If you Don't like the movie - POST HERE

[gambitfire]

gambitfire, While I have you here... do you know where I can find a decent Gambit wallpaper?

http://lediableblanc.com/wall/

 

[kg576094]

All of which is interesting but I really can't believe that time and money were not a factor in the changes made to the story. An epic battle in Washington --- which could hardly be a studio set --- would be costly and time-consuming.

If you believe everything that people say, then perhaps you really do believe Janet Jackson's tit being flashed to the world really was a 'wardrobe function.' I don't know what was funnier - her tit being revealed, the lies about it being a wardrobe malfunction, or the moral crisis and national meltdown it caused across the USA!

LOL I don't understand why you're now comparing Ratner to Justin Timberlake, since you love Ratner so much. But hey, what an adept comparison, considering both of them are well-known hack in their respective fields that critics and people love to hate.

Sometimes I think we've giving Ratner far so less credit for his input on script.
The guy had practically boasted in every newspapers and major news websites that he was the one who had moved the Golden Gate Bridge ....We MUST give dues where they are truly deserved for his ingenious ideas (this was afterall the same director who cured Rogue, made Professor X a damned body snatcher and acknowledged a stupid internet youtube line instead of the relationship between X and Cain).
The movie had his personality written all over it (like he said himself it's a Ratner's movie).
I don't understand Ratner's warfed sense of humor & logics...but oh no I don't think he was lying to the press.

 

[BMM]

I disagree, although yes the problems where there.

You say it as if X3 was the only end result of what the previous movies set up.

It's pretty clear that you didn't like the previous movies, but it's unfair to tell those of us who did that they are the reason we got X3. Because plain and simply it's not.

You want a reason, look at the BS and studio politics that went on around X3's production.

X3 could of gone in another direction, one which seems likely you still would of hated, but not alot of us.

Just saying Goddess.

X-Men and X2 certainly have their issues. What comic book movies don't? I'm alway amazed by the number of complaints I read about Nolan's Begins and Raimi's Spider-Man films.

I think the main difference between the first two films and The Last Stand is that 2000's X-Men, for instance, was bound to make mistakes since (aside from the Animated Series) it was the first translation of the X-Men outside of the books ever. X2 began to make up for some (but definitely not all) of those mistakes, but it also presents new problem areas as well, like the balance of characters, storylines, etc.

The Last Stand, however, was just handled poorly (beyond the first two films) in an attempt to rush it into theaters… and with what seems like such little care, the film doesn't even bother to make up for any of the potentially correctable mistakes of the past. Moreover, the film magnifies the problems of the first two films 10 fold, while creating many problems of its own.

 

[gambitfire]

^Well said.

 

[Theweepeople]

Well, to be fair, some of us (only a few it would seem over the past week, I'll give Nell that) only focused on bad storytelling, the villains being portrayed as ******ed f*** and the final showdown being anything but EPIC.

Here's where I disagree. The movie was epic in many ways. Here are some of the ways:

1. X3 has an amazingly short runningtime. I compared the running time of X3 to the running times of all comic book films released in the theaters. The results of my research shows that of all the third comic book films in a series(Superman, Batman, Blade, X-Men) X3 has the shortest running time. Out of comic book movies made since 1998 the only good ones with running times less than X3 are MIB2 and A History of Violence. CINO and X-Men have identical running times to X3. Here is a list of comic book movies with longer run times:

Flash Gordon, Conan The Barbarian, Howard the Duck, Masters of the Universe, Supergirl, Superman1, Superman2, Superman 3, Superman Returns, Dick Tracy, The Crow, Constantine, Road to Perdition, The Rocketeer, Mystery Men, Hellboy, The Hulk, Sin City, The Punisher, X2, The Shadow, Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2, Blade1, Blade2, Blade3, V for Vendetta, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Batman, Batman Returns, Batman Forever, Batman and Robin, Batman Begins, Fantastic Four.

