In The Multiverse Of Madness Spoiler Discussion Thread

But that doesn't mean that whole 10 years is Multiverse stuff

I think the next few years are gonna fly with how packed the slate is. Here's how I think it could go to get Secret Wars going earlier than 2028:

Remainder of 2022

July - Thor 4
November - Wakanda Forever

2023

February - Quantumania
May - GOTG Vol. 3
July - The Marvels
November - ? Probably Blade

2024

May - ? Most probably Fantastic 4
July - ? Most probably Captain America 4
November - ? Most probably Spider-Man 4

2025

February - ? Probably Deadpool 3
May - ? probably Shang-Chi 2
July - ? Most probably X-Men (25th anniversary since the first live action movie)
November - ? Probably Eternals 2

2026

February - ? Probably the first Portman Thor solo movie
May - ? probably Doctor Strange 3
July - ? probably Nova (replacing the GOTG)
November - ? probably Black Panther 3

2027

February - ? probably Captain Marvel 3
May - Secret Wars: Part I
July - ? probably Blade 2
November - ? probably Spider-Man 5

2028

February - ? Maybe Namor
May - Secret Wars: Part II
July - ? probably Fantastic Four 2
November - ? probably Captain America 5
 
So DS1 ended with Mordo losing faith in the Ancient Once and we saw him on a quest to take out other sorcerers. We finally get the sequel to that film and the only Mordo we see is an alternate universe one....WTF?!? How the hell they just drop that plot? I think Stephen had a quick line expressing animosity towards his Mordo and I guess we are to assume Mordo came for him between films. Not enough people are talking about that

I felt it was kinda odd too, but I just went for it.

Ideally, I personally would have preferred another DS solo film/ story before this one, in which we actually see Christine move on from Stephen and meet her new beau, while at the same time, continue the Mordo seeking revenge story as the sole villain of the film.

This film felt in alot of ways like a 3rd film in a solo DS series than a second film.

But I get that there were other projects and stories they wanted to focus on before another Solo DS film , plus we have the whole issue with the snap and the five year time jump, etc.

Now , I'm saying this as someone who only watched the first DS once, and who doesn't know the ins and outs of which supporting characters were snapped, and which weren't.

But anyway, that's just me.
I know there are those who didn't need that stuff and were perfectly fine with alot of stuff just happening off screen.
 
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I think the next few years are gonna fly with how packed the slate is. Here's how I think it could go to get Secret Wars going earlier than 2028:

Remainder of 2022

July - Thor 4
November - Wakanda Forever

2023

February - Quantumania
May - GOTG Vol. 3
July - The Marvels
November - ? Probably Blade

2024

May - ? Most probably Fantastic 4
July - ? Most probably Captain America 4
November - ? Most probably Spider-Man 4

2025

February - ? Probably Deadpool 3
May - ? probably Shang-Chi 2
July - ? Most probably X-Men (25th anniversary since the first live action movie)
November - ? Probably Eternals 2

2026

February - ? Probably the first Portman Thor solo movie
May - ? probably Doctor Strange 3
July - ? probably Nova (replacing the GOTG)
November - ? probably Black Panther 3

2027

February - ? probably Captain Marvel 3
May - Secret Wars: Part I
July - ? probably Blade 2
November - ? probably Spider-Man 5

2028

February - ? Maybe Namor
May - Secret Wars: Part II
July - ? probably Fantastic Four 2
November - ? probably Captain America 5

Nova is gonna be a series. I think the final slate is going to look quite different from this. We don't know if Natalie Portman is getting a solo and let's not forget the shows in this time as well. I think this will conclude quicker. Way more projects per year
 
I keep reading comments that misinterpret Wanda's turn in the movie; Wanda didn't turn evil she was corrupted by the Darkhold and that was established in the film many times; Illuminati Strange was aware of the dangers and had to be killed, we then had a fight between 616 Strange and a corrupted Strange.

