In The Multiverse Of Madness Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Batmannerism]

I mean, other Doctor Strange also used the Darkhold to sacrifice an entire universe "for the greater good"

And other other Doctor Strange used it to dreamwalk and kill other versions of himself over jealousy that they could be with Christine and he couldn't, a selfish act.

I think the Darkhold probably tries to corrupt people through whatever is easily corruptable about the individual's state of mind.
In case of Strange that would usually be his willingness to sacrifice things "for the greater good" because there "is no other way" being corrupted into him seeing devastating options as viable and dismissing potential less harmful alternatives and thus reigning destruction in the name of the "greater good". Or in cases where he's grieving over losing Christine it would corrupt his grief into a debilitating jealousy of anyone that has what he can't have and allow him to act out revenge fantasies.

In case of Wanda the fact that she obtained it at a point in her life where she had lost so much and had such a vulnerable emotional state as she had, combined with the fact that she was isolating herself with the book for a prolonged period, probably meant that she got more corrupted.

The main Strange not being as corrupted yet probably has to do with him not having had as much exposure to it after only using it once, as well as us not yet having seen what consequences he may suffer, as hinted by the ending.

Keep in mind that it's estimated that WandaVision takes place in November 2023, No Way Home in December 2024 and Multiverse of Madness is after No Way Home. Meaning that Wanda may have been alone with the Darkhold for over a year. I don't think that's comparable with Strange's single use.

My point was mainly that Wanda was down a dark path well before the Darkhold came along.

What she did in Westfield was selfish, narcissistic and evil.

As for "which version of Dr Strange" that's kind of a meaningless comparison, with infinite versions of him some have used the Darkhold for good and some for evil. When I say meaningless, its because there are infinite variations - where does it end?

As such, I'm limiting the comparison to what the main , 616, Dr Strange does with the Darkhold, compared to 616 Wanda.

She did have it for a lot longer than Strange, that's true. If both of them held it for equal amounts of time how would it affect them, we can only speculate.

But Wanda’s actions before she took the Darkhold say a lot about her. True, she lost her brother and husband, but does being sad make what she did okay ? To me, the answer is no.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

My point was mainly that Wanda was down a dark path well before the Darkhold came along.

What she did in Westfield was selfish, narcissistic and evil.

Yeah, but they way they resolved those acts in WandaVision was by explicitly showing her remorse, and accepting her grief.

So it does somewhat cheapen the growth and resolution from that series.

On a COMPLETELY different note - I hate, hate HATE that for the second time in an MCU movie they've tried to brand it as the 616 Universe. It annoyed me when Mysterio claimed it in Far From Home, but thankfully it was all a lie... So then why have they made the same mistake already?

The 616 Universe already exists... It's the comic universe. The whole point of numbering different canonical universes is specifically to distinguish them from one another, and imply that they're all existing universes. They even went out of their way in this movie to show us a Ditko-esque cartoon universe, so for brief moment you can imagine that the comic universe exists as it's own connected universe.

And then they just HAD to go and ruin it hahaha. Would've loved to get an official Universe number for the MCU that sits alongside other established Marvel universes.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Would've loved to get an official Universe number for the MCU that sits alongside other established Marvel universes.

It'll always be 19999 to me.

 

[Batmannerism]

Yeah, but they way they resolved those acts in WandaVision was by explicitly showing her remorse, and accepting her grief.

So it does somewhat cheapen the growth and resolution from that series.

I have to disagree with you there.

In Dr Strange 2, Strange refers to Westfield with a single line if dialogue, saying that Wanda "put that right."

My question is "how" ? She enslaved an entire town for weeks.

What did she do to atone for that ? She's accepted her grief so its all okay ?

To me, that's not a resolution.

How does she help the people of Westfield recover from the nightmare she inflicted on them ?

To be honest, she doesnt come off as terribly remorseful at the end of WandaVision.

Sure she lets them go...but then she enslaved them in the first place.