Here is a list of horrible comic book movies with run times that challenge X3:

The Phantom, Steel, Elektra, and Daredevil.


2. The increase and underdevelopment of new characters(Juggernaut, Quills, Psylocke, Multiple Man, Angel, Callisto, Arclight).

3. The number of mischaracterizations in the film:

Cyclops: Cyclops being irresponsible and uncaring?

Rogue: Apathy towards her powers?

Xavier: Manipulative and arrogant?

Wolverine: Sounding philosophical?

Storm: Coldheartedness towards Jean's fate and Rogue's wish?

Magneto: Acting philosophically inconsistent(Mystique and Xavier fates) and displaying a tactical ineptitude(Battle at Alcatraz and the decision to kill Leech)?

Phoenix: What was her personality? I thought I was watching a zombie in 95% of her scenes.

4. The inconsistent use of good CGI with poor special effects. The scenes at Jeans house, the golden gate bridge sequence(scene where Magneto is landing after dropping the bridge), Beast fighting, and Collosus effects had good CGI that were sounded by poor special effects. There is no excuse for this with a budget of 210 million.

5. The horrible dialogue. I have a few friends who have graduated from film school and all of them thought X3's dialogue sounded like it was written by amateur screenwriters.

6. The bad acting. I've seen amateur actors and actresses in high school plays impress me more with their acting then the poor performances that I saw in X3.

7. The budget. X3 is still without a doubt the worst film with a budget over 200 million I have ever seen. I estimate that somewhere around 60 million dollars were wasted on marketing and other things. One perfect example of how to waste money was in hiring Vinne Jones(6 foot 2, 225 pounds) to play a character that is 7 feet tall and weighs 900 pounds. Why not just hire someone from the WWF and save money on making an expensive body suit? It was done for Sabertooth in X-Men.

8. The number of alternate endings and different takes on the same scene. I've never heard of a DVD with anything near this number of deleted scenes(21!!!). Does Ratner have an obsession with Choose Your Own Adventure and Which Way books?

9. The number of times Fox tried to shoot down rumours about this film:

Fox denies the validity of the intial X3 script released in May of 2005.

Avi Arad calls fanboy's who don't like the hiring of Ratner idiots.

Fox files a lawsuit against Ain't it cool news to get rid of a review they said was phoney in January of 2006. That review revealed the following:

Magneto and Rogue getting cured.

The run time being 1 hour and 43 minutes.

Cyclops, Jean, and Xavier dying.

Fox not deciding to shoot down the following rumours on **************.com which suggested the film would be epic:


http://www.**************.com/news/articles/2306.asp


Simon Kinberg spends 5 months on thexverse.com lying and intentionally misleading fans about what would be in X3.

Fox advertising Angel and Cyclops in X-Men uniforms for magazines and posters.

10. Wolverines absurd power surge during the final confrontation with Jean. This topic has been debated to death since May of last year so there is no further reason to point out why the haters hate this scene so much.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I don't understand Ratner's warfed sense of humor & logics...but oh no I don't think he was lying to the press.

Considering how good he seems to be at 'subtle', yeah, I don't think it was some elaborate stunt to shift blame or anything...

Guy was just bragging and genuinely proud of his ideas.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Love the use of the word EPIC.

lol.

Rock on, buddy.

 

[gambitfire]

Ratner full of himself huh?

If you see him having a career past Rush Hour 3 raise your hand. *looks around*

 

[CapBeerCino]

Sometimes I think we've giving Ratner far so less credit for his input on script.

True... http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235784

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

As of right now, people swear on all things holy that those movies were good. Looking back at reviews, fans sites, critics from six years ago from X1 and three years ago from X2, words said about those films were less than gracious.

Characters were underwritten and a director who didn't know the source material was handling it. Few people were impressed. Fans were insulted.

I just can't believe that Cyke fans are NOW complaining about his death. He died a long time ago.

