I re-watched "The Dark Knight" this weekend...

[Infinity9999x]

Chris you have a tremendous point. You are 100% correct, your post is the exact reason why I now ignore the fanboys points about the Spider-Man movies. I disagree with you about the X-films because I felt that too much was changed and not for the better, because the films didn't do anything for me but we see eye to eye about the first two Spider-Man flicks.

They other filmmakers who make these comic book movie's should not follow TDK because what worked for TDK will not work for these other characters. Also I prefer the first two Spidey films over TDK and Batman Begins but I don't think that the filmmakers should make every film like those flicks.

Personally, I liked Dunst and felt that her and Tobey actually had chemistry, so I don't bash her. But RD was an invented annoying childhood love interest and Bale didn't have chemistry with either of the actresses, so I couldn't look pass that fact. It is shocking how the fanboys ignore those little facts.

TDK is taken down a notch for me because I didn't truely care when she was killed off...among other things.

I think the reason more ppl b*tch about MJ then Rachel is because of the highlighted portion. MJ has a counterpart in the comics, and people expect her to be a certain way. Rachel had nothing, she was just invented, so when she's bad you just kind of write it off as an annoying producer/writer blunder.

When MJ's mad, people get ticked, because there are decades of literature that you can draw from to inspire her character. When you deliberately change her character to act in a way her comic counterpart doesn't, people get angrier, because there's no excuse for that blunder.

I do, however, think Rachel is the weakest part of both BB and TDK. She just was never a very interesting character.

I disagree about filmmakers not following TDK, because I think they should follow it's example, just not in the way most people mean. When I say I want other movies to follow TDK, I mean I want them to be true to the characterizations, spirit, and feeling of their characters, and be written with the intelligence that TDK was. I don't mean it needs to be darker or more serious, which some people think needs to happen.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

I don't think anybody really cared about the loss of Rachel; she just wasn't likeable.

Another matter of opinion, just as the rest of my post will surely be. Personally, I didn't jump on the whole "anti-Katie" bandwagon when BB was being made; in fact, I enjoyed her role in the story very much, and was hoping she'd return for DK. When Maggie took her place, I was disappointed, but I still enjoyed her version as well (I don't think Katie and Aaron would've had good screen chemistry). I understand that neither film was entirely about Rachel, but it was rather refreshing to see a woman in a high-profile, comic-based film that wasn't a terrified damsel. I felt the same way when MJ tried to attack Doc Ock in SM2.

 

[Red Mask]

I think Rachel served as a good arch-nemesis to the Scarecrow. But all in all, she's about as replaceable as a Bond girl. I doubt future Batman films will ever elevate them higher than that. And we'll probably see a trend of how Batman can't save his women.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I think Rachel served as a good arch-nemesis to the Scarecrow. But all in all, she's about as replaceable as a Bond girl. I doubt future Batman films will ever elevate them higher than that. And we'll probably see a trend of how Batman can't save his women.

Interesting but I hope not. We've already seen a trend of how Batman can't hold onto some women,

& how he can't save other ones b/c they don't want to be saved.

I'd rather see Selina come in & maybe be the one he can't figure out what to do with; whether he really wants to take her down or...just take her.

 

[TLH]

After repeat viewings and trying to look at the film more objectively (i.e., trying not to be blinded by hype and anticipation) I realize that TDK is not the masterpiece so many people on these forums make it out to be. It's one hell of an entertaining, polished, well-made film and definitely one of the year's best, but I don't see it being considered one of the greatest films ever made.

 

[roach]

they'll be saying the same thing about Watchmen...its a cycle and TDK is this cycle's point of interest

 

[Infinity9999x]

they'll be saying the same thing about Watchmen...its a cycle and TDK is this cycle's point of interest

I'm not so sure about that. My favorite superheros are Spider-man, Batman, and X-men. Now, I wasn't on the hype at the time the first two Spider-man movies, or first two X-men movies came out, but I keep hearing about how people held up both X2 and SM2 as the best of the genre at the time.

Me personally, I never felt that way about either movie. I outright disliked SM2 the first time I saw it (and I haven't been happy with Raimi for a while) and I thought X2 was good, but it was too short, and I would have liked some more screen time and character development for the other characters.

