't buy that he's insane.

He can control himself. He just doesn't.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

If these guys are right (not saying they are, the argument certainly has merit, but I don't know where I stand on it), and The Joker's pretending to be crazy, of course he's going to SAY he's insane.

Finding quotes where The Joker talks about how mad he is therefore does nothing to disprove their point. If you want to gain ground in this argument, you'd be better served looking at The Joker's actions, not his words. Ask if anyone of sound mind could do some of the things he's done.

Jesus Christ.

So, you guys all think that the Joker is "sane"? Okay, first and foremost; let's take a look at some of the definitions of "insane":

Very foolish; absurd
Immoderate; wild
Complete disregard for an idea that makes total sense

Okay, that was fun. So, back to the question: we all think that the Joker is totally sane, now, do we? We think that the Joker's actions embody everything that a sane person would do?

So, the Joker shooting Barbara, stripping her down completely, taking pictures of her, and then showing those pictures to her father is the act of a "sane" person?

The Joker using the punchline of a joke to blow someone's head off is the act of a "sane" person?

The Joker basically laughing in the face of Scarecrow after he used the fear gas is the act of a "sane" person?

So none of Joker's action are totally "absurd"?

If you guys can honestly sit there and read stories such as A Death In The Family, The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum, and then come to the conclusion that the Joker is a totally sane person, then may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[BatSpider]

Insame? I think you mean "insane."

Oops

But seriously, I don't think he was insane, too clever for that

 

[The Guard]

Ask if anyone of sound mind could do some of the things he's done.

I think the answer is yes. Furthermore I believe it would take a very sound mind to plan and carry out half the things he's done.

 

[Infinity9999x]

"So when you find yourself locked onto an unpleasant train of thought, heading for the places in your past where the screaming is unbearable, remember there's always madness. Madness is the emergency exit."

Still not buying it, no?

See, that's the thing though. If someone knows they're crazy, then some say they aren't crazy. A "insane" person doesn't know they're insane. Like it was said above, insanity is defined as not knowing right from wrong. The Joker knows what he's doing is wrong, but does it anyways.

But then it could be argued that that Joker doesn't think that killing is wrong, because it adds to the chaos of the world, and that chaos is the only "right" way to respond to the universe. In which case he could be insane.

I think it all depends on the type of story you want to tell. If you want the Joker to seem even more a sadistic evil person, then you could make it appear that he only pretends to be insane when really he's just evil. Kind of how TAS portrayed him.

Then if you want him to be just an evil nutcase, you can have him be crazy. It all depends on how what works in your story.

 

[The Guard]

Jesus Christ.

So, you guys all think that the Joker is "sane"? Okay, first and foremost; let's take a look at some of the definitions of "insane"

Lets.

Very foolish; absurd
Immoderate; wild
Complete disregard for an idea that makes total sense

That's far, far too broad. That sounds like a seventeenth century diagnosis of insanity.

I prefer these:

Unsoundness of mind sufficient in the judgment of a civil court to render a person unfit to maintain a contractual or other legal relationship or to warrant commitment to a mental health facility.
b. In most criminal jurisdictions, a degree of mental malfunctioning sufficient to relieve the accused of legal responsibility for the act committed.

As these are the relevant definitions for the character in context.

Okay, that was fun. So, back to the question: we all think that the Joker is totally sane, now, do we? We think that the Joker's action embody everything that a sane person would do?

I don't know about "we all", but I do.

So, the Joker shooting Barbara, stripping her down completely, taking pictures of her, and then showing those pictures to her father is the act of a "sane" person?

You're confusing "sane" with "good".

The Joker does what he does to Barbara, not because he doesn't know any better, but to cause pain for her and Gordon. He does so with precision. It is clearly planned. With a clear outcome in mind...to drive Gordon to "break". He does so, creating a rather elaborate method of torture, as the story shows us, because he obviously believes people can "break", and wants to justify his actions by showing that everyone does when faced with trauma.