I remember how alot of fans who saw X2 didn't understand the "liberties" that were taken with the God Loves story line, the villians, Jason's history, and yet they kept Cyke's role basically unchanged. Don't you guys remember the conspiracies that flew around then? Most believed he was going to die in the next sequal after the washed out writing and bad handling then.

I'm not even going to get into the other truly mishandled underwritten adult character... Which is kind of ironic since in a interview for Bravo Singer said that she was a mother, a symbol of will and femininity, and had human faults and fears. Was any of that shown outside of the tight white shirts and the scene of her bending over while teaching? Where was Storm's ultimate fear, or why it was there? Again instead of claustrophobia rendering her useless, the script (s) did. I find it amazing that he did alot of backpedaling about Halle and about the character in that interview.

The heart and mind of the X-men (Cyke and Storm) were turned into cancerous tumors that were pushed aside for a Xavier who slowly became incompetent, a Jean who sucked in other people's roles, and Wolverine who got his own Variety Hour.

Just because you liked it doesn't make it ok. As for that Empire list. Pfft. To think they put V, Spiderman 2, The Crow beneath X2 aught to tell you something.

And here's a big clue that those people who voted on that list are still clueless. Why is the Hulk on there, let alone ranked that high? Especially since it was a blockbuster and critical failure so much that even though its only three years old its going to be retconned?

If you want to trust that list, you go right ahead. I know what I saw, and it wasn't nearly good enough. Go ahead and jump on that bandwagon that heaps amounts of unwarranted praise on X2.

I'm still waiting for my favorite characters to be seen on screen.

Well here is were you and i totally disagree, i thought Hulk was a fantastic movie, and i still watch it to this day, and yes i do think X2 is better than V, The Crow and Spidey 2, and you'll find a lot of people on here agree with me.

What you have to remember about X1 and X2 is that Bryan had neither the time or the money to explore the deeper theme's he intended to. Now, in fairness, Ratner had the same time constraints, yet he had a budget that was higher than the first 2 movies' budgets combined, and he decided to make an epic 3rd part of a trilogy, with more characters and storylines than ANY other CB movie 99 mins long. Sorry but i bet Singers X3 would have been closer to SR length, and i cant understand for the life of me why Ratner decided on that run-time.

As for Storm and Cyclops, its virtually a given that Cyc would had a bigger role in X3 under Singer, Singer likes Marsden as an actor, hence why he took him to SR when he had a pick of THOUSANDS of actors who could have played his role. And i thought his role in X1 was great, and though he was off screen for much of X2, he was never just forgotton like he was in X3, Singer made GREAT EFFORTS in X2 to emphasise that Jean loved Scott, not Wolverine!

Storm was the closest to her CB counterpart in X1, yet people complained about her character so they changed it, fault of the fans IMO.

 

[La_She-Beast]

As of right now, people swear on all things holy that those movies were good. Looking back at reviews, fans sites, critics from six years ago from X1 and three years ago from X2, words said about those films were less than gracious.

Characters were underwritten and a director who didn't know the source material was handling it. Few people were impressed. Fans were insulted.

I just can't believe that Cyke fans are NOW complaining about his death. He died a long time ago.

I remember how alot of fans who saw X2 didn't understand the "liberties" that were taken with the God Loves story line, the villians, Jason's history, and yet they kept Cyke's role basically unchanged. Don't you guys remember the conspiracies that flew around then? Most believed he was going to die in the next sequal after the washed out writing and bad handling then.

I'm not even going to get into the other truly mishandled underwritten adult character... Which is kind of ironic since in a interview for Bravo Singer said that she was a mother, a symbol of will and femininity, and had human faults and fears. Was any of that shown outside of the tight white shirts and the scene of her bending over while teaching? Where was Storm's ultimate fear, or why it was there? Again instead of claustrophobia rendering her useless, the script (s) did. I find it amazing that he did alot of backpedaling about Halle and about the character in that interview.