Now I don't think TDK was perfect, but I have never appreciated a superhero movie the way I did with TDK. I think it was the one movie that was most true to it's characters then any other Superhero movie. (Mainstream that is, I'm not including Sin City or 300). All the other superhero movies I've seen have not been as well produced, written, and had characterization problems that really bugged me, and I don't know if I'll see a superhero movie that gets as many things right as TDK did. I hope I do, but I doubt it.

Watchmen looks like it could be a major contender, however, I think it's biggest stepping stone is this. More people like Batman than Watchmen. Yes, Watchmen is a great story, but it's only one story, and it doesn't have the same appeal to many people that TDK has, because TDK was for many people finally seeing their favorite superhero character that they've grown up with done "right." You don't really have that feeling with Watchmen, because we didn't grow up watching cartoons on them, or getting each monthly issue about them.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I never even read it myself. I'm close to breaking down & doing so, but over the years it just never grabbed my attention. And like you said, the fact that it isn't really considered mainstream could limit its cinema audience to an extent; the fact that it's (presumably) not kid-friendly could do so even further. Your kids don't have Rorschach lunchboxes & underwear-and from what I understand, that's a good thing.

 

[Eggyman]

Chris, you are a genius. I am now in the market for some Rorschach inkblot underoos



Oh, and I was exactly the same about Watchmen. My mate for the longest time was telling me to read the damn thing, and I was all 'Meh, maybe one day.' I eventually read it and... WOW. Do yourself a favour, mate

 

[Octoberist]

that's why fanboys get a bad rap.

Really, I've never seen a group of people who are so black and white in their passion. They are so unforgiving too, ripping apart the Spider-Man movies. OMG.

Even with Iron Man's final fight scene, they blew it out proportion, citing that it 'sucked'. What? It wasn't bad at all. Where's my documentary on fanboys?

 

[Eggyman]

that's why fanboys get a bad rap.

What is?

Really, I've never seen a group of people who are so black and white in their passion. They are so unforgiving too, ripping apart the Spider-Man movies. OMG.

Tunnel vision, almost. Like The Matrix films, the first once hailed as a great SF movie, now slowly getting marred in the stigma of the second two. Just like Spidey; two great films, overshadowed by the bad reception of the third.

It's humans in general, I think. We find it much easier to concentrate on the negative, rather than embracing the positive side to a particular situation.

Even with Iron Man's final fight scene, they blew it out proportion, citing that it 'sucked'. What? It wasn't bad at all. Where's my documentary on fanboys?

I'll admit to not being very fond of IM's final fight, but it was OK - nothing to froth at the mouth about in either end of the spectrum.

 

[Octoberist]

the fanboy rap is that they obsessive people who are so extreme in their opinions. While there are level headed ones out there, for the most part, they are insane.

For example, fanboys of Dark Knight might dimiss a Tim Burton movie only because his Batman films, even though they ARE influential. Or they would be avid supporters of 'realism', thus dismissing anything 'fantastical'. Film is a visual medium, so they should hush up.

On the other hand, they shouldn't be ignored either.

 

[Eggyman]

the fanboy rap is that they obsessive people who are so extreme in their opinions. While there are level headed ones out there, for the most part, they are insane.

For example, fanboys of Dark Knight might dimiss a Tim Burton movie only because his Batman films, even though they ARE influential. Or they would be avid supporters of 'realism', thus dismissing anything 'fantastical'. Film is a visual medium, so they should hush up.

On the other hand, they shouldn't be ignored either.

I get ya, man. I never understood that about knocking the Burton films to make Nolan's even better by default. I'm a Batman fan first and foremost - why should I have to choose? Why can't I be allowed to enjoy both without being made to feel like I'm sitting on the fence? Why would anyone want to disregard something just because they like the other more?

I'll be fair and say that there will be the honest ones out there that honestly just didn't like the other options, but for every one of them, there must be five that are like a guy with a new girlfriend, putting her on a pedestal whilst knocking their ex down to the depths just so they can sleep easier at night knowing that they are currently with the better option.

Weird example, but do you get me?

