If Jean had come back totally 'good' in X3...

X-Maniac

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...then what would have happened?

We'd have a 'good Phoenix' who could save the entire team (having proved she could hold back or divert a large part of a wall of water, raise the plane and protect herself from death with a cocoon of telekinetic energy)...

But what then? What would be the conflict in the story, what threat would they face? She'd be reunited with Scott, she could save everyone with a thought... there'd be no need for the others to do anything... Where's the excitement and threat going to come in?

At what point would she become Dark Phoenix? How? What destruction would she cause (in realistic movieworld terms)? What would be her final fate - death, depowerment, what?

Your thoughts....
 
In my story...She comes back as the Good Phoenix in the beginning of her re-birth.. and at some point when something pisses her off, she goes Dark Phoenix but all the while, Jean is fighting it...

In terms of how and why she gets pissed off and becomes Dark Phoenix, I havn't gotten to that part yet.
 
X-Maniax said:
But what then? What would be the conflict in the story, what threat would they face?

The threat they would face would be the cure...
 
OK i would love to see Good Phoenix as she is good and Phoenix is good as well as bad.

But i think if they did that they should have done like a X3 and X4 back to back had the whole saga and not just the Dark one.
 
I am very glad you asked this question, because there is an excellent answer for you. This exact scenario has been explored rather beautifully and in elaborate detail in the novel "Grail", an alternate to X3 written by an author with the pen-name of "minisoonoo". She too wondered what it would be like if Jean came back totally good, and she whipped up quite a masterpiece:

Should you wish to read it, you can find it here:

http://www.themedicinewheel.net/grail/grail.html


In this version, The Phoenix is Jean after having had her mutation reach completion. Interrupted by her traumatic experience with her best friend's death, Jean's mutation completed when Jean was exposed to Magneto's machine and was fully manifested at the moment of her death. Her comeback is drawn out and complicated than it the movie, and involves her first accidentally taking on a wrong identity (she literally didn't know who she was and no longer had a body, so she picked a wrong body), but eventually all that's sorted out and Jean is brought back home and given a tearful, heartfelt reunion by all her friends and family and students.
She's the good Jean, she's fully in control of herself, and she's back. Sounds like a boring story, huh? No conflict, eh? Oh you'd be surprised.


Jean's return causes at least 4 conflicts (at least 3 of them significant) to appear and each gets its own story arc:

1. Jean needs to come to grips with what happened to her and what she's become. She doesn't know what she is anymore. Warren points out to her that the last person who came back from the dead was the son of God. So what does that make her? She talks to different people about it, and each gives a different answer (One good answer: You are Jean Grey). Being potentially immortal has its benefits, but it disturbs Jean knowing that she's going to outlive them all, including the love of her life, Scott. That she'll being drawn away from this world and to a place that no one else can follow.

2. The temptation to use her powers. Jean keeps discovering how powerful she really is, and with her knowledge of medicine is able to pull off some amazing things. She is tempted more and more to use her powers, it becomes rather convenient and addicting. BUT WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE? When should you let matters run their course? Just because you have good intentions, does that mean you should go through with them? When should you interfere and when should you butt out? And at what point do you become so dependent on your powers and hate the limitations of being human that you essentially stop being human? If you have the powers of a goddess, should you act like a goddess? If you can solve all the world's problems, should you?
And there is the danger of her losing her temper. When she gets mad, her eyes glow, the flames appear, and stuff ends up being hurled and tossed around. At one point she nearly shook the whole school apart!
Fortunately, she has people like Professor X to guide her. She may be more powerful than him, but his wisdom and experience surpasses hers. And she still has Scott to lean on. As Scott points out to her: "I'm afraid of what you can do, but not afraid of you, because you're still Jean Grey". And what wisdom does Xavier give her? To be guided by her compassion and humility, her love of life and love for the people around her. That if she fears something and hesitates, that is a good sign. That the more she fears, the less HE will have to fear. She is a child that has outgrown him but he feels confident that he taught her well and she will cope. It's a learning process. Sometimes she succeeds, other times her good intentions end up blowing up in her face. But Jean learns.
When others express their concerns, Xavier describes Jean as follows: "She may no longer be what you and I consider mortal, but she is still human".


3. Why did Jean get off the plane, and why did she allow herself to die? There are several reasons. Scott is convinced that she did it because she wanted to commit suicide and to get away from him. He's convinced she wanted to leave him and it causes him terrible pain and anguish. Jean herself doesn't remember why. Or does she? Did she truly forget? Or is she holding back somthing that she DOESN't want to remember? She comforts Scott by telling him that she CAME BACK BACK FOR HIM, because she loves him and missed him. It's comforting, but not enough. It's a major conflict that is explored throughout the book, and the true, ultimate answer is finally revealed towards the end, when Jean tries to run off again, having realized she's become too powerful to be allowed to live. And Logan exposes the truth to her: tells her WHY she did it at Alkali Lake, and why she's really doing it again. She realizes that Logan is right...

