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[Angamb]

I didn't think about it, but yes, it's weird.... maybe he had a girlfriend and we didn't see her on screen, hahahah.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

In the stages before Vaughn, when there was no director, Kinberg and Penn were basically to write separate drafts. When Vaughn came in, this infamous "6 day draft" was basically Vaughn, Kinberg, and Penn, altogether, taking what they felt was the best elements of the 2 different drafts, bringing them together with one, with input from Matthew Vaughn on what he wanted.

Dear god.

The best of what was written?? t:

*gags*

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Hmm, well, at the Jean house scene, I dunno that Colossus would have really fit in there.

The purpose of just Storm and Wolverine going was because Xavier DIDN'T want trouble, DIDN'T expect Magneto, and this was just supposed to be a more personal mission. Colossus wasn't attatched to Jean the way Xavier, Wolverine and Storm were (or obviously, Cyclops, if he were still alive).

That's why I didn't mention adding any other X-Men.

The funniest part is that said purpose WOULD make sense in about any x-verse. Only, ya know, Storm and Jean didn't actually interact and Storm gave up on her "friend" in about 3 seconds flat.

Magneto, on the other hand, you'd think he'd want his most trusted partner who, at this point, was Pyro. Why he wasn't there, I don't understand.

Not enough good guys, nothing for him to do, eh. Besides, nothing beats the l33tness of fire VS ice, it would seem.

 

[X-Maniac]

Characters have a tendancy of just disappearing in this movie.

So, in the church scene, Magneto recruits Callisto, Arclight, Quill, and Psylocke. In the convoy scene, Psylocke is gone. It's Callisto, Arclight, and Quill. When Magneto enters the convoy, it's just him and Pyro. Callisto, Arclight, and Quill are gone. Okay, I guess I can buy that Callisto, Arclight, and Quill just kick it outside the convoy while Magneto handles his business.

Back at Magneto's hideout, it's Callisto, Arclight, Pyro, Multiple Man, and Juggernaut. I can buy that Quill is kicking it up in the forest. But in the next scene, at Jean's house, Pyro, Multiple Man and Psylocke are still missing. Magneto obviously wants his army there, since he takes Callisto, Arclight, Quill, and Juggernaut. But where is Psylocke? Where is Multiple Man? And where the hell is his right hand man Pyro?!

All of them are present in the woods, except for Psylocke. She is never seen in any of the scenes beyond her one church line.

Until somehow, she's randomly inside Worthington Labs with Arclight and Quill go after Warren Worthington. But, Psylocke wasn't there to get the order to go after Warren Worthington. So, how did she get there?

There's definatley some incoherance in how characters appear in certain scenes and not in others.

Can you imagine a battle at Jean's house of:

Pyro, Juggernaut, Callisto, Arclight, Quill, and Psylocke vs. Wolverine and Storm? That would have been awesome to have Psylocke and Pyro in that battle.

That would have been the ultimate mutant rumble of super powers all over the place. The visual powers of Psylocke, Pyro, and Storm, the brute powers of Wolverine and Juggernaut, the mental powers of Xavier and Jean, all in one sequence?

I don't mind that we don't see all the baddies together all the time. Pyro was clearly off on a mission at some point as he was alone when he blew up the clinic in Washington (where he bumped into Iceman). That was obviously shortly after the scene at Jean's house - as it is after Charles' funeral that Bobby and Kitty's skating prompts Rogue to pack her bags and then Bobby goes to find her. So it's fair to assume that Pyro went off on his mission at around the same time that Magneto took the others to Jean's house.

Callisto did not step aboard the prison convoy because, had she been there, her superspeed could have stopped the cure dart hitting Mystique. So, instead, they had her and the others suddenly appear outside (out of nowhere it seemed!) and remain outside. But I would have liked to have seen Callisto give Magneto the details of the mutants on board and their powers. It seemed an ideal scene in which to show her powers, and we could have seen some visual FX for her 'scanning/sensing' power at work.

 

[Theweepeople]

I don't mind that we don't see all the baddies together all the time. Pyro was clearly off on a mission at some point as he was alone when he blew up the clinic in Washington (where he bumped into Iceman). That was obviously shortly after the scene at Jean's house - as it is after Charles' funeral that Bobby and Kitty's skating prompts Rogue to pack her bags and then Bobby goes to find her. So it's fair to assume that Pyro went off on his mission at around the same time that Magneto took the others to Jean's house.

This is just another example of bad writing and horrible filmmaking. What mission was Pryo on? What were Pyro's objectives? Are you trying to convince me Magneto wanted him too blow up one mutant curing clinic when there are many being set up for the mutants in other states? Maybe you are. I guess that idea would be consistent with X3's Magneto who showed over and over again that his plans made little sense.