Its like that " theyll never know what you sacrificed.." line. Wanda didnt sacrifice anything. Sacrifice is giving up something that's real.
What she did was like a burglar giving back a bunch of things theyve stolen in a badly damaged condition.

And as for growth, she doubles down on her path to evil, because at the end of WandaVision we see her with the Darkhold.

 

[Drizzle]

My friend's take on the movie:

"There was so much going on in it that a literal minotaur is walking around and nobody questioned it."

They really did just have Rintrah as a background character with no explanation, lol.

 

[metaphysician]

Perhaps recruitment was up after the socerers public coming out party before the Blip and at the Avengers Compound battle.

Also, just because Mordo is a recurring nemesis for Strange, and thinks there are "too many sorcerers", doesn't mean he's necessarily waging war on *Kamar-Taj*. Its entirely possible that the majority of his villainous activity consists of, effectively, vigilante murder/depowering of unaffiliated magic-users, which the world implicitly has in decent numbers. So, sorcerers in good standing with Kamar-Taj might be safe enough as long as they don't get in his way, while Strange isn't because of a specific personal grudge.

 

[metaphysician]

As for the matter of universe designation numbers. . . 616 was invented as the number for the "main" Marvel Universe. And bluntly, as the world exists now? The movies *are* the main universe.

 

[TeeKay]

What explanation do you need? The Darkhold corrupted her and that was made very clear in the fulm

Not even that, there's one thing I feel people are missing or downright forgot. Wanda started off as a VILLAIN in AOU.

Any fans of her knew exactly where her character was gonna end up, dark hold or not. I feel like the darkhold just amplified who she really is.

 

[InCali]

Not even that, there's one thing I feel people are missing or downright forgot. Wanda started off as a VILLAIN in AOU.

Any fans of her knew exactly where her character was gonna end up, dark hold or not. I feel like the darkhold just amplified who she really is.

A brainwashed villain though. My take on her is that she has always been somewhat fragile psychologically and it started with the early brainwashing. I think she's "basically" a good, caring person (although the good part rather split), but is a loose cannon when things get difficult. Her compass is kind of screwed up.

 

[samsnee]

She deserved a better introduction IMO. Shouldn’t have been relegated to a post credit scene. I had no idea who she was (probably along with most of the general audience). They should at the very least said her name.

Horrible intro. That and Eternals end credit scene were dumb and bad ways to introduce new characters. Her costume made her look like a Power Rangers villain.

 

[rashad]

Makes me wonder what Scott Derrickson's take on the film would've been like. This was definitely a mess of a film on a basic script level alone. Phase 4 has been very hit or miss. From the Disney+ shows to the films. What are we building towards?

 

[Batmannerism]

Not even that, there's one thing I feel people are missing or downright forgot. Wanda started off as a VILLAIN in AOU.

Any fans of her knew exactly where her character was gonna end up, dark hold or not. I feel like the darkhold just amplified who she really is.

Hmmmmmm.... i kind of agree and kind of disagree with you there.

Does she end up as a villain in MOM, absolutely- but overall she's a complicated character, who does both heroic and monstrous things.

I guess we can say that the Darkhold certainly amplified her negative aspects.

Its tough, because in AOU she's on a revenge trip, and sets an enraged Hulk loose in a populated area, which probably resulted in hundreds of casualties. Her actions are villainous, no question

Sure, she's manipulated by Ultron, but she still does some pretty nasty stuff. She does draw the line at wiping out humanity, which is why she starts helping the Avengers, and after that she acts heroically for a while - and shows genuine remorse for accidentally killing those Wakandans in Nigeria ( Civil War).

Later she helps the Avengers fight Thanos and sacrifices Vision for the greater good, because he asks her to - kind of got the feeling that if he hadn't, she would never have done something like that simply for the greater good itself.

Of course she cant deal with the grief and enslaves a town - straight up villain move there.



