The Dark Knight I guess joker just applies make-up after all

[regwec]

Why do you think that Batman has never pulled the plug on Joker, after everything he's done? It's partially because Batman knows that the Joker is just too f*****g insane to function. It's not his fault, really, because people like him have had to endure something that can drive a man insane.

No it isn't. It's because Batman doesn't want to "cross the line" between crimefighter and vigilante/assassin. Debate of this sort appears in almost every Batman story in which The Joker appears, and lots where he doesn't.. Bruce Wayne is a highly introspective character. His mission is personal, and his code of behaviour is personal. He doesn't kill The Joker for what are effectively selfish motives. Witness Jason Todd's analysis of this at the conclusion of "Under the Hood", and note the Batman of Earth (?) who, having murdered The Joker, went on to assassinate every rogue in the DCU, becoming a piriah in the meantime.

 

[deathfromabove]

i would just like to point out something. everyone is arguing about insanity but there is a huge difference between the legal definition of insane and the psychological one...

here...

It is easy to believe that any rapist, murderer, pedophile, armed robber or violent criminal is insane. Obviously, they must have a few screws loose if they are able to maim and kill without remorse. Legal insanity, however, is much different from the psychological definition, and it is important for juries and even the general public to understand the distinction.

In order for a criminal to be punished for his or her crimes, the prosecutor must establish at trial that he or she possessed the mental capacity to justify intent. In other words, he or she set out to commit a crime, then followed through with it. Without intent, a crime is not considered a crime at all, though the perpetrator will likely serve time in a mental institution until physicians declare he or she capable of returning to society. This is the premise for legal insanity, which is very difficult to prove.

Although each state has its own definition of legal insanity, the main basis for this defense is fairly universal. In order to prove that a criminal was legally insane, the defense must establish that a mental disease or defect rendered him or her incapable of appreciating the nature and consequences of his or her actions.

For example, a murderer diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia might fit the definition of legal insanity if he committed his crime because the voices in his head convinced him that the victim was a threat to his life. The victim might not have presented any such threat, but because he genuinely believed it to be true, he can't be held responsible for his actions.

In many cases, legal insanity is determined as a result of a 730 exam, which is ordered by the courts. This examination, which is conducted by a state-appointed psychologist, can determine whether or not the defendant is capable of standing trial for his crimes, or to determine if an insanity defense has any merit in a court of law.
source...http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/546475/what_is_legal_insanity.html

is the joker nuts?

of course he is.

is he legally insane?

depending on the story and writer...sometimes. but often, by legal definition, he is sane. he knows what he is doing. remember, even charlie manson went to jail and i dont think anyone would call him mentally stable.

but to suggest that the joker is a completely sane man is, im sorry, a tough pill to swallow. he may grease the gears a bit by claiming "complete madness" but he is not what i would call sane by any clinical definition. insane is a really a broad term but i would probably say at the least that he has a psychopathology of some kind.

i really dont see how anyone can say he isnt portrayed as someone with some sort of mental disorder though.

again: legally insane?

maybe not.

but clinically sane?

you would be crazy to think that.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

No it isn't. It's because Batman doesn't want to "cross the line" between crimefighter and vigilante/assassin. Debate of this sort appears in almost every Batman story in which The Joker appears, and lots where he doesn't.. Bruce Wayne is a highly introspective character. His mission is personal, and his code of behaviour is personal. He doesn't kill The Joker for what are effectively selfish motives. Witness Jason Todd's analysis of this at the conclusion of "Under the Hood", and note the Batman of Earth (?) who, having murdered The Joker, went on to assassinate every rogue in the DCU, becoming a piriah in the meantime.

Maybe so, but the Joker is still f*****g insane.

 

[regwec]

Maybe, maybe not. The word is debased enough to be more or less meaningless.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

Maybe, maybe not. The word is debased enough to be more or less meaningless.