I also found the scene transitions to be very interesting during that stage of the film. We see Wolverine leaving the X-Mansion on his motorcycle to find Jean then a few scenes later we see Pyro and Bobby talking. Then a few scenes later Wolverine is at Magneto's base and Pyro is with him? Where was Magneto's base? It shouldn't have been near the X-Mansion but, that's the impression I got when Magneto and his mutants arrive at Jean's house the same time as Xavier. If the base was in New York state that could explain how Pryo could arrive at the same time Wolverine gets there since Wolverine clearly had a head start? All of this makes me wonder how did Magneto transport a whole army of 100 mutants across the west coast to san fransisco without the government knowing. If Magneto's base was in a western state then how was Wolverine able to travel across the US and back before Magneto attacks alcatraz?

 

[the a1ant]

I don't even want to think about it The whole east coast/ west coast thing was a mess, IMO. Lots of things not explained. The original script had the final battle in Washington DC (though San Fran was earlier in the story--i think?), so maybe the writers forgot to connect the missing dots when they changed the finale to San Fransisco or something

 

[X-Maniac]

This is just another example of bad writing and horrible filmmaking. What mission was Pryo on? What were Pyro's objectives? Are you trying to convince me Magneto wanted him too blow up one mutant curing clinic when there are many being set up for the mutants in other states? Maybe you are. I guess that idea would be consistent with X3's Magneto who showed over and over again that his plans made little sense.

In fairness, Pyro blew up the clinic as what was called 'the first salvo' - it was a terrorist warning, so that Magneto could show that he meant business when he did his TV broadcast. Those aspects were clearly mentioned in the movie.

You are being a little over-the-top here. When I read a reply from you somwhere on here that said that the part where Wolverine is thrown up through the ceiling in one room and falls down in the other room was impossible due to your "calculations of velocity" or whatever, that pretty much said it all. Some things you raise are valid questions, some things are not. That was silly nitpicking.

So is this point. The absence of Pyro at Jean's house is not a valid concern. The Brotherhood members have always gone on solo 'missions.' Pyro's mission was clearly to create a terrorist incident that Magneto could use as a public warning. There was nothing wrong with his absence at Jean's house, given that we saw him in Washington carrying out a terrorist attack shortly afterwards. That is beyond question.

I also found the scene transitions to be very interesting during that stage of the film. We see Wolverine leaving the X-Mansion on his motorcycle to find Jean then a few scenes later we see Pyro and Bobby talking. Then a few scenes later Wolverine is at Magneto's base and Pyro is with him? Where was Magneto's base? It shouldn't have been near the X-Mansion but, that's the impression I got when Magneto and his mutants arrive at Jean's house the same time as Xavier. If the base was in New York state that could explain how Pryo could arrive at the same time Wolverine gets there since Wolverine clearly had a head start? All of this makes me wonder how did Magneto transport a whole army of 100 mutants across the west coast to san fransisco without the government knowing. If Magneto's base was in a western state then how was Wolverine able to travel across the US and back before Magneto attacks alcatraz?

Magneto's base wasn't identified in X1 either. It was an island in a never-named location. An island from which Sabretooth managed to travel to Canada and back, for instance, before they had commandeered Senator Kelly's helicopter. Sabretooth's movements were never explained, nor was it justified how Nightcrawler could teleport 400 miles from Washington to Boston - that's quite a lot of teleporting there. And very convenient how he happened to be in Boston, where Bobby's family were...thus the team was conveniently brought back together.

Magneto's base in X3 is similarly in an unnamed location. And his method of transportation isn't given either. I agree these are valid questions, but none of us here has the answers - it doesn't mean there aren't any answers though. (In any event, I didn't like the part where Wolverine went to Magneto's forest camp - it felt like a studio demand to give Wolverine a fight scene and left me with several questions.)

 

[Theweepeople]

In fairness, Pyro blew up the clinic as what was called 'the first salvo' - it was a terrorist warning, so that Magneto could show that he meant business when he did his TV broadcast. Those aspects were clearly mentioned in the movie.

Give me a break. The government and public were warned about mutant terrorism in X1 with the mutant skirmishes at the train station and Liberty Island. In X2 the government was exposed to Magneto escaping from a maximum security prison while killing people in the process. Both the government and public had to know the danger of mutant terrorism before the start of X3.

Magneto must have been a fool to send Pyro to blow up a clinic for the sole purpose of sending a mutant terrorist warning. However, I will admit that your theory is consistent with the scatter-brained thought process of X3's Magneto.

You are being a little over-the-top here. When I read a reply from you somwhere on here that said that the part where Wolverine is thrown up through the ceiling in one room and falls down in the other room was impossible due to your "calculations of velocity" or whatever, that pretty much said it all. Some things you raise are valid questions, some things are not. That was silly nitpicking.

That scene was over-the-top so it deserved to be picked apart. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if it didn't look so ridiculous.

So is this point. The absence of Pyro at Jean's house is not a valid concern. The Brotherhood members have always gone on solo 'missions.' Pyro's mission was clearly to create a terrorist incident that Magneto could use as a public warning. There was nothing wrong with his absence at Jean's house, given that we saw him in Washington carrying out a terrorist attack shortly afterwards. That is beyond question.