The Joker using the punchline of a joke to blow someone's head off is the act of a "sane" person?

How is him making a joke of the act relevant to whether he is insane or sane?

The Joker basically laughing in the face of Scarecrow after he used the fear gas is the act of a "sane" person?

Again, how is this relevant to his sanity or insanity?

So none of Joker's action are totally "absurd"?

Of course, a lot of the stuff he does is WAY out there, but hell, how many things are there that people do that can be described as absurd? That's just not a good enough benchmark for measuring insanity.

If you guys can honestly sit there and read stories such as A Death In The Family, The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum, and then come to the conclusion that the Joker is a totally sane person, then may God have mercy on your soul.

What, specifically, from these stories makes you believe he is insane?

 

[Keyser Soze]

Jesus Christ.

So, you guys all think that the Joker is "sane"? Okay, first and foremost; let's take a look at some of the definitions of "insane":

Very foolish; absurd
Immoderate; wild
Complete disregard for an idea that makes total sense

Okay, that was fun. So, back to the question: we all think that the Joker is totally sane, now, do we? We think that the Joker's action embody everything that a sane person would do?

So, the Joker shooting Barbara, stripping her down completely, taking pictures of her, and then showing those pictures to her father is the act of a "sane" person?

The Joker using the punchline of a joke to blow someone's head off is the act of a "sane" person?

The Joker basically laughing in the face of Scarecrow after he used the fear gas is the act of a "sane" person?

So none of Joker's action are totally "absurd"?

If you guys can honestly sit there and read stories such as A Death In The Family, The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum, and then come to the conclusion that the Joker is a totally sane person, then may God have mercy on your soul.

There are plenty of people out there in the real world who have killed innocent women and children, and took great pleasure in doing it. There is no doubt that these are evil people. But insane? Should we have them all declared insane, and prevent them from being tried for their crimes in a criminal court?

Again, I'm not saying The Joker is NOT crazy. But the line of thought of this theory goes, that The Joker is not insane. He is an evil, heartless, cold-blooded killer. Inside, he is cold, calculating, deadly serious. But he puts on this facade - the laughter, the clownish attire and tools, the crazy behaviour - so that when he gets caught, he can have his lawyers say to the judge, "Look, this man is clearly insane. It's obvious. Look at him! Look at what he does! No sane man could do that! Don't send him to the gas chamber. Send him to Arkham!"

 

[Mr. Superhero]

See, that's the thing though. If someone knows they're crazy, then some say they aren't crazy. A "insane" person doesn't know they're insane. Like it was said above, insanity is defined as not knowing right from wrong. The Joker knows what he's doing is wrong, but does it anyways.

But then it could be argued that that Joker doesn't think that killing is wrong, because it adds to the chaos of the world, and that chaos is the only "right" way to respond to the universe. In which case he could be insane.

I think it all depends on the type of story you want to tell. If you want the Joker to seem even more a sadistic evil person, then you could make it appear that he only pretends to be insane when really he's just evil. Kind of how TAS portrayed him.

Then if you want him to be just an evil nutcase, you can have him be crazy. It all depends on how what works in your story.

Well, to be perfectly frank, you can pull out those selective "definitions" until the cows come home, but I know for a fact that your average sane person would not knock on someone's door, shoot the person who opened the door, strip that person down, take pictures of them, laugh in their face while doing so, and show those pictures to that person's parents, who, by the way, has also been completely stripped down and led into a friggin' fun house.

But hey, I must have lower standards than you guys, right?

 

[BatSpider]

Chill out man

 

[Infinity9999x]

Well, to be perfectly frank, you can pull out those selective "definitions" until the cows come home, but I know for a fact that your average sane person would not knock on someone's door, shoot the person who opened the door, strip that person down, take pictures of them, laugh in their face while doing so, and show those pictures to that person's parents, who, by the way, has also been completely stripped down and led into a friggin' fun house.

But hey, I must have lower standards than you guys, right?

It depends on how you define insane and evil.