The heart and mind of the X-men (Cyke and Storm) were turned into cancerous tumors that were pushed aside for a Xavier who slowly became incompetent, a Jean who sucked in other people's roles, and Wolverine who got his own Variety Hour.

Just because you liked it doesn't make it ok. As for that Empire list. Pfft. To think they put V, Spiderman 2, The Crow beneath X2 aught to tell you something.

And here's a big clue that those people who voted on that list are still clueless. Why is the Hulk on there, let alone ranked that high? Especially since it was a blockbuster and critical failure so much that even though its only three years old its going to be retconned?

If you want to trust that list, you go right ahead. I know what I saw, and it wasn't nearly good enough. Go ahead and jump on that bandwagon that heaps amounts of unwarranted praise on X2.

I'm still waiting for my favorite characters to be seen on screen.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry, Goddess...

 

[La_She-Beast]

But surely argument and opinion is part of this place? Others are free to argue their side. I've had that sig for ages, it's odd that you just noticed it. I took the 'X-forums' part out of it especially for you so it can't be taken as a personal attack on anyone here. I enjoy a lively debate but, as you can see from my post higher up, I'm not defending the movie as though my life depended on it, because i wasn't involved with it (regrettably!). It's up to those who did make it to defend themselves.

Ok, ok, you convinced me. Glad you did that for me t:

 

[X-Maniac]

Well here is were you and i totally disagree, i thought Hulk was a fantastic movie, and i still watch it to this day, and yes i do think X2 is better than V, The Crow and Spidey 2, and you'll find a lot of people on here agree with me.

I too liked Hulk but I realise it was very flawed and overly arty. The origin was too complex (his dad's experiments passing on a genetic anomaly, the nanomeds, the gamma burst), Bana was a bit 'flat' for most of the first half, then by contrast the Hulk action was too extreme and comicbooky (the audience hated the 3-mile leaps across the desert). And the mutant poodle was ridiculous. So were the long, lingering shots of desert life. It was an overly-complicated way of telling a simple story. I like its art and its deeper storytelling, but i realise it's not right for this superhero character and that it wouldn't be a success. Which it wasn't.

What you have to remember about X1 and X2 is that Bryan had neither the time or the money to explore the deeper theme's he intended to. Now, in fairness, Ratner had the same time constraints, yet he had a budget that was higher than the first 2 movies' budgets combined, and he decided to make an epic 3rd part of a trilogy, with more characters and storylines than ANY other CB movie 99 mins long. Sorry but i bet Singers X3 would have been closer to SR length, and i cant understand for the life of me why Ratner decided on that run-time.

As for Storm and Cyclops, its virtually a given that Cyc would had a bigger role in X3 under Singer, Singer likes Marsden as an actor, hence why he took him to SR when he had a pick of THOUSANDS of actors who could have played his role. And i thought his role in X1 was great, and though he was off screen for much of X2, he was never just forgotton like he was in X3, Singer made GREAT EFFORTS in X2 to emphasise that Jean loved Scott, not Wolverine!

I don't think Ratner decided on the runtime nor on making an epic third part of a trilogy - that was decided by other higher powers. And it didn't have more storylines than any other CB movie - it had two storylines (cure and Phoenix) that intertwined. X2 had God Loves Man Kills, Wolverine's origin and the Phoenix saga all intertwining. It managed them better because it was longer, a better-told story and because there were fewer characters.
On the downside, Cyclops had to be shoved out of the way for most of the movie and Storm was underdeveloped and wrongly characterised.

Fox would never let Singer make a movie of SR length, that just isn't their thing. Shorter movie = more showings on opening weekend, they want to rake in the cash while they can! But i agree X3 should have been longer, probably about 20 minutes longer.