Just seems to me that the core roots of Joker's evil nature is driven through his own insanity, and that's what he tries to rub off on Gordon.

He tried to drive Gordon insane, and through that, Gordon will become angry and vengeful, which eventually leads to a dark place.

I mean, the Joker didn't become evil overnight -- he simply "let go", and relied on "madness" for the way out.

He just became insane. It's all in TKJ.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

By the way; who, here, has read "The Joker: Devil's Advocate"? I seem to remember the Joker being cleared of all murders due to being found for "not guilty by reason of insanity".

Also, the Wikipedia also recognizes that the Joker was driven "insane" by the chemical bath:
The Joker emerges from chemical-ridden water and goes insane in The Killing Joke.

Here's something else I found:
His mental state is completely unstable. He is highly insane and is a regular in Arkham Asylum. The Joker will at one time be mischievous and funny, but at other times be violent, brutal, and cruel. There seems to be no cure for the Joker’s insanity.

 

[Keyser Soze]

You're still dancing around the key issues being raised here, Mr. Superhero. It's pretty dancing, with lots of quotes and name-dropping. I'll call it a fandango.

 

[regwec]

But again, the definitions of "insane" are too broad. In a sense, I would contend that The Joker's advanced strategic intelligence probably indicate that he has full control over himself and his actions, which would preclude that label. At the same time, his flamboyant sadism, obsessive behaviour, narcism and nihilism mark him as mentally ill, or abnormal. But he is fully functional- his wikedness seems to be a kind of intellectual persuit- he certainly isn't dellusional.

Amongst Batman's rogues, the only figures who can safely be said to be "mad" are Dent and Stirk. Tetch is a possiblity, but could be said to be merely obsessive.

 

[deathfromabove]

But again, the definitions of "insane" are too broad. In a sense, I would contend that The Joker's advanced strategic intelligence probably indicate that he has full control over himself and his actions, which would preclude that label. At the same time, his flamboyant sadism, obsessive behaviour, narcism and nihilism mark him as mentally ill, or abnormal. But he is fully functional- his wikedness seems to be a kind of intellectual persuit- he certainly isn't dellusional.

Amongst Batman's rogues, the only figures who can safely be said to be "mad" are Dent and Stirk. Tetch is a possiblity, but could be said to be merely obsessive.

but again you are using the the definition of legal insanity as opposed to the broader psychological one, which is a general term that can be applied to many specific disorders.

 

[Keyser Soze]

But again, the definitions of "insane" are too broad. In a sense, I would contend that The Joker's advanced strategic intelligence probably indicate that he has full control over himself and his actions, which would preclude that label. At the same time, his flamboyant sadism, obsessive behaviour, narcism and nihilism mark him as mentally ill, or abnormal. But he is fully functional- his wikedness seems to be a kind of intellectual persuit- he certainly isn't dellusional.

Amongst Batman's rogues, the only figures who can safely be said to be "mad" are Dent and Stirk. Tetch is a possiblity, but could be said to be merely obsessive.

This is a good point. Of course, The Joker isn't right in the head. He takes pleasure in murder and mayhem. But if he's insane, then Lex Luthor's insane, Dr. Doom's insane, Robert Mugabe's insane, every serial killer, rapist and child molester in the world is insane. And yes, in a way, they're all screwed up in the head. But are they insane, in the legal sense? As in, not in control of their actions, totally unaware of the difference between right and wrong?

 

[The Shape]

Hate to admit it, but Mr. Superhero is right.

insane --
1. not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged.
2. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally deranged: insane actions; an insane asylum.
3. utterly senseless: an insane plan.

Synonyms 1. demented; lunatic, crazed, crazy; maniacal. 3. foolish, irrational. See MAD.


All of these things fit the Joker's profile perfectly. Yes, he's aware of what he's doing. He takes pleasure in muder and mayhem. He is a certified anarchist. However, his there's no true reason behind what he does. His actions are insane -- utterly senseless, irrational, and demented.