For instance, I think an insane person could be one who thinks he's a monkey and eats his own poo. But I don't think he's evil.

I think there are sane people who rape women and kill innocent bystanders for no other reason then they want their watch. But I don't think they're insane.

So in some stories I think Joker just comes off more as an evil person who wants to make a point. Then in other stories he just seems nuts. And then in some he seems like both.

 

[The Guard]

There are plenty of people out there in the real world who have killed innocent women and children, and took great pleasure in doing it. There is no doubt that these are evil people. But insane? Should we have them all declared insane, and prevent them from being tried for their crimes in a criminal court?

Agreed. Some of the things sane people are capable of...

Again, I'm not saying The Joker is NOT crazy. But the line of thought of this theory goes, that The Joker is not insane. He is an evil, heartless, cold-blooded killer. Inside, he is cold, calculating, deadly serious. But he puts on this facade - the laughter, the clownish attire and tools, the crazy behaviour - so that when he gets caught, he can have his lawyers say to the judge, "Look, this man is clearly insane. It's obvious. Look at him! Look at what he does! No sane man could do that! Don't send him to the gas chamber. Send him to Arkham!"

See, I don't think it's even about the lawyers. I just don't think he's insane.

Well, to be perfectly frank, you can pull out those selective "definitions" until the cows come home, but I know for a fact that your average sane person would not knock on someone's door, shoot the person who opened the door, strip that person down, take pictures of them, laugh in their face while doing so, and show those pictures to that person's parents, who, by the way, has also been completely stripped down and led into a friggin' fun house.

That's just it. Your "average" sane person. Does The Joker strike you as average? Again, one does not need to be insane to commit evil deeds.

You've got to have more than "He's evil, he deviates from the rest of society quite a bit, and he does horrible things" to prove that he's insane.

 

[BatoutofHell]

No, the Joker isn't insane. He knows exactly what he is doing, he chooses to do it, he doesn't just do it because his head is messed up on that level, he is just a really, really ****ing bad guy. That makes it so much more interesting, he isn't forced do any of that stuff, he wants to.

 

[BatSpider]

It depends on how you define insane and evil.

For instance, I think an insane person could be one who thinks he's a monkey and eats his own poo. But I don't think he's evil.

I think there are sane people who rape women and kill innocent bystanders for no other reason then they want their watch. But I don't think they're insane.

So in some stories I think Joker just comes off more as an evil person who wants to make a point. Then in other stories he just seems nuts. And then in some he seems like both.

I agree

 

[Franky4Fingers]

I can see both sides of the argument but I will say that anybody who kills another human being can't be totally right in the head.

 

[The Guard]

Someone mentioned rapists. I think The Joker is very much a rapist of sorts in the metaphorical sense.

No, the Joker isn't insane. He knows exactly what he is doing, he chooses to do it, he doesn't just do it because his head is messed up on that level, he is just a really, really ****ing bad guy. That makes it so much more interesting, he isn't forced do any of that stuff, he wants to.

It makes it more interesting AND more terrifying. It's one thing if a man has a horrible childhood, etc, and then becomes something like The Joker. It's quite another if a man has no real reason for doing something...and chooses to be that kind of a person.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Lets.

Very foolish; absurd
Immoderate; wild
Complete disregard for an idea that makes total sense

That's far, far too broad. That sounds like a seventeenth century diagnosis of insanity.

But it's a definition, nonetheless.

What have you got?

You're confusing "sane" with "good".

The Joker does what he does to Barbara, not because he doesn't know any better, but to cause pain for her and Gordon. He does so with precision. It is clearly planned. With a clear outcome in mind...to drive Gordon to "break". He does so, creating a rather elaborate method of torture, as the story shows us, because he obviously believes people can "break", and wants to justify his actions by showing that everyone does when faced with trauma.

And THAT action, in of itself, is that of a "deranged mind", which is, ironically enough, a definition for "insane".

But hey, he's just "evil", right? By no means insane...although, to embody evil, you must inherently be mentally deranged.

How is him making a joke of the act relevant to whether he is insane or sane?

BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING THAT AN INSANE PERSON WOULD DO!!!!!

It is totally absurd.

It is totally deranged.

It is friggin' INSANE. Hell, I'm not even sure whether Alex DeLarge could perform an act quite as brutal as that, and he was completely insane as it is...

Again, how is this relevant to his sanity or insanity?

Eh!?!?!?! It shows that the guy is completely senseless, which, ironically enough, is another definition of insane.

But hey, I take it that Joker not being affected by Scarecrow's fear gas simply shows that he is "evil", right?

Of course, a lot of the stuff he does is WAY out there, but hell, how many things are there that people do that can be described as absurd? That's just not a good enough benchmark for measuring insanity.

Hey, I'm simply going by the dictionary definitions.

Everything that the Joker does is absurd. It's not right. It's just...INSANE.

What, specifically, from these stories makes you believe he is insane?

The fact that he is always carrying out "mentally deranged" actions, which, ironically enough, is a definition for "insane".

If I take photos of a dying person, and then laugh in the face of that person, then, put it one way, I am not "sane".

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Keyser Soze]

You're cherrypicking, Mr. Superhero, and ignoring the posts which make the most convincing case for the "Joker isn't insane" camp.

 

[BatSpider]

You're cherrypicking, Mr. Superhero, and ignoring the posts which make the most convincing case for the "Joker isn't insane" camp.

Exactly what I was about to post

 

[Mr. Superhero]

You're cherrypicking, Mr. Superhero, and ignoring the posts which make the most convincing case for the "Joker isn't insane" camp.

HAHA...I take it The Guard isn't one of those people, then?

 

[BatSpider]

It depends on how you define insane and evil.

For instance, I think an insane person could be one who thinks he's a monkey and eats his own poo. But I don't think he's evil.

I think there are sane people who rape women and kill innocent bystanders for no other reason then they want their watch. But I don't think they're insane.

So in some stories I think Joker just comes off more as an evil person who wants to make a point. Then in other stories he just seems nuts. And then in some he seems like both.

Read this post Mr. Superhero!

 

[Keyser Soze]

If I take photos of a dying person, and then laugh in the face of that person, then, put it one way, I am not "sane".

Wouldn't you agree?

So, if I were to come round to your house, shoot your girlfriend, undress her, and take photos of her, laughing as she lay dying, then told you I was fully aware of my actions, and did this just to hurt you......you'd go to bat for me in court, and say I shouldn't get the death penalty, and I should get psychological counselling instead?

 

[Mr. Superhero]

It depends on how you define insane and evil.

For instance, I think an insane person could be one who thinks he's a monkey and eats his own poo. But I don't think he's evil.

I think there are sane people who rape women and kill innocent bystanders for no other reason then they want their watch. But I don't think they're insane.

So in some stories I think Joker just comes off more as an evil person who wants to make a point. Then in other stories he just seems nuts. And then in some he seems like both.

And yet to embody evil, don't you need to have a mentally deranged view on the world? To have an urge to kill and kill and kill you have to be totally deranged -- not just evil.

There's a difference between an Emperor killing for material pleasure, and a random clown killing for his own amusement.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

So, if I were to come round to your house, shoot your girlfriend, undress her, and take photos of her, laughing as she lay dying, then told you I was fully aware of my actions, and did this just to hurt you......you'd go to bat for me in court, and say I shouldn't get the death penalty, and I should get psychological counselling instead?

And what does Batman attempt to do throughout The Killing Joke?

He attempts to redeem the Joker. He attempts to sought counsel with the Joker. Why do you think that Batman has never pulled the plug on Joker, after everything he's done? It's partially because Batman knows that the Joker is just too f*****g insane to function. It's not his fault, really, because people like him have had to endure something that can drive a man insane.

I mean, what is the entire point of The Killing Joke? It's to show that it only takes one bad to day to drive a man to the brink of INSANITY. What is Joker trying to do to Gordon? Turn him evil, or turn him insane?