And of course Cyclops would have had a larger role if Singer was there - since it was Singer leaving and taking Marsden that led to Cyclops having a smaller role (due to politics and/or availability). If Singer hadn't left, Marsden would have been fully available and not leaving for some other project. There's no way of knowing how much the Fox execs would have pushing the Wolverine/Jean romance.

Storm was the closest to her CB counterpart in X1, yet people complained about her character so they changed it, fault of the fans IMO.

No, the writing of the character isn't the fans' fault. They wanted a more proud, regal Storm. The writers made her 'emo' in X1, even more so in X2, and a little too harsh in X3. That's down to the writers. If they'd read the darn comics, they'd understand. And yet they wanted to give her an origin in X1 in which villagers bullied and victimised her - wrong! That's not her origin. Her stance isn't that of a victim at all.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I too liked Hulk but I realise it was very flawed and overly arty. The origin was too complex (his dad's experiments passing on a genetic anomaly, the nanomeds, the gamma burst), Bana was a bit 'flat' for most of the first half, then by contrast the Hulk action was too extreme and comicbooky (the audience hated the 3-mile leaps across the desert). And the mutant poodle was ridiculous. So were the long, lingering shots of desert life. It was an overly-complicated way of telling a simple story. I like its art and its deeper storytelling, but i realise it's not right for this superhero character and that it wouldn't be a success. Which it wasn't.

Well i didnt find the origin too complex and didnt think Bana was that flat, but yeah the Dad storyline could have been done better. Gotta say i loved the action, some of the best action scene's of any CB movie IMO. What i dont get about Hulk is that people are always complaining about tired Hollywood formula's, yet they got something different with Hulk and never embraced it.

I don't think Ratner decided on the runtime nor on making an epic third part of a trilogy - that was decided by other higher powers. And it didn't have more storylines than any other CB movie - it had two storylines (cure and Phoenix) that intertwined. X2 had God Loves Man Kills, Wolverine's origin and the Phoenix saga all intertwining. It managed them better because it was longer, a better-told story and because there were fewer characters.
On the downside, Cyclops had to be shoved out of the way for most of the movie and Storm was underdeveloped and wrongly characterised.

I think Ratner had a hand in the run-time, he himself said he has a short attention span in an interview, and as far as i know he's only ever made one of movies over 2 hours, i could be wrong there though.

Fox would never let Singer make a movie of SR length, that just isn't their thing. Shorter movie = more showings on opening weekend, they want to rake in the cash while they can! But i agree X3 should have been longer, probably about 20 minutes longer.

All true, except i think Singer's X3 would have been longer than X2.

And of course Cyclops would have had a larger role if Singer was there - since it was Singer leaving and taking Marsden that led to Cyclops having a smaller role (due to politics and/or availability). If Singer hadn't left, Marsden would have been fully available and not leaving for some other project. There's no way of knowing how much the Fox execs would have pushing the Wolverine/Jean romance.

Didnt Marsden have more time to shoot than they originally anticipated? They could have easily written extra scene's for him.

No, the writing of the character isn't the fans' fault. They wanted a more proud, regal Storm. The writers made her 'emo' in X1, even more so in X2, and a little too harsh in X3. That's down to the writers. If they'd read the darn comics, they'd understand. And yet they wanted to give her an origin in X1 in which villagers bullied and victimised her - wrong! That's not her origin. Her stance isn't that of a victim at all.

I thought in X1 she was the closest she ever got to being the CB character, but complained about her characterisation so they changed it. They may have changed it the wrong way, but it was fan influence that changed it.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Ratner full of himself huh?

If you see him having a career past Rush Hour 3 raise your hand. *looks around*

*still looking around*

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Well i didnt find the origin too complex and didnt think Bana was that flat, but yeah the Dad storyline could have been done better. Gotta say i loved the action, some of the best action scene's of any CB movie IMO. What i dont get about Hulk is that people are always complaining about tired Hollywood formula's, yet they got something different with Hulk and never embraced it.

Great action scenes indeed. Still, the first hour was painful and the final battle had a definite WTF quality to it.