4. The simple fact that Jean was dead and is suddenly alive is a major complication. It's been 8 months. She had her memorial and grave, and the school moved on. They also went to alot of trouble to arrange for the authorities to acknowledge her death, so no one would get suspicious. Missing persons reports had to be filed, and a car had to be dumped into a river claiming she was the driver. Now she's back and all that has to be changed. And it's definitely not easy. And no you can't simply enter everyone's minds with Cerebro and change their thoughts around. Paperwork needs to be filed, evidence needs to be removed or replaced. It turns out to be a complicated process! Especially when Jean really needs to appear in public and they all know she can't be seen by the outside world until the mess is cleaned up.



As to what kind of threat they have to face? It is one that is subtle at first but eventually overwhelms both the X-Men and the Brotherhood and challenges all of Jean's abilities as a doctor and as the Phoenix. And you're probably wondering, if Jean is so well in control of herself, how could she possibly go dark? She does go dark, but not for any reason most people would ever think of. It's not due to mental manipulation, or built-up rages, or mental blocks.

She goes dark, becasue of her love for her friends and family, the kids at the school (her children). They're either dead or dying, there is nothing she can do to save them in time, and the bastards responsible for this are laughing maniacally in her face. Oh she goes dark. She completely loses control and gives in to her anger and helplessness, because she loves them and wants to save them. She takes on the villains in the story and it's a titanic, colossal show of course. Either they'll give her what she needs to save her children, or she'll destroy them all. And it's another one of life's lessons, as Jean learns that acting out of anger doesn't solve anything. She regrets what she does, and realizes that it accomplished nothing.
And while she does this, her teammates mount a mission of their own: one to save those who are dying, and the other to save Jean. They realize correctly that she's not a monster who needs to be destroyed, but a person who needs to be saved and brought back to her senses. They succeed at both, and Jean is able to redeem herself, using the full extent of her compassion and the Phoenix powers to save the day, but it costs her her life...

The Phoenix cannot ever die. She is always reborn. But she can choose to NOT come back. And now Jean realizes she has become much more powerful than any human should ever be allowed to be. She is dangerous to herself and to those around her. She could kill them all if she ever were to lose control again. So she has a difficult choice to ponder. Maybe it's time to let evolution runs its course, and take her to that next level of existence beyond the grasp of humanity... Except, there's one lingering thought left... she would miss someone... someone that she loves, someone that she made a promise to never leave...

What choice will she make?

I'll let you discover that on your own (unless you want me to spoil it for you), but I'll end this with my favorite quote from the book:

There is ever, only one phoenix.

Except when she refuses to rise.

The phoenix must live without mother or father,
without kith or kin, without mate. She is alone.
And that was beyond bearing.

In choosing mortality, she chose companionship, and love. And it's only love that can kill a phoenix.

In the acceptance of death, she found her true rebirth -- and her salvation.
In the acceptance of death, she found her own grail.



Her final fate is one that doesn't involve either death, or mental blocks, or the Cure, but something far more unexpected and... appropriate.

As an alternative to X3, I found Grail to be much more in-depth, intelligent and engaging, and the ending was very surprising but much more appropriate and fulfilling.

Also keep in mind that Jean may have the powers of a goddess, but she's not omnipotent. She doesn't know about everything at the same time. Mystique still manages to pull a few surprises on her. She can't predict the future. And Scott can still block her out of his mind if he chooses to. She still needs to sleep and eat, she still can get drunk, if you pinch or cut her she'll still bleed and it'll still hurt.

In fact, as the story unfolds, she realizes that she LOVES being human. Having super powers may have its perks, but she doesn't use them as a convenient way to fix everything (although she could). She can blow up entire city blocks, but can be very gentle and heal your wounds too.

But when you hurt her feelings, she cries. And when she's afraid or upset in danger, she still leans on Scott because she knows she'll always be safe in his arms.

And THAT is how you can do a Phoenix Story that involves Jean being good and in control and showing off her true strengths and compassion. This is how you can have her go dark and not be seen as a monster, and this is how you can end up with a story that's still suspenseful, full of action, and with an ending that you'll never see coming, but still appreciate.
 
^
I like the sound of that i will start reading it, got nothing to do, great find.
 
DarknessOfDeath said:
In terms of how and why she gets pissed off and becomes Dark Phoenix, I havn't gotten to that part yet.