Sure her actions were atrocious but wasn't really different than Bucky/Winter Soldier or Hawkeye under Loki controls or even Loki! They received redemption and a 2nd chance.

Wanda has become my favorite character in the MCU. She has such a tragic story - her parents were killed, she joined rebel groups and was then experimented and manipulated by Hydra; her brother died, as soon as she found a family in the Avengers she was deemed a threat by the government, got imprisioned, was on the run and had to kill the love of her life only for Thanos to undo it and kill him again; unbeknownst to her she created a reality where she had a family but was also controlled by Agatha and had to give that up.

She's the strongest being but with a weak psyche due to her grief and loss and that makes her susceptible and easy to manipulate.

The inclusion of Profesor X served many purposes. It introduced the concept of the X Men and Mutants, to represent a member of these groups (X Men, F4, Inhumans) in one scene together for the 1st time in cinema, to pay tribute to the actor and show Wanda strength.

The always optimistic and hopeful Profesor Xavier was there to help guide Strange. Just because these other Stranges were going down a certain path he didnt have to follow, he could trust others so he wouldn't have to be the one holding the knife and become a different Doctor Strange.


Tl;dr

The line - "Just because someone stumbles and loses their path, doesn't mean they're lost forever." Was as important for Doctor Strange as it was for Wanda's. The same sentiment carries over to Wanda and we saw in the end how she tried to redem herself for her mistakes and seemingly sacrificed herself and destroyed the Darkhold accross universes so she and others wouldn't be tempted.

Just because The Darkhold prophesied about her ruling or destroying realities she had to follow through, just because she fell and lost her path while corrupted does it mean she is lost forever and she too could be a different Scarlet Witch.

Those saying the Illuminati served no purpose missed out or overlooked the importance of the line in the context of the film. Dare I say it was as important as the great power line in NWH.
 
I keep seeing the "How can Wanda be redeem after what she did?" question meanwhile Loki exist. lol
I do think they've got a steeper hill to climb though, while Loki's actions were objectively horrifying, the movies downplayed it to make him a fun villain the audience could love. Wanda's turn as a villain however was played like a horror villain, pretty much everything she does here is meant to make the audience depressed, horrified and just severely uncomfortable in general, and I think that's gonna make it harder for audiences to get back in her corner.
 
What explanation do you need? The Darkhold corrupted her and that was made very clear in the fulm

Well obviously I get that (and mentioned it in my post anyway). But I mean emotional explanation. They establish early on about the Darkhold but it would've been nice to see little glimpses here and there of the inner conflict. I think I would've been more engaged if I felt, even in some small way, a little sad or sorry for Wanda. But by the time it came, we'd already seen her do some truly heinous things so it just ended up feeling a little more black and white.

And in her final moments, you don't even really get a glimpse of remorse for what she's done. It's all about the anguish of being seen as a monster by her kids... Not the crazy murders she's committed? It was just a lot to take in for a character we've previously been rooting for.
 
Great we finally know it‘s pronounced Shdon and no Katon
 
And that's a problem. Most of it happened offscreen and we're told this was the case after the fact. We didn't really see it happen.

Yeah, that's exactly it. And a real shame given we know how great Raimi is at really making sympathetic villains. I would've just liked to see more of that struggle for control.
 
For me it was really clear, that Wanda was possessed by the Darkhold and implicitly by Chton. Sinister Strange was also corrupted by the Darkhold.

I doubt we‘ll never see Chton and hear of him again. But maybe we‘ll get the Fear Lords or Hell Lords in DS3 with Dormammu at the lead. This could bring Chton back (and Nightmare, Mephisto, Dweller, Hela…)
 
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I keep reading comments that misinterpret Wanda's turn in the movie; Wanda didn't turn evil she was corrupted by the Darkhold and that was established in the film many times; Illuminati Strange was aware of the dangers and had to be killed, we then had a fight between 616 Strange and a corrupted Strange.