I think Ratner had a hand in the run-time, he himself said he has a short attention span in an interview, and as far as i know he's only ever made one of movies over 2 hours, i could be wrong there though.

You know, when you think about it...

The best they could find to direct the last alledgedly epic installment of a trilogy was a guy with ADD. Man, if that's not messed up, I don't know what is...

Didnt Marsden have more time to shoot than they originally anticipated? They could have easily written extra scene's for him.

You seem to forget the him being everyone's b**** angle. Doesn't work if he actually gets to do stuff.

 

[Goddessreicho]

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry, Goddess...

Aww LSB, I :heart: you. For really. Even more than GambitFire. t:

The Goddess's top five Hypers (even tho she may disagree with them).

1. WeatherWitch tied with Ntcrwler
2. Flavio
3. LSB
4. DarthCyclopsRlZ (yeah, he works fast don't he.)
5. GambitFire

 

[LastSunrise1981]

When my girlfriend and I watched the entire trilogy as a whole I still had a bitter taste in my mouth. We're both comic book geeks and she knows more about the X-Men than I do.

I understand that X1/X2 had flaws. I truly wish Cyclops, Storm, Rogue, Iceman, Sabretooth, and Mystique were shown more for who they were/are rather than just being cardboard cut-outs. But in general even though their origins and character traits weren't deeply explored, in essence, when they were on screen were a bit faithful to the comics than anything in X3.

One could see Rogue being a scared isolated teenager and then build her up as being confident, strong, and determined. In X2 she was becoming more confident and stronger in her abilities.

A lot of the great stuff in both films were cut out. I wish Cyclops owning Wolverine with Jean in the bedroom was left in. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the scene went as follows:

Scott-::See's Jean and Logan in the bedroom with Jean reading his mind::

Jean-Scott?

Jean- Goodnight Logan.

Logan- Goodnight.

Jean- Are you coming?

Scott- I'll be right there.

Logan- You going to tell me to stay away from your girl?

Scott- If I had to do that she wouldn't be my girl.

Logan- Well then I guess you have nothing to worry about do you, Cyclops?

Scott- You know, I'd feel a lot more better about this if you were taking it more seriously. Some mutants take pride in their gifts, especially those of us who are willing to fight for what we believe in.

Logan- Have you seen any real combat boy?

Scott- Have you?!

Logan- ::Gets shocked and disgusted::

Scott- Don't like to talk about your past? ::smirks::

Logan- Not to you.

Scott- It must just kill you that boy like me saved your life. Got to be careful, I might not be there next time.

Logan-........

Scott- And Logan, stay away from my girl.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott- Logan if we do this, we do this as a team. Are you going to have a problem taking orders?

Logan- I don't know. Give me one.

Scott- Put this uniform on.

Logan- Whose is it?

Scott- Mine.

Those scenes could've been left in and Scott/Jean in the classroom with Scott teaching the students and them holding hands should've been left in.

A lot of the great scenes were cut out it seemed in order to favor Wolverine more, which in some ways, made Ororo, Scott, Jean, Bobby, and Rogue more weaker than Logan. Yes, I realize this and understand that it seemed Fox had a hard-on for Wolverine since day one. I truly wish Scott, Ororo, Bobby, Rogue, Sabretooth, Mystique, and Jean were explored more deeper than just being weaklings compared to the almighty Wolverine. It's one of the reasons why I find it frustrating to debate with those who aren't familiar with the comics.

You have some posters here who are just happy to have X-Men or are just happy that X3 was released in general. I want more, I want better characterizations, and I wish Fox hadn't screwed with Singer the way they did by keeping him from making a marvelous trilogy.

A lot of the mistakes/problems that existed could've been corrected with extended dialogue, deleted scenes left in, and so forth.