 

[Gladiator]

I agree with Chris, TDK was a well made, entertaining movie but its not the best. It had its "wtf" moments. Batman has no super powers yet he can bend the barrel of a rifle like a coathanger? Or he and Rachel can fall from a penthouse, crushing a car yet neither are hurt? Most of the fanboys are idiots stuck on their narrow-minded views. They'll never be satisfied. Personally, I only have the basic knowledge of Batman's history, having read only a few comics. On the other hand, I began reading Spider-Man back in the mid '70's. So I know what Spider-Man is all about. After reading the posts in the SM forum, it seems that about 90% of the fanboys there get their SM knowledge from that crappy 90's animated series and want every bit of it translated to the silver screen. Or they think the only relevant villian SM has ever faced was Venom. They call Raimi a hack despite the franchise making a couple of billions of $ while they treat Nolan like the second coming of Christ. Or they act like they could direct a better movie when they probably have a hard time directing their piss into the toilet. Its pathetic but there's nothing anyone can do about it other than look past it.

 

[Eggyman]

I agree with Chris, TDK was a well made, entertaining movie but its not the best. It had its "wtf" moments. Batman has no super powers yet he can bend the barrel of a rifle like a coathanger? Or he and Rachel can fall from a penthouse, crushing a car yet neither are hurt?

He had a gas-pressured device on his glove when he bends the gun barrel; the film shows that quite clearly. I do gree about the skyscraper fall car smash bit though. It doesn't ruin the film for me, but I would've preferred lil more explanation seeing as we are dealing with a man without powers who, whichever way you swing it, is only wearing a protective suit... which would never be able to shelter the storm of such a fall.

 

[CFE]

Batman has no super powers yet he can bend the barrel of a rifle like a coathanger?

The Gauntlet on his forearm...it's how he both bent the gun barrel and ripped through the Scarecrow's van.

EDIT: Eggy got it before me, but yeah...lol

 

[Gladiator]

He had a gas-pressured device on his glove when he bends the gun barrel; the film shows that quite clearly. I do gree about the skyscraper fall car smash bit though. It doesn't ruin the film for me, but I would've preferred lil more explanation seeing as we are dealing with a man without powers who, whichever way you swing it, is only wearing a protective suit... which would never be able to shelter the storm of such a fall.

My bad. I didn't notice. I just remembered it being a quick scene of him grabbing and bending. I'll look closer the next time I watch it. Thanks for pointing that out.

I did see the device when he was tearing thru the van.

 

[Octoberist]

also, I thought that Batman's cape slow-down the fall onto the taxi.

 

[Eggyman]

also, I thought that Batman's cape slow-down the fall onto the taxi.

Possible. I had suspected that, but it never gave a clear impression of this with all the turning and flapping.

 

[Octoberist]

yeah. I think it wasn't clear enough.

I mean there's always suspending your disbelief (it's a fantasy movie after all) so I never really mind. In the script, he used his grappling hook I think. (they should have went with that)

 

[Infinity9999x]

What is?

Tunnel vision, almost. Like The Matrix films, the first once hailed as a great SF movie, now slowly getting marred in the stigma of the second two. Just like Spidey; two great films, overshadowed by the bad reception of the third.

It's humans in general, I think. We find it much easier to concentrate on the negative, rather than embracing the positive side to a particular situation.


I'll admit to not being very fond of IM's final fight, but it was OK - nothing to froth at the mouth about in either end of the spectrum.

See, I never thought the first two SM films were great. I thought the first was good, but I had a lot of problems with the second, and for a while, I couldn't decide which I disliked more, the second or the third.

However, I do agree that fans wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overreacted to SM3, some went as far to say that it was the worst comic movie ever made, and that's just ridiculous. It's not even close (and the same with X3). People can't separate quality from disappointment. X3 and SM3 would certainly deserve the title of some of the most disappointing comic movies, but they weren't anywhere close to the worst, and with most, that disappointment turned into bitter venom towards the movie.

And Chris, you're defintely right, Watchmen's market could be hindered by it's adult content in nature. However, you should definitely read it.

 

[Spider-Vader]

I didn't find Spidey 3 that disappointing the main thing was Venom dying without doing anything. Same problem with Two-Face in TDK.

 

[TLH]

I didn't find Spidey 3 that disappointing the main thing was Venom dying without doing anything. Same problem with Two-Face in TDK.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=312341

 

[Octoberist]

the thing is that Harvey Dent served a purpose to the story. He was like the third biggest character.

 

[dude stannis]

I've learned to ignore the fanboys. I can watch the movie objectively and enjoy it as a film that sits equally with Batman '89, Batman Returns and Batman Begins. But it does annoy me when people use TDK as the reason every movie ever from now on should be PG-13. As far as I'm concerned TDK pulled some major punches.