Sure her actions were atrocious but wasn't really different than Bucky/Winter Soldier or Hawkeye under Loki controls or even Loki! They received redemption and a 2nd chance.

Wanda has become my favorite character in the MCU. She has such a tragic story - her parents were killed, she joined rebel groups and was then experimented and manipulated by Hydra; her brother died, as soon as she found a family in the Avengers she was deemed a threat by the government, got imprisioned, was on the run and had to kill the love of her life only for Thanos to undo it and kill him again; unbeknownst to her she created a reality where she had a family but was also controlled by Agatha and had to give that up.

She's the strongest being but with a weak psyche due to her grief and loss and that makes her susceptible and easy to manipulate.

The inclusion of Profesor X served many purposes. It introduced the concept of the X Men and Mutants, to represent a member of these groups (X Men, F4, Inhumans) in one scene together for the 1st time in cinema, to pay tribute to the actor and show Wanda strength.

The always optimistic and hopeful Profesor Xavier was there to help guide Strange. Just because these other Stranges were going down a certain path he didnt have to follow, he could trust others so he wouldn't have to be the one holding the knife and become a different Doctor Strange.


Tl;dr

The line - "Just because someone stumbles and loses their path, doesn't mean they're lost forever." Was as important for Doctor Strange as it was for Wanda's. The same sentiment carries over to Wanda and we saw in the end how she tried to redem herself for her mistakes and seemingly sacrificed herself and destroyed the Darkhold accross universes so she and others wouldn't be tempted.

Just because The Darkhold prophesied about her ruling or destroying realities she had to follow through, just because she fell and lost her path while corrupted does it mean she is lost forever and she too could be a different Scarlet Witch.

Those saying the Illuminati served no purpose missed out or overlooked the importance of the line in the context of the film. Dare I say it was as important as the great power line in NWH.

I disagree with your characterisation of Wanda and her descent.

In WandaVision, Wanda enslaved and tortured an entire town full of people because she couldnt deal with grief....before she got the Darkhold.

She chose to use the Darkhold. No one forced her to utilise its power.
No doubt it corrupted her further, but she was already willing to do evil things for selfish ends.

Sure her actions were atrocious but wasn't really different than Bucky/Winter Soldier or Hawkeye under Loki controls or even Loki! They received redemption and a 2nd chance.

There is a clear distinction between her conscious choice to use Darkhold and the actions of Bucky and Hawkeye who were both under the control of other people and had no ability to make their own decisions. Their actions were not selfish or even evil...because they weren't making conscious decisions.

You could argue that the Darkhold corrupted her, or maybe had some control over her. But such an argument is weakened by the difference between her use of the Darkhold and Dr Strange's.

Wanda uses it to possess other versions of herself and commit mass murder, in her pursuit of America Chavez's power.

Strange uses the Darkhold to possess another version of himself to try to stop Wanda from murdering America, taking her power and going on to do other evil deeds.

Wanda's aim is a selfish one, Strange is motivated by the greater good.

Were her actions different from Loki's ? Well, both were party to mass murder - although Wanda more directly as she killed a lot of people personally, while Loki led the Chitauri invasion.

Was Loki redeemed ? I'm honestly not sure. For every time he helped Thor or did something morally good, he also seemed to do something selfish or evil. Thanos found the Asgardians and slaughtered them because Loki had grabbed the tessaract/space stone. Did he know that would bring Thanos down on them ? Unclear, although Loki did work for Thanos. Who can say for sure?

I'm only referring to the movie version of Loki, not the Loki from his series - but if you think that series redeemed him, I won't argue with you, because I honestly don't know.

So who's worse Loki or Wanda ? Well, Wanda posed a threat to the entire multiverse, according to Wong.

Was Wanda redeemed? Well destroying the Darkhold is a pretty big deal. How does that weigh up against all of her murders and the whole Westfirld thing ? Honestly I don't know. For me, she's still a villain.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why you like Wanda as a character - because she's a great character, but to me she ends her life ( assuming she's dead, and that's probably very unlikely) as a villain. She does terrible things for selfish reasons, and uses her grief to justify her actions.