Yes, the brotherhood have gone on solo missions but, their missions had more significance in the past films.

X1: Sabertooth goes to canada to capture Rogue.
Mystique disguises herself as Gyriche's assistant.
Mystique and Toad capture Gyrich.
Mystique goes to X-Mansion to influence Rogue to leave.
Sabertooth and Toad go to Train Station to stop Cyclops and
Storm from find Rogue.

X2: Mystique disguises herself as mutiple people to free Magneto.

Magneto's base wasn't identified in X1 either. It was an island in a never-named location. An island from which Sabretooth managed to travel to Canada and back, for instance, before they had commandeered Senator Kelly's helicopter. Sabretooth's movements were never explained, nor was it justified how Nightcrawler could teleport 400 miles from Washington to Boston - that's quite a lot of teleporting there. And very convenient how he happened to be in Boston, where Bobby's family were...thus the team was conveniently brought back together.

I'm not suprised that you've ignored the explanations I've given to all these things you are still complaining about. Magneto's base wasn't identified but, one thing is clear about it. It's certaintly not in the same state as the X-Mansion so I don't know what you're complaining about.

There was nothing inconsistent about all the things you mentioned within the scene transitions of X1. We don't see Sabertooth at Magneto's Island before Rogue goes to Canada. Sabertooth could have even been in Canada before Rogue even left. My theory for all that happened is Magneto found out about the incident at Rogue's house through the newspaper, radio, internet, or television news, and sent Mystique to investigate. Mystique disguised herself at Rogue's home, followed her locally as she decided to runaway, and found out that she was heading to Canada. She then sent this information to Magneto and he decided to tell Sabertooth to apprehend Rogue. The movie gave us no indication where Sabertooth was when this decision was made because it was unnecessary.

I already gave you an explanation for Nightcrawler traveling that far. You originally complained about this because you wondered how could Xavier not get a lock onto Nightcrawler's location if he constantly teleported. My belief is Nightcrawler obviously didn't teleport every constantly from Washington to Boston. He probably teleported part of the way and put on a disguise(He had a disguise on at the whitehouse) to take a train, bus, or some other form of transportation to travel the rest of the distance. Also, Xavier couldn't be looking for Nightcrawler at every moment of the day because he has to eat, sleep, teach classes, tutor, relax, and using Cerebro for an extended period of time could strain him mentally.

Magneto's base in X3 is similarly in an unnamed location. And his method of transportation isn't given either. I agree these are valid questions, but none of us here has the answers - it doesn't mean there aren't any answers though. (In any event, I didn't like the part where Wolverine went to Magneto's forest camp - it felt like a studio demand to give Wolverine a fight scene and left me with several questions.)

Only part of Magneto's method of transportation isn't given in X1. He used a helicopter and boat to travel in some scenes. I cut Singer some slack in X1 because it is much easier for me to accept Magneto finding suitable transportation for a few mutants in comparison to the mutant army he commanded in X3. There is still no logical explanation for how Magneto could transport a whole army across the nation without the government not knowing and then attack Alcatraz. In fact the only way I somewhat accept Magneto's attack on alcatraz without the government being prepared is for the location of his base to be in a west coast state. Of course, that location makes Wolverine's travels to the west and back to the east before the attack on Alcatraz impossible.t:

 

[X-Maniac]

Give me a break. The government and public were warned about mutant terrorism in X1 with the mutant skirmishes at the train station and Liberty Island. In X2 the government was exposed to Magneto escaping from a maximum security prison while killing people in the process. Both the government and public had to know the danger of mutant terrorism before the start of X3.

Magneto must have been a fool to send Pyro to blow up a clinic for the sole purpose of sending a mutant terrorist warning. However, I will admit that your theory is consistent with the scatter-brained thought process of X3's Magneto.

Pyro created a terrorist warning linked to the issue that was of primary concern - the cure. It was obviously a specific warning over the cure. I can see why Magneto did not rely on the public/media remembering the events of X1 and X2 - he created a fresh warning related to the issue that was motivating his activities at the time.

That scene was over-the-top so it deserved to be picked apart. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if it didn't look so ridiculous.

Why was it that ridiculous? What was so bad about it? Wolverine's adamantium skeleton would make him fall fast and hard. And, by the way, he does initially run at Juggernaut with his claws out - you can see it on the DVD.

Yes, the brotherhood have gone on solo missions but, their missions had more significance in the past films.

X1: Sabertooth goes to canada to capture Rogue.
Mystique disguises herself as Gyriche's assistant.
Mystique and Toad capture Gyrich.
Mystique goes to X-Mansion to influence Rogue to leave.
Sabertooth and Toad go to Train Station to stop Cyclops and
Storm from find Rogue.

X2: Mystique disguises herself as mutiple people to free Magneto.