X1/X2 are great films. Are they perfect? No. They are far from perfect and had some problems that existed within them. But the problems(in my opinion) aren't as huge or as costly as the ones in X3. I don't know why Singer deleted the scenes that expanded the roles of Bobby, Scott, Ororo, and Jean. Either he felt it didn't flow with the pace of the film or Fox demanded that he remove them.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

X1/X2 are great films. Are they perfect? No. They are far from perfect and had some problems that existed within them. But the problems(in my opinion) aren't as huge or as costly as the ones in X3.

Wouldn't say great, but yeah, their flaws are definitely not as god-awful as those from X3.

I don't know why Singer deleted the scenes that expanded the roles of Bobby, Scott, Ororo, and Jean. Either he felt it didn't flow with the pace of the film or Fox demanded that he remove them.

Refer to the 'fox having a ***** for Wolvie from day one' thingy you brought up.

 

[X-Maniac]

Refer to the 'fox having a ***** for Wolvie from day one' thingy you brought up.

Fox always wanted Wolverine as 'the leading man'. See this interview with Shuler-Donner: http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2003/04/28/lauren_shuler_donner_x_men_2_interview.shtml

(note there are links to interviews with other production members and actors on the top right of that page)

 

[ntcrawler]

For those of you who want to continue to obsess over mindless *****ing and whining, ntcrawler, theewheepeople, you can have it. I'm done.

Hahaha, very funny. Sadly it's just as I predicted. Instead of trying to show logical, intelligent counter arguments to the questions and nitpicks I raised on here that the majority of people consider valid, you instead declare them to be "whining" and try to shift the issues away from them and instead try go paint me as a villain.

My arguments were always backed up with evidence and were targetting the film, not you. I'm truly disappointed in the way you shift a debate to personal attacks and try to discredit people instead of countering their points.

 

[ntcrawler]

Love the use of the word EPIC.

lol.

Rock on, buddy.

I think some people confuse the terms "epic" and "summer blockbuster". I consider Lord of the Rings to be an Epic, and X3 to be a summer blockbuster along the lines of movies like Enemy Gold and Alien vs Predator. I think that's the mistake that FOX made with X3. That they shifted the franchise too much into the "gee whiz! blockbuster!" realm.

 

[ntcrawler]

Fox always wanted Wolverine as 'the leading man'. See this interview with Shuler-Donner: http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2003/04/28/lauren_shuler_donner_x_men_2_interview.shtml

(note there are links to interviews with other production members and actors on the top right of that page)

I don't have a problem with making Wolverine the "leading man" the way it was done in X1. That story obviously focued on him and was told from his POV as he learns abou the X-men and their world around him. That is fine.

But to literally make Wolverine the "Leading Man", ie in charge of the X-men and start acting like a father figure and commander and give grand speeches as they go into battle... that's really pushing it.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I don't have a problem with making Wolverine the "leading man" the way it was done in X1. That story obviously focued on him and was told from his POV as he learns abou the X-men and their world around him. That is fine.

But to literally make Wolverine the "Leading Man", ie in charge of the X-men and start acting like a father figure and commander and give grand speeches as they go into battle... that's really pushing it.

No, no, no. You don't get it.

Movieverse Wolvie has a second mutation. It's just that they couldn't be bothered to mention it.

He leeches off the commendable traits/personas of other characters. Cyke and Storm's protectiveness/leadership, Bobby's sense of humour, Gambit's flirtatious tendancies...

Really, there IS a good explanation for the whole thing.

 

[ntcrawler]

Ratner as any director has his own personal style, whether good or bad is of course subject to debate. But each director's style makes him suitable for a particular kind of genre or film which needs that style to help bring it to life. To keep an argument short, comparing Ratner and Singer I consider Singer to have the more appropriate style for making a movie series like the X-Men. Despite their flaws, I feel Singer was closer to the truth when he wanted to make a movie where the real story was the characters themselves and the human drama, with action used to help illustrate the story instead of making the action and violence the central part of the story with character interaction 2nd.