Wolverine getting all of the attention should do it
 
Bastila said:
^
I like the sound of that i will start reading it, got nothing to do, great find.

Trust me, you won't be disappointed!

What really impressed me is that except for a strange love triangle she sets up, the author managed to account for ALL the things that we saw taking place or being set up in X1 and X2, without contradicting anything.

All the questions that X-Maniac asks at the start of this thread are explored in detail and answered, as well as all the questions left over from X1 and X2.

I'd like to think what others who read it thought of it.
 
What if people quit making what if threads???
 
chaseter said:
What if people quit making what if threads???

My apologies. I did like X3 very much and my intention was to see if there was any other valid, workable way of presenting the Dark Phoenix storyline...

I'm reasonably happy with what we got; others aren't. I was offering the chance to debate the movie version of the Phoenix saga, specifically...

Sadly, our resident Phoenix expert, Almighty Pejo, has left this site for good, for reasons unknown.
 
I miss Pejo... he was cool. He's probably not happy with how Phoenix was represented in x3... -bows head and smacks himself- Now back to happy state :D
 
X-Maniac said:
My apologies. I did like X3 very much and my intention was to see if there was any other valid, workable way of presenting the Dark Phoenix storyline...

Well what do you think of the suggestions so far?
 
Why not we host a competition to use image ready to make the best phoenix effect instead of the one we were given on alcatraz.\^_^ then ask for it to be in the DVD final cut
 
AznBABYBANDIT said:
Why not we host a competition to use image ready to make the best phoenix effect instead of the one we were given on alcatraz.\^_^ then ask for it to be in the DVD final cut

Wrong thread. This isn't the manips thread.
 
ntcrawler said:
Well what do you think of the suggestions so far?

The suggestions so far sounded good. I can see why X3 went for a strong, wider-reaching socio-political them like the cure, and Magneto recruiting Jean to his side makes a kind of sense in tying it together...but in reality, in practice, I can see why people might feel Jean's story was somewhat of a side issue.

Bryan's plan for a back-to-back X3 and X4 would have made sense, perhaps with Phoenix in X3 being a trigger for the government to want greater controls (cure and Sentinels) over mutants in X4... But there is no use crying over spilled milk, as Bryan left Fox and Fox wasn't interested in a back-to-back X3 and X4.

I'd be very happy with X3 if we'd seen a bit more from Jean - the firebird at key moments, and use of her powers to transport the army to SF (a wormhole) and protect them when the bridge was dropped (with a TK field). I'd also have been happy if the oriignal story idea of her arriving at Alcatraz in a Phoenix moment was used.

I still like what we got - I know some of you feel totally cheated by it. But what can be done? How much can you beat yourself up over it?
 
X-Maniac said:
The suggestions so far sounded good. I can see why X3 went for a strong, wider-reaching socio-political them like the cure, and Magneto recruiting Jean to his side makes a kind of sense in tying it together...but in reality, in practice, I can see why people might feel Jean's story was somewhat of a side issue.

In all actuality the X-men should have ignored Magneto's war, or terrorist attack on the pharmaceutical company and focused their efforts on Jean. The way the story's played out, Jean represents a much larger threat than the Cure.
But there is no use crying over spilled milk, as Bryan left Fox and Fox wasn't interested in a back-to-back X3 and X4.
And that's why we got what we got, and why people are upset. the way things were sped up, they ended up not only taking out most of the conflict within Jean, but stripped her of her humanity and compassion as well. Don't you see the irony that the person who sacrificed herself to save everyone is now back and starts killing off the same people she saved?

I'd be very happy with X3 if we'd seen a bit more from Jean - the firebird at key moments, and use of her powers to transport the army to SF (a wormhole) and protect them when the bridge was dropped (with a TK field). I'd also have been happy if the oriignal story idea of her arriving at Alcatraz in a Phoenix moment was used.

I'd be very happy if Jean was actually treated by her teammates as a victim that needs to be saved like in Grail rather than a monster that needs to be destroyed. For everyone to discuss her demise and realize what needs to be done to bring her back and actually have people miss her and try to reach out to her and try alternatives rather than just letting Wolverine kill her. Phoenix effects would help too but special effects only help with character portrayal, it's the actress and her script that makes the real difference. Don't know about wormholes, as that's not compatible with what Jean's powers are supposed to be. Manipulating matter even at the atomic level isn't the same as bending space-time to one's own pleasure.

I still like what we got - I know some of you feel totally cheated by it. But what can be done? How much can you beat yourself up over it?

As much as it takes to get a more satisfying, fulfilling portrayal and and conclusion of a story. The fact that so many people are pulling marathon sessions writing quality alternate storylines including several feature-length novels should send a message and serve as proof that people really are dedicated, that they really do care, and that they truly are upset and disappointed with what FOX gave us. Not everyone is willing to sit idle and just accept what FOX throws at them.
 