I don't see why those things are more significant than Pyro being sent to cause a terrorist incident at a cure clinic.

I'm not suprised that you've ignored the explanations I've given to all these things you are still complaining about. Magneto's base wasn't identified but, one thing is clear about it. It's certaintly not in the same state as the X-Mansion so I don't know what you're complaining about.

There was nothing inconsistent about all the things you mentioned within the scene transitions of X1. We don't see Sabertooth at Magneto's Island before Rogue goes to Canada. Sabertooth could have even been in Canada before Rogue even left. My theory for all that happened is Magneto found out about the incident at Rogue's house through the newspaper, radio, internet, or television news, and sent Mystique to investigate. Mystique disguised herself at Rogue's home, followed her locally as she decided to runaway, and found out that she was heading to Canada. She then sent this information to Magneto and he decided to tell Sabertooth to apprehend Rogue. The movie gave us no indication where Sabertooth was when this decision was made because it was unnecessary.

Your theorising is interesting, but unconfirmed and, ultimately, irrelevant. What is most interesting is that your theories include a ton of events we didn't see on screen and which aren't mentioned anywhere. You are being overly 'scientific' about everything once again!

I already gave you an explanation for Nightcrawler traveling that far. You originally complained about this because you wondered how could Xavier not get a lock onto Nightcrawler's location if he constantly teleported. My belief is Nightcrawler obviously didn't teleport every constantly from Washington to Boston. He probably teleported part of the way and put on a disguise(He had a disguise on at the whitehouse) to take a train, bus, or some other form of transportation to travel the rest of the distance. Also, Xavier couldn't be looking for Nightcrawler at every moment of the day because he has to eat, sleep, teach classes, tutor, relax, and using Cerebro for an extended period of time could strain him mentally.

Interesting. I never 'complained' about this aspect, though. I mentioned that Nightcrawler appeared to teleport a vast distance (and Jean mentions that Xavier couldn't get a lock on him because of his teleportation, not because he was a on train or bus). We're obviously meant to believe he continuously teleports, which stops Xavier getting a fix on his location.

Only part of Magneto's method of transportation isn't given in X1. He used a helicopter and boat to travel in some scenes. I cut Singer some slack in X1 because it is much easier for me to accept Magneto finding suitable transportation for a few mutants in comparison to the mutant army he commanded in X3. There is still no logical explanation for how Magneto could transport a whole army across the nation without the government not knowing and then attack Alcatraz. In fact the only way I somewhat accept Magneto's attack on alcatraz without the government being prepared is for the location of his base to be in a west coast state. Of course, that location makes Wolverine's travels to the west and back to the east before the attack on Alcatraz impossible.t:

Interesting. But since we don't have any location for the camp, there is no way to know for sure. I'm not familiar with the geography and related travel times of the USA, but I found some travel links on websites (http://www.weathercentral.com/travel/us/driving_distances.html) and I think it's more likely that Magneto's base was somewhere like Washington, which was part of the original story and the place where Pyro blasts a clinic (Washington DC is 240 miles from New York and 2,800 miles from San Francisco). This makes it feasible for Wolverine to travel the distance on the bike and means Magneto and his army used long-distance transportation to get to Alcatraz - the novelisation has them using a plane. Given Magneto's control of jets as demonstrated in X2, it's likely that he somehow found a plane (abandoned military complex?) and used that, with perhaps Jean or himself shielding the craft from technology such as radar.

I agree we didn't get details of locations and transportation in the movie. But I don't think they were that essential. It would have been nice to have locations flash on the screen (as in Casino Royale) but it's not vital. You are being overly scientific. I agree these details would probably have mattered more to Singer and we would have had more explicit information, but his movies do also have holes in them (where was Magneto's prison, how did he and Mystique transport themselves towards the X-mansion -- the novelisation has them in a very conspicuous magnetically-levitating limousine!!!!)

 

[britrogue]

I agree with you on the 'guest list' scene. For me, that scene was very cheesy. It might've been better for Callisto to 'read' the mutants on board the vehicle. It's funny how she just disapeared in that scene...wasn't she outside the vehicle?

I couldn't agree more. Much as I love Pyro, I disliked this scene with a passion. It was without a doubt one of the most rushed imo

 

[Fried Gold]

Testify!

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

And very convenient how he happened to be in Boston, where Bobby's family were...thus the team was conveniently brought back together.

Convenient, yes. But not random or inexplicable. It was already established that Jean and Storm were headed to Boston to find Nightcrawler; Logan knew this. After the mansion raid, Logan's first thought was to head to the Boston area and try to rendezvous with Jean and Storm. They were already on their way before Bobby informed Logan that his parents live there.

 

[X-Maniac]

Convenient, yes. But not random or inexplicable. It was already established that Jean and Storm were headed to Boston to find Nightcrawler; Logan knew this. After the mansion raid, Logan's first thought was to head to the Boston area and try to rendezvous with Jean and Storm. They were already on their way before Bobby informed Logan that his parents live there.