I think Wanda's biggest flaw is selfishness and being overly emotional. She'll do heroic things as long as she feels good about it, and it aligns with her interest but she's kind of weak - that she's easily manipulated and when things are difficult she'll use her powers to do whatever makes her feel better, and isnt really willing to accept responsibility for the consequences of her evil actions.

All in all I'd say Wanda is a very relatable and complex character because she's deeply flawed and capable of both good and bad ( really bad) actions. I mean, most people given that kind of power would probably misuse it as Wanda does.

Her arc is definitely an interesting one, and she's probably the best developed character of phase 4.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, but they way they resolved those acts in WandaVision was by explicitly showing her remorse, and accepting her grief.

So it does somewhat cheapen the growth and resolution from that series.

On a COMPLETELY different note - I hate, hate HATE that for the second time in an MCU movie they've tried to brand it as the 616 Universe. It annoyed me when Mysterio claimed it in Far From Home, but thankfully it was all a lie... So then why have they made the same mistake already?

The 616 Universe already exists... It's the comic universe. The whole point of numbering different canonical universes is specifically to distinguish them from one another, and imply that they're all existing universes. They even went out of their way in this movie to show us a Ditko-esque cartoon universe, so for brief moment you can imagine that the comic universe exists as it's own connected universe.

And then they just HAD to go and ruin it hahaha. Would've loved to get an official Universe number for the MCU that sits alongside other established Marvel universes.

Don't forget the post-credit for WandaVision.

 

[Bayne]

Yeah, but they way they resolved those acts in WandaVision was by explicitly showing her remorse, and accepting her grief.

So it does somewhat cheapen the growth and resolution from that series.

On a COMPLETELY different note - I hate, hate HATE that for the second time in an MCU movie they've tried to brand it as the 616 Universe. It annoyed me when Mysterio claimed it in Far From Home, but thankfully it was all a lie... So then why have they made the same mistake already?

The 616 Universe already exists... It's the comic universe. The whole point of numbering different canonical universes is specifically to distinguish them from one another, and imply that they're all existing universes. They even went out of their way in this movie to show us a Ditko-esque cartoon universe, so for brief moment you can imagine that the comic universe exists as it's own connected universe.

And then they just HAD to go and ruin it hahaha. Would've loved to get an official Universe number for the MCU that sits alongside other established Marvel universes.

They can't actually both be part of the same multiverse anyway. They have two different versions of America Chavez who's signature shtick is that she's 'unique in the multiverse'.

A brainwashed villain though. My take on her is that she has always been somewhat fragile psychologically and it started with the early brainwashing. I think she's "basically" a good, caring person (although the good part rather split), but is a loose cannon when things get difficult. Her compass is kind of screwed up.

?

In what way was Wanda brainwashed in AoU? Ultron lied to her about his intentions, but he didn't control her at all. And she and Pietro volunteered for Hydra's experiments as a path to getting revenge on Tony Stark. And also didn't really follow Strucker's orders very well, anyway.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Am I wrong, or is Wanda not responsible for the Darkhold? Like the reason she showed up at Wandacore is because she's the Wanda that "chose" to be the Scarlett Witch. Which means, the only thing "influencing her", is herself. Because she created the Darkhold.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Hmmmmmm.... i kind of agree and kind of disagree with you there.

Does she end up as a villain in MOM, absolutely- but overall she's a complicated character, who does both heroic and monstrous things.

I guess we can say that the Darkhold certainly amplified her negative aspects.

Its tough, because in AOU she's on a revenge trip, and sets an enraged Hulk loose in a populated area, which probably resulted in hundreds of casualties. Her actions are villainous, no question

Sure, she's manipulated by Ultron, but she still does some pretty nasty stuff. She does draw the line at wiping out humanity, which is why she starts helping the Avengers, and after that she acts heroically for a while - and shows genuine remorse for accidentally killing those Wakandans in Nigeria ( Civil War).