I thought Elisabeth Olson did a great job, despite terrible material, to make Wanda compelling.
It was a very strong performance - and a few times outshined Cumberbatch. Have to say I loved watching her massacre the Illuminati. I have tons of problems with the writing of that scene ( like why didn't she just crush Captain Carter like a bug, the way she crushed Thanos in Endgame? Why bother killing her with her shield?) but not at all with seeing Wanda take them all out.

I wish Wanda had owned her villain turn - she could have been the next Thanos.
 
Wanda uses it to possess other versions of herself and commit mass murder, in her pursuit of America Chavez's power.

Strange uses the Darkhold to possess another version of himself to try to stop Wanda from murdering America, taking her power and going on to do other evil deeds.

Wanda's aim is a selfish one, Strange is motivated by the greater good.

I mean, other Doctor Strange also used the Darkhold to sacrifice an entire universe "for the greater good"

And other other Doctor Strange used it to dreamwalk and kill other versions of himself over jealousy that they could be with Christine and he couldn't, a selfish act.

I think the Darkhold probably tries to corrupt people through whatever is easily corruptable about the individual's state of mind.
In case of Strange that would usually be his willingness to sacrifice things "for the greater good" because there "is no other way" being corrupted into him seeing devastating options as viable and dismissing potential less harmful alternatives and thus reigning destruction in the name of the "greater good". Or in cases where he's grieving over losing Christine it would corrupt his grief into a debilitating jealousy of anyone that has what he can't have and allow him to act out revenge fantasies.

In case of Wanda the fact that she obtained it at a point in her life where she had lost so much and had such a vulnerable emotional state as she had, combined with the fact that she was isolating herself with the book for a prolonged period, probably meant that she got more corrupted.

The main Strange not being as corrupted yet probably has to do with him not having had as much exposure to it after only using it once, as well as us not yet having seen what consequences he may suffer, as hinted by the ending.

Keep in mind that it's estimated that WandaVision takes place in November 2023, No Way Home in December 2024 and Multiverse of Madness is after No Way Home. Meaning that Wanda may have been alone with the Darkhold for over a year. I don't think that's comparable with Strange's single use.
 
Also keep in mind that Wanda ultimately stopped what she was doing and destroyed the Darkhold out of her own free will. That alone proves that the corruption of the Darkhold is certainly not comparable to being brainwashed by the mind stone like Hawkeye. Winter Soldier is somewhere in the middle because the brainwashing used on him wasn't entirely effective, but Hydra got around that by just repeating the procedure over and over and over again meaning the only time he really had free will was at the end of TWS when there was no one left to drag him back and brainwash him again.
 
Well obviously I get that (and mentioned it in my post anyway). But I mean emotional explanation. They establish early on about the Darkhold but it would've been nice to see little glimpses here and there of the inner conflict. I think I would've been more engaged if I felt, even in some small way, a little sad or sorry for Wanda. But by the time it came, we'd already seen her do some truly heinous things so it just ended up feeling a little more black and white.

And in her final moments, you don't even really get a glimpse of remorse for what she's done. It's all about the anguish of being seen as a monster by her kids... Not the crazy murders she's committed? It was just a lot to take in for a character we've previously been rooting for.
That point makes sense. These are horrible things even if the variant kids happened to be happy with them.
 
People always seem to forget that Loki attempted the genocide of the Frost Giants in Thor 1.
Literally attempted to wipe out Jotunheim. Kill an entire race.

The equivalent of the Empire blowing up Alderon. Potentially worse, because Jotunheim is literally every frost giant ever. It’s not like there’s hundreds of other planets in the galaxy with Frost Giants living on.

On the list of horrendous crimes Loki has committed, that’s almost certainly the worst.
 

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