I'm fully aware of the plot of X2. As you admit, it's a convenience. Especially when comicbook Iceman's parents live in Fort Washington, New York.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Huh.

So we moved on from ******ed ending and characterization to... huh... logistics??? lol

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Huh.

So we moved on from ******ed ending and characterization to... huh... logistics??? lol

When Maniac is losing a debate he tries to sway the topic and make it seem like people have become stupid overnight.

 

[Theweepeople]

Pyro created a terrorist warning linked to the issue that was of primary concern - the cure. It was obviously a specific warning over the cure. I can see why Magneto did not rely on the public/media remembering the events of X1 and X2 - he created a fresh warning related to the issue that was motivating his activities at the time.

Yes, the warning was fresh but, it was still unnecessary and had little affect on the storyline. If that terrorist event was so significant then why didn't the goverment consider improving the security on Alcatraz for the possibility of Magneto attacking the source of the cure? This is merely another example of horrible writing and bad filmmaking. That scene of Pryo destroying the clinic was nothing more than a mindless action sequence.

Why was it that ridiculous? What was so bad about it? Wolverine's adamantium skeleton would make him fall fast and hard. And, by the way, he does initially run at Juggernaut with his claws out - you can see it on the DVD.

If you truely examined my commentary where I broke down that scene with simple physics then you would undestand how ridiculous it is. There is no way Wolverine could land were he landed considering the velocity thrown, the angle of the throw, and the time it would take for him to fall back down after reaching the apex of the throw.

I don't see why those things are more significant than Pyro being sent to cause a terrorist incident at a cure clinic.

This is like comparing apples and oranges. Let me break this down for you X-Maniac.

X1: Sabertooth goes to canada to capture Rogue.

This is probably the only mission that was not crucial to the X1 storyline however, it was a nice way to introduce three characters(Cyclops, Storm, Sabertooth.)

X1: Mystique disguises herself as Gyriche's assistant.
Mystique and Toad capture Gyrich.

Without Mystique and Toad accomplishing these goals Gyrich would not have been captured and the storyline could have been completely different.

X1: Mystique goes to X-Mansion to influence Rogue to leave.

If Mystique didn't get Rogue to leave then how would the brotherhood capture her?

X1: Sabertooth and Toad go to Train Station to stop Cyclops and
Storm from finding Rogue.

If Sabertooth and Toad didn't stop Cyclops and Storm from finding Rogue then Magneto's plan to capture Rogue would have been thwarted and the storyline would be different.

X2: Mystique disguises herself as mutiple people to free Magneto.

The significance of this mission is pretty self-explanatory. If Mistique didn't disguise helfself as Gyrich, Lady Deathstrike, and the prostitute how would Magneto have escaped from prison.

X3: Pryo blows up mutant clinic.

What effect would the absence of this scene have on the storyline?

If you can't see why the things I mentioned are more significant then there is no point in arguing about this anymore. We will have to agree to disagree.

Your theorising is interesting, but unconfirmed and, ultimately, irrelevant. What is most interesting is that your theories include a ton of events we didn't see on screen and which aren't mentioned anywhere. You are being overly 'scientific' about everything once again!

Excuse me. You're the one who keeps coming up with these ridiculous complaints of X1 and X2. I find it bizzare that you keep calling my explanations irrelevant when they are simply the product of your irrelevant questions. I wonder if I'm wasting my time giving you explanations because more often than not it appears as though you know your questions are bullcrap.

Interesting. I never 'complained' about this aspect, though. I mentioned that Nightcrawler appeared to teleport a vast distance (and Jean mentions that Xavier couldn't get a lock on him because of his teleportation, not because he was a on train or bus). We're obviously meant to believe he continuously teleports, which stops Xavier getting a fix on his location.

You complained about this aspect during that crazy 7 day debate we had a while back. Besides, what would hinder Nightcrawler from doing this if he did most of it during night when he would have less of a need for a disguise. All of the scenes right after Xavier locates Nightcrawler and leaves cerebro confirm that it is nighttime.

Interesting. But since we don't have any location for the camp, there is no way to know for sure. I'm not familiar with the geography and related travel times of the USA, but I found some travel links on websites (http://www.weathercentral.com/travel/us/driving_distances.html) and I think it's more likely that Magneto's base was somewhere like Washington, which was part of the original story and the place where Pyro blasts a clinic (Washington DC is 240 miles from New York and 2,800 miles from San Francisco)

If these locations are accurate then Pryo's exclusion from the battle at Jean's House is even more absurd. That scene of Pryo destroying the clinic takes place well after the battle at Jean's house. Why couldn't
Magneto have Pryo come with him to Jean's house and then destroy the clinic on his way back to the base? Magneto could have sent Pyro at any time to destroy a mutant clinic so I find it inconceivable that he decided to send Pyro at the same time he planned to convince the most powerful mutant on the planet to join his brotherhood with force.