If ya look at it like I do; 'Good' Phoenix was in X2 and Dark Phoenix was X3.
 
The Original Bamfer said:
If ya look at it like I do; 'Good' Phoenix was in X2 and Dark Phoenix was X3.

I tried thinking about it that way except that it doesn't work that way, simply because by definition Jean doesn't become "Phoenix" in any sense until she dies first. Only at the moment of death are her powers supposed to be fully manifested, and then she's supposed to be good first before being corrupted. So technically you never see good Phoenix in the films. Just Jean, and then immediately after Dark Phoenix. So something is missing. And that's the part I wanted to see.
 
me too, i wonder what costume she would wore if she was the good phoenix???
 
Cosmic Mind said:
me too, i wonder what costume she would wore if she was the good phoenix???

If she was good phoenix, she would essentially be herself just more powerful, right?.

If anything, wearing the X uniform would remind her of who she is, what she represents, and what she stands for. It would help to remind herself that she's one of the "good guys".

Her labcoat and stethoscope would help remind her of the Hippocratic Oath she took when she became a doctor to help those in need and to harm no one.

The right uniform can have a powerful effect on its wearer.
 
ntcrawler said:
Don't know about wormholes, as that's not compatible with what Jean's powers are supposed to be. Manipulating matter even at the atomic level isn't the same as bending space-time to one's own pleasure.

Comicbook Phoenix did power up an interstellar stargate left by Firelord. More importantly, Dark Phoenix did create a wormhole when she first went into space; it took so much energy out of her that it was the event that led her to consume the D'Bari's sun and destroy their world of billions of lifeforms. I could quite imagine her doing this in the movie, the effort showing on her, making her weak and drained, and the transition killing several mutants who passed through her unstable gateway. Magneto has been shown to create a wormhole in comics recently, so he could have assisted in trying to stabilise the magnetic forces involved in ripping open spacetime. It would have been an uber-cool effect, it would have showcased her awesome power and her lack of total control, and her harmful destructiveness (in inadvertently killing some of the mutants who passed through it), and it would have explained how they got to SF...

ntcrawler said:
As much as it takes to get a more satisfying, fulfilling portrayal and and conclusion of a story. The fact that so many people are pulling marathon sessions writing quality alternate storylines including several feature-length novels should send a message and serve as proof that people really are dedicated, that they really do care, and that they truly are upset and disappointed with what FOX gave us. Not everyone is willing to sit idle and just accept what FOX throws at them.

But you cannot force Fox to remake the movie, or correct it in any way. There has to be a limit to bashing your head on the wall. Pouring energy into alternative versions such as these fanfics is at least a positive approach.
 
X-Maniac said:
It would have been an uber-cool effect, it would have showcased her awesome power and her lack of total control, and her harmful destructiveness (in inadvertently killing some of the mutants who passed through it), and it would have explained how they got to SF...

I know. In the The Last Stand novelization, they instead chartered a plane and flew to SF. :D

But you cannot force Fox to remake the movie, or correct it in any way. There has to be a limit to bashing your head on the wall. Pouring energy into alternative versions such as these fanfics is at least a positive approach.

I can't force them to remake a movie, but that doesn't stop people from voicing their opinions. And corrections have been made. Ever hear of director's or unauthorized cuts or re-edits? I'm not saying it has to be done here or would be done here, but it's been done before. And there are cases of people skipping over films or ignoring certain plotlines when making sequels. Singer stepping over Superman III and IV when making SR is one example.

And yes, I believe in channeling energy in a creative, positive way. Putting together stories that are intelligent, engaging, and fulfilling is a good way to seek revenge. The fact that so many people have done this is a great sign and would be nice if it could somehow send a message that maybe, just maybe, some people are not satisfied because The Last Stand COULD have been better. And it certainly is better than holing up frustrations inside you. After seeing The Last Stand you should appreciate the dangers of locking up frustration and anger deep inside :)

As a writer, I like to give people choices and alternatives. Alot of people seemed to swear by the mental blocks idea or that the Phoenix has to be either inherently evil or destructive or must inevitably lead to that, and then eventually lead to death, that it can't be something that's naturally part of Jean and could be good and benefitial as well as destructive (again, other mutants could be destructive, like Storm and Xavier and Magneto).

I hope that through discussions like these and some of the ideas we mentioned and novels such as "Grail" and "Echo" and "Power Corrupts" and "Phoenix Rising", that there are indeed alternatives and that it is possible to portray Jean and her Phoenix side in a more... positive light, but still keep the story engaging and dramatic.
 

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