The Joker is a maniac, and what's the definition of a maniac? -- a raving or violently insane person; lunatic.

Don't look at it in a legal sense. Think of the broader definition.

 

[regwec]

Hate to admit it, but Mr. Superhero is right.

insane --
3. utterly senseless: an insane plan.

So, he's wrong, then.

 

[The Shape]

So, he's wrong, then.

The Joker has sense, but not in the rudimentary way that we do. His sense is twisted. He lives without logic or reason.

I'm not disagreeing with you. The Joker is more than definitely evil, but he can also be classified as insane.

 

[nickyg641]

Personally, I don't think the Joker is insane, not by the legal defenition. But is he sane? Certainly no. He's something else entirely, something that cannot really be classified. That's why I like the idea of Grant Morrison's "supersanity".

He's fully aware of what he's doing, he's fully aware of everything, and, because of this, he recognizes life's utter absurdity and futility.

There's a great quote from the book Red Dragon, that I can't quite remember word-for-word, about Lecter and his mental state. Will Graham says that Lecter's symptoms are not consistant with any psychological profile.

 

[BatSpider]

The Joker has sense, but not in the rudimentary way that we do. His sense is twisted. He lives without logic or reason.

I'm not disagreeing with you. The Joker is more than definitely evil, but he can also be classified as insane.

Not truly in the "insane" category IMO

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Nice. I remember I had the same discussion weeks or months ago in this thread. I was almost alone with my opinion that the Joker wasn't insane. Some people think like this "He kills people he is teh insane!" but then we could declare almost every criminal insane - because they do things a normal person wouldn't do. Well, I use to eat soap. This is not normal. But is this insanity? (No, I do not eat soap).

And I've said before: An insane person couldn't be the genius the Joker is.

 

[The Shape]

Personally, I don't think the Joker is insane, not by the legal defenition. But is he sane? Certainly no. He's something else entirely, something that cannot really be classified. That's why I like the idea of Grant Morrison's "supersanity".

He's fully aware of what he's doing, he's fully aware of everything, and, because of this, he recognizes life's utter absurdity and futility.

There's a great quote from the book Red Dragon, that I can't quite remember word-for-word, about Lecter and his mental state. Will Graham says that Lecter's symptoms are not consistant with any psychological profile.

But technically, if the Joker is not sane, as you say, that makes him insane. I agree that the Joker has much more going on in his head besides insanity, but it's definitely there.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

But technically, if the Joker is not sane, as you say, that makes him insane. I agree that the Joker has much more going on in his head besides insanity, but it's definitely there.

I usually describe the Joker as an eccentric sociopath. Bohemian, a lil' bit

 

[regwec]

I think he's a narcisist fist and foremost. He has other elements to his character, but that seems to dominate.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

I think he's a narcisist fist and foremost.

that is also an important aspect of the character. It's the style that the Ledger Joker seems to lack.

 

[CaptainClown]

that is also an important aspect of the character. It's the style that the Ledger Joker seems to lack.

Why is it important?

 

[regwec]

Because it's an important part of his character. Are you questioning why his character is important to his character?

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Why is it important?

Would you like to have James Bond look like a homeless prowler?

 

[CaptainClown]

Because it's an important part of his character. Are you questioning why his character is important to his character?

I am asking why narcissism is a necessary trait of the character

Would you like to have James Bond look like a homeless prowler?

James Bond is not the Joker

 

[regwec]

It's "necessary" because it is a major source of his motivations, actions, speech, dress, appearance, lifestyle and relationships with other characters.

And since when do we analyse characters by what about them is "necessary"? Nothing is "necessary" in entertainment- it is all recreational. But if you want to adapt a character from one medium to another, then the major traits do become fairly "necessary"- even more so if you plan to depart heavily from his appearance and origins.

You may as well ask if it "necessary" for Batman to be gloomy.