I agree we didn't get details of locations and transportation in the movie. But I don't think they were that essential. It would have been nice to have locations flash on the screen (as in Casino Royale) but it's not vital. You are being overly scientific.

These details are vital if the storyline needs them to be explained. In my opinion these details were not explained in X3 because the story was put together hastily and there was no rational way to fix these plotholes.

 

[ntcrawler]

IMHO, X3 at best can be seen as a work of fiction within the X-men movieverse or universe. You know, the stereotypical Hollywood dramatization or "interpretation" of actual events like that great film about Amy Fisher or Elian Gonzales with just a few "improvements" here and there. The kind of thing that the actual X-men could go into a movie theater and see to amuse themselves, seeing how Hollywood "interprets" some great battle or cataclysm that they fought to save the world from, and then ***** and gripe at all the inconsistencies or messups or how the actors playing them don't look right or how their on-screen versions don't act like themselves.

In fact, I think it would be hilarious to do an X3 / MST3K type deal where the characters were to sit down to watch X3: The Last Stand and give us their commentary and feelings about what they see.

It's been done before too. Macross: DYRL (Do You Remember Love) was meant to be a fictional dramatization / summary of the events seen in Macross: The TV Series

 

[ntcrawler]

[steps up to podium and clears clears throat]

I did not like the film...

Oh wait, we're already been through this, haven't we? t:

 

[kg576094]

Relying less on CGI in a mutant movie would mean more wirework, prosthetics and make-up - which we got anyway. Cudmore wore metal mask and armour for Colossus, Beast was make-up and prosthetics (as was Juggernaut) and wirework was used for flying sequences. And yet all these were criticised by the haters. You can't have it all ways!

And I don't think Ratner had unlimited freedom or cash. He was restricted by time, and he must have had budgetary limits too. I would imagine it was lack of time that led to the script change that took the Washington assault out of the story - in his defence, that lack of time was not Ratner's fault either. I would also imagine that the bridge being dropped heavily (and TheWeePeople's fixation over people on it being hurt or killed) is because that was filmed at the time when only Magneto was involved in that scene. In fact, on one of the trailers you see the bridge coming down and there are no cars or mutants on it at all. I bet the bridg-dropping was part of the original script where Magneto frees mutants from Alcatraz (and performs a mercy killing on Mystique who has been forcibly cured in an experiment).

I believe Ratner's script changes were purely for the sake of time, knowing what could be achieved. This may be why some of the 'connective tissue' is missing in the movie (a lack of scenes with Angel, Beast and Phoenix to explain their decisions).

When Ratner, Kinberg and Penn were presented with the chance to be involved with an X3, of course they jumped at the chance. Who wouldn't!?
It was up to people like Schuler-Donner and Ralph Winter and Avi Arad to keep the faith, but then these are people who think Gambit is too similar to Wolverine.

I think Ratner isn't the demon hellspawn you all make him out to be.

Sometimes I wonder if you're blindly defending Ratner or do you even read any of his interview?
He had clearly stated in interviews that he had read thru Vaughn's full script, found the white house assault cringe-worthy and moved the bridge scene from the middle to the finale.
And what was his logic for doing so - not due to time but because of a visually stunning scene which he had to put in the end so nobody will miss it but in the process sacrificing the story and any epicness the movie could have been as well as creating logic problems with the over-actions and inactivities of both Magneto and the Phoenix respectively.
X, I agree that the production was rushed but not to the point that he couldn't do scenes he wanted to do, considering he had over 20 deleted scenes in his dvd, most of which were alternate takes/conclusion to the same scene and he had even time to do a extra end-of-the credit scene that was not in the script.
After learning that Ratner was the one who cut the relationship between Xavier and Juggernaut from another thread, I shudder to think what other significant characterisations he had left in the cutting board in exchange for all his mindless & unnecessary actions....I would really love to read Vaughn's full script before Ratner dumbified it.

Was it disappointing that you'd be doing a movie like this but you wouldn't be able to shepherd it because it was developed by another director?

Ratner: It really wasn't developed by another director. I think Matthew Vaughn came on very late, too. He was only on for a few weeks, also. It takes years to develop something, really. They started developing this right after "X2," so it wasn't really... I don't really hear much in the media about who did what. At the end of the day, I directed the movie, so that's what I care about.

Dialogue, too? Did you have the writers there on set?

Ratner: I had the writers there. The story never changed, that's what I loved about it. I completely changed the third act, but not the story. The story was there. It was just the location changed, because the third act was ending in Washington, DC. I said to the studio that these movies always end in Washington, DC. I've seen it so many times. (SPOILERS) And the thing that they did is that they had this incredible set piece, which is this bridge sequence, but it was in the middle of the movie. Originally, there wasn't that truck sequence with the prisoners? They were on Alcatraz Island, that was a prison, and Magneto came to the prison to break them out of the prison and used the bridge to get them off the island. So I said, "This is crazy!" This is the biggest set piece in the entire world, that I've ever read, and it's in the middle of a movie. We have to move this to the end and make it part of the plot. Breaking them out is just one part of it, but where are you going to go from there? So I convinced Tom Rothman, the head of the studio, to move it to the end of the movie and put the Cure on Alcatraz Island and put a face on The Cure with the little boy, and have the reason they're bringing that bridge over is that it just connects the dots even better, I think.