Later she helps the Avengers fight Thanos and sacrifices Vision for the greater good, because he asks her to - kind of got the feeling that if he hadn't, she would never have done something like that simply for the greater good itself.

Of course she cant deal with the grief and enslaves a town - straight up villain move there.



I think Wanda's biggest flaw is selfishness and being overly emotional. She'll do heroic things as long as she feels good about it, and it aligns with her interest but she's kind of weak - that she's easily manipulated and when things are difficult she'll use her powers to do whatever makes her feel better, and isnt really willing to accept responsibility for the consequences of her evil actions.

All in all I'd say Wanda is a very relatable and complex character because she's deeply flawed and capable of both good and bad ( really bad) actions. I mean, most people given that kind of power would probably misuse it as Wanda does.

Her arc is definitely an interesting one, and she's probably the best developed character of phase 4.

Yeah. She was real selfish when she crushed Vision's head or released the town at the end of WandaVision.

Who are all these people that successfully manipulated Wanda? Strucker tried, did not work. Ultron tried, did not work. Tony and Vision tried, did not work. Agatha tried, again did not work. Who has pulled it off?

 

[InCali]

They can't actually both be part of the same multiverse anyway. They have two different versions of America Chavez who's signature shtick is that she's 'unique in the multiverse'.



?

In what way was Wanda brainwashed in AoU? Ultron lied to her about his intentions, but he didn't control her at all. And she and Pietro volunteered for Hydra's experiments as a path to getting revenge on Tony Stark. And also didn't really follow Strucker's orders very well, anyway.

Yeah. I've had this disagreement before and I don't mean mind control per se. I was watching a show named "Welcome to Eden" and it reminded me of a time when I sort of dabbled hanging out in certain, what I consider, cults. They use similar techniques. Scientology is very good at it, but not everyone is really very susceptible to their indoctrinations. So, like Wanda, I wasn't very good at following orders, but, unlike her, I didn't lose anyone close to me or come out of it damaged (at least I don't think I did. LOL). I mean I get the difference between her and, for example, Bucky, but still consider what happened to her brainwashing of a sort. It can also leave you in something of a fragile state psychologically and then the suffering the trauma of loss twice, and I would say her also being a victim of the snap, can cause people to behave in ways that are flat out nuts. I'm not saying she bears no responsibility, but I would think that a lot of people who have been through what she went through would be less than reliable.

As a society, we tend to draw a line of "responsible" and "not responsible" for your actions. In fact, I would say there's something of a continuum there and not a line.

 

[scarlet-witch]

Am I wrong, or is Wanda not responsible for the Darkhold? Like the reason she showed up at Wandacore is because she's the Wanda that "chose" to be the Scarlett Witch. Which means, the only thing "influencing her", is herself. Because she created the Darkhold.

Where did you get that she was responsible specifically for the Darkhold? I didn't catch that.

 

[InCali]

Hmmmmmm.... i kind of agree and kind of disagree with you there.

Does she end up as a villain in MOM, absolutely- but overall she's a complicated character, who does both heroic and monstrous things.

I guess we can say that the Darkhold certainly amplified her negative aspects.

Its tough, because in AOU she's on a revenge trip, and sets an enraged Hulk loose in a populated area, which probably resulted in hundreds of casualties. Her actions are villainous, no question

Sure, she's manipulated by Ultron, but she still does some pretty nasty stuff. She does draw the line at wiping out humanity, which is why she starts helping the Avengers, and after that she acts heroically for a while - and shows genuine remorse for accidentally killing those Wakandans in Nigeria ( Civil War).

Later she helps the Avengers fight Thanos and sacrifices Vision for the greater good, because he asks her to - kind of got the feeling that if he hadn't, she would never have done something like that simply for the greater good itself.

Of course she cant deal with the grief and enslaves a town - straight up villain move there.