So what was the biggest scene you shot to fit your own sense... that's different from the previous two films? What will people who know your work as a director see as distinctively something of yours?

Ratner: I don't think it's a shot. I don't think it's something like Spike Lee with the shot of the guy floating down the street. (laughter) I think it's more of an energy. If you watch the other movies and you watch this movie, I think this movie has a pace that's my kind of ADD frenetic... I get bored very easily so... next scene, next scene, next scene, keep it moving, keep it moving, keep it moving... I mean, did you fall asleep at all in the film or no? A few times?

(SPOILERS) The after credit sequence in this film... is that something that was in the script? Do you know the whole time that you want to put that after the credits?

Ratner: Yeah, the studio didn't even know I did it until.. I didn't even put it on the schedule. I shot in between set-ups, just went over there and shot it, and then I showed it to the studio and they went "Oh My God, we love that!" because it keeps Xavier. Look, in the last one, Jean Grey died and then I saw her on the first day of shooting X3, so nobody dies in these movies? What the hell are they talking about?

 

[ntcrawler]

^^^ Excellent point, kg576094. Ratner was soooo pressed for time that he only managed to shoot multiple, different outcomes to several character-critical scenes.

 

[Theweepeople]

IMHO, X3 at best can be seen as a work of fiction within the X-men movieverse or universe. You know, the stereotypical Hollywood dramatization or "interpretation" of actual events like that great film about Amy Fisher or Elian Gonzales with just a few "improvements" here and there. The kind of thing that the actual X-men could go into a movie theater and see to amuse themselves, seeing how Hollywood "interprets" some great battle or cataclysm that they fought to save the world from, and then ***** and gripe at all the inconsistencies or messups or how the actors playing them don't look right or how their on-screen versions don't act like themselves.

In fact, I think it would be hilarious to do an X3 / MST3K type deal where the characters were to sit down to watch X3: The Last Stand and give us their commentary and feelings about what they see.

It's been done before too. Macross: DYRL (Do You Remember Love) was meant to be a fictional dramatization / summary of the events seen in Macross: The TV Series

Nightcrawler!!!! You're back. Long time no see. Here's a cyber high five to you. I hope you stay around for a while and continue contributing to the X3 bash fest. Also, have you been enjoying my criticisms of Simon Kinberg's Q and A archives from thexverse.com?

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I don't mind that we don't see all the baddies together all the time. Pyro was clearly off on a mission at some point as he was alone when he blew up the clinic in Washington (where he bumped into Iceman). That was obviously shortly after the scene at Jean's house - as it is after Charles' funeral that Bobby and Kitty's skating prompts Rogue to pack her bags and then Bobby goes to find her. So it's fair to assume that Pyro went off on his mission at around the same time that Magneto took the others to Jean's house.

Wrong.

Pyro is seen in the woods with Magneto before the cure clinic attack, and after Jean's house, so that's clearly not the reason why he wasn't there.

 

[Angamb]

You know how should have been the events in the Jean house?

Storm and Logan end soon with the baddies and enter the room where were Jean, Xavier and Magneto, and see Xavier's death with their own eyes. That would have been more epic, and dramatic.

 

[X-Maniac]

Wrong.

Pyro is seen in the woods with Magneto before the cure clinic attack, and after Jean's house, so that's clearly not the reason why he wasn't there.

I see. Well, perhaps he stayed behind to guard the forest camp. Perhaps Magneto didn't want him to come - given the lecture that Magneto gave Pyro in the forest, Magneto might have thought taking along a bitter psycho hothead like Pyro might not be a good idea.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. The fact that Pyro does go off to a cure clinic in Washington and the fact that Callisto is clearly elsewhere when she picks up readings of Phoenix's presence before reporting back to Magneto, means that the Brotherhood aren't chained together.

 

[X-Maniac]

Yes, the warning was fresh but, it was still unnecessary and had little affect on the storyline. If that terrorist event was so significant then why didn't the goverment consider improving the security on Alcatraz for the possibility of Magneto attacking the source of the cure? This is merely another example of horrible writing and bad filmmaking. That scene of Pryo destroying the clinic was nothing more than a mindless action sequence.

That incident DID lead to government action. As a result, troops were stationed at clinics and the cure was officially weaponised.

If you truely examined my commentary where I broke down that scene with simple physics then you would undestand how ridiculous it is. There is no way Wolverine could land were he landed considering the velocity thrown, the angle of the throw, and the time it would take for him to fall back down after reaching the apex of the throw.

I just don't buy this nitpick at all. Even if it's valid, which I somehow doubt (since you cannot possibly actually know the velocities, distances and masses involved), it's not relevant. If any awards had a nitpick category, yours could be a winner.

This is like comparing apples and oranges. Let me break this down for you X-Maniac.

X1: Sabertooth goes to canada to capture Rogue.

This is probably the only mission that was not crucial to the X1 storyline however, it was a nice way to introduce three characters(Cyclops, Storm, Sabertooth.)

X1: Mystique disguises herself as Gyriche's assistant.
Mystique and Toad capture Gyrich.

Without Mystique and Toad accomplishing these goals Gyrich would not have been captured and the storyline could have been completely different.

X1: Mystique goes to X-Mansion to influence Rogue to leave.

If Mystique didn't get Rogue to leave then how would the brotherhood capture her?

X1: Sabertooth and Toad go to Train Station to stop Cyclops and
Storm from finding Rogue.

If Sabertooth and Toad didn't stop Cyclops and Storm from finding Rogue then Magneto's plan to capture Rogue would have been thwarted and the storyline would be different.

X2: Mystique disguises herself as mutiple people to free Magneto.

The significance of this mission is pretty self-explanatory. If Mistique didn't disguise helfself as Gyrich, Lady Deathstrike, and the prostitute how would Magneto have escaped from prison.

X3: Pryo blows up mutant clinic.

What effect would the absence of this scene have on the storyline?

If you can't see why the things I mentioned are more significant then there is no point in arguing about this anymore. We will have to agree to disagree.

Pyro blowing up the cure clinic, as mentioned by Magneto in his terrorist broadcast, made the threat a reality which made the government take action. As such it was an 'inciting incident' for the president to act in a military capacity and draw the battle lines in an attempt to stop Magneto.

You complained about this aspect during that crazy 7 day debate we had a while back. Besides, what would hinder Nightcrawler from doing this if he did most of it during night when he would have less of a need for a disguise. All of the scenes right after Xavier locates Nightcrawler and leaves cerebro confirm that it is nighttime.

I question Nightcrawler's ability to continuously teleport for 450 miles. I mentioned it to show the concept can be questioned and that it does sound somewhat unrealistic.

EDIT: And since he can only teleport to a destination he knows (to prevent him ending up inside a solid object) he would already have to know the 450-mile route pretty well so he didn't make that mistake. Does this sound logical and realistic?

If these locations are accurate then Pryo's exclusion from the battle at Jean's House is even more absurd. That scene of Pryo destroying the clinic takes place well after the battle at Jean's house. Why couldn't
Magneto have Pryo come with him to Jean's house and then destroy the clinic on his way back to the base? Magneto could have sent Pyro at any time to destroy a mutant clinic so I find it inconceivable that he decided to send Pyro at the same time he planned to convince the most powerful mutant on the planet to join his brotherhood with force.

As I said above to Nell, maybe Pyro stayed behind to guard the forest camp. Maybe Magneto thought a dangerous psycho hothead (who would have killed Charles by his own admission) was a bad idea if he was going to try persuading Jean to join him. Pyro's hardly known for moderation, tact or compassion - he would probably have just roasted Xavier and burned the house down and caused Phoenix to act against him!

These details are vital if the storyline needs them to be explained. In my opinion these details were not explained in X3 because the story was put together hastily and there was no rational way to fix these plotholes.

Most sci-fi movies, especially those with superhuman beings, do not stand up to close scrutiny. The story comes first and people behave in a way that serves that story. Just look at the Superman Returns board, which makes this place look like a lovefest. In that movie too, there are questions of 'how did he' or 'why did/didn't he'.

If I were involved in making these movies, then I would try to be much more detailed with locations, travel times and power usages, so every scene made sense. But that's not how most movies are made, nor (from experience) how most books are written. Every person isn't in every scene, every superbeing isn't struggling to use their ultimate power to stop every threat in every scene.

I would suggest you avoid science fiction altogether because it's never going to please you if you cannot suspend disbelief to some extent. Stick to documentaries on The Discovery Channel - and even then you will find implausibilities and non-science - I watched a programme last night (on BBC4 in the UK) on super-tornadoes and saw how everyone huddled in one corridor of a church was saved when all else around them was levelled, I heard them talking about how 'demons had come for them and angels had saved them', they showed the church cross still standing amid the devastation, I saw them find a picture of the tornado's descending clouds which when turned on its side showed a figure looking amazingly like Jesus, whom they believed had come to make sure they got to heaven! I saw an F5 tornado flatten Jarrett, Texas, whirling away the husband of a woman who was just inches away climbing into a closet - 27 people died and when the school played their next football game, the score was 27. Imagine how unreal, contrived and ridiculous all that would have seemed within a movie. Even in the real world, there are conveniences, synchronicities, coincidences and things that defy rational explanation.