I think Wanda's biggest flaw is selfishness and being overly emotional. She'll do heroic things as long as she feels good about it, and it aligns with her interest but she's kind of weak - that she's easily manipulated and when things are difficult she'll use her powers to do whatever makes her feel better, and isnt really willing to accept responsibility for the consequences of her evil actions.

All in all I'd say Wanda is a very relatable and complex character because she's deeply flawed and capable of both good and bad ( really bad) actions. I mean, most people given that kind of power would probably misuse it as Wanda does.

Her arc is definitely an interesting one, and she's probably the best developed character of phase 4.

This is pretty much how I see her also.

 

[AvengerPA]

I think the next few years are gonna fly with how packed the slate is. Here's how I think it could go to get Secret Wars going earlier than 2028:

Remainder of 2022

July - Thor 4
November - Wakanda Forever

2023

February - Quantumania
May - GOTG Vol. 3
July - The Marvels
November - ? Probably Blade

2024

May - ? Most probably Fantastic 4
July - ? Most probably Captain America 4
November - ? Most probably Spider-Man 4

2025

February - ? Probably Deadpool 3
May - ? probably Shang-Chi 2
July - ? Most probably X-Men (25th anniversary since the first live action movie)
November - ? Probably Eternals 2

2026

February - ? Probably the first Portman Thor solo movie
May - ? probably Doctor Strange 3
July - ? probably Nova (replacing the GOTG)
November - ? probably Black Panther 3

2027

February - ? probably Captain Marvel 3
May - Secret Wars: Part I
July - ? probably Blade 2
November - ? probably Spider-Man 5

2028

February - ? Maybe Namor
May - Secret Wars: Part II
July - ? probably Fantastic Four 2
November - ? probably Captain America 5

I don't want an Eternals sequel. Give me Scarlet Witch and Silver Surfer feature films.

 

[Albright]

'Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness' Musical Battle Was Created in Reshoots - Murphy's Multiverse

really loved the Fantasia homages. Also the music for the fight against Gargantos sounded a bit like night on bald mountain.

 

[scarlet-witch]

The musical battle was the best part of the film for me.

 

[Bayne]

Am I wrong, or is Wanda not responsible for the Darkhold? Like the reason she showed up at Wandacore is because she's the Wanda that "chose" to be the Scarlett Witch. Which means, the only thing "influencing her", is herself. Because she created the Darkhold.

It was pretty explicit that the demon Chthon created the temple at Wundagore (which is the original Darkhold, all the books being copies of the carvings in the temple). Wanda is the fulfillment of Chthon's prophecy of the Scarlet Witch (which was described by Agatha Harkness in WandaVision).

I suppose its possible that we have so little information about Chthon that it could still become a surprise reveal that Chthon *is* Wanda reaching through time. But so far nothing has even remotely hinted at that possibility and it seems highly unlikely to me considering the source material.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah, but they way they resolved those acts in WandaVision was by explicitly showing her remorse, and accepting her grief.

So it does somewhat cheapen the growth and resolution from that series.

On a COMPLETELY different note - I hate, hate HATE that for the second time in an MCU movie they've tried to brand it as the 616 Universe. It annoyed me when Mysterio claimed it in Far From Home, but thankfully it was all a lie... So then why have they made the same mistake already?

The 616 Universe already exists... It's the comic universe. The whole point of numbering different canonical universes is specifically to distinguish them from one another, and imply that they're all existing universes. They even went out of their way in this movie to show us a Ditko-esque cartoon universe, so for brief moment you can imagine that the comic universe exists as it's own connected universe.

And then they just HAD to go and ruin it hahaha. Would've loved to get an official Universe number for the MCU that sits alongside other established Marvel universes.

Eh, I don't get bogged down in things like that. Movies are movies, comics are comics, etc. So the movies call itself 616 now, that doesn't invalidate the comics books. They are 2 different things regardless

 

[samsnee]

I wonder why they cut the “Things just got out of hand” line that was in the trailer.