Is Anyone Else Getting a Little Tired of The Berlanti DC Shows?

[Slade W]

Yes Darhk was great ans I agree on Ra's too, Matt Nable gave a good performance I felt but the story didn't work, they dropped the ball on that one.

It is a shame that Darhk, who is arguably as good as Slade and Reverse-Flash, was wasted in the worst season of Arrow. I wish they showed his time in the LOA. I guess they didn't want to take time away from Donna and Felicity.

 

[BH/HHH]

It is a shame that Darhk, who is arguably as good as Slade and Reverse-Flash, was wasted in the worst season of Arrow. I wish they showed his time in the LOA. I guess they didn't want to take time away from Donna and Felicity.

Well he's gonna be on Legends of Tomorrow season 2 so we might get some of that LOA stuff.

 

[Slade W]

Well he's gonna be on Legends of Tomorrow season 2 so we might get some of that LOA stuff.

I really hope so. Hopefully that is the reason they did not show it last season.

 

[JKKS085]

I'm done with Arrow since the season 4 mid-season finale, I stopped watching Legends of Tomorrow after the dreadful "Star City 2046" episode and I never got past Supergirl's pilot. So yeah I think I'm getting a little tired with the Berlanti shows.

Although I really love The Flash despite the irritating secondary characters and the soap opera romance and I will probably take a look at the first episodes of Supergirl second season (but that is mainly for Superman).

 

[BH/HHH]

I really hope so. Hopefully that is the reason they did not show it last season.

Hopefully

I'm done with Arrow since the season 4 mid-season finale, I stopped watching Legends of Tomorrow after the dreadful "Star City 2046" episode and I never got past Supergirl's pilot. So yeah I think I'm getting a little tired with the Berlanti shows.

Although I really love The Flash despite the irritating secondary characters and the soap opera romance and I will probably take a look at the first episodes of Supergirl second season (but that is mainly for Superman).

I thought 'Star 2046' was fantastic myself, only slightly let dowm by the choice of actor for Slade's son.

 

[JKKS085]

I thought 'Star 2046' was fantastic myself, only slightly let dowm by the choice of actor for Slade's son.

I couldn't get past that poor casting choice, the horrible make up job and fake beard on Stephen Amell, the focus on Cold and Heat Wave and the 2046 gang that belongs right there with the UV paint thugs in Batman & Robin. And again the forced love triangle that comes out of nowhere. That was a lot more than I could take and I genuinely wanted to like that show. I love Firestorm and Atom (and I think Routh did a bang up job with the material), I was really glad to see Caity Lotz involved in another DC show and I am sucker for time travel. But they completely dropped the ball.

 

[DrCosmic]

Except in the comic books Mystique has traditionally worn clothing too, a long tunic, and not even blue clothing. In the movies she is buck naked. Indigo wears a blue catsuit on the TV show. So still the only thing they have in common is blue skin.
Plus Mystique has straight hair. Indigo braids her hair in Supergirl. And Indigo has smooth skin, red lights and grooves on her forehead. Mystique has bumpy skin, no grooves, no lights. So still not seeing the resemblance other than having a similar shade of blue skin. Which was likely done because a dark color looks more sinister than bright purple.

You think Mystique and Indigo were the only females who plotted to take over the world with a man?
All female character can fight anymore. Even Harley Quinn. Indigo can fight so they can show her and Supergirl fighting. Because Mystique can fight is she ripping off Catwoman?
Also can Mystique travel though the internet like Indigo does?
Mystique can morph into other body forms. Could Indigo morph into another person? If so they never showed it.

Same thing with Red Tornado nothing like the comic books. Just someone for Supergirl to fight. Oh, but he got compared to Vision a lot too. It just seems like any DC character that vaguely resembles a Marvel movie character is dubbed a rip-off. Vartox and Jemm were nothing like Vartox and Jemm from the comic books either. It's just they had no equivalent characters in a Marvel Movie.

Hmmm... you're changing the subject a lot, talking about comic book Mystique and Red Tornado. And then you're doing a lot of nitpicking like with hairstyles as though ripping off means an exact copy, and you know better than that.

Movie Mystique and CBS Indigo are definitely the only martial arts happy blue females with red hair that are the right hand and love interest of bad guys who want to save the world by taking it over the world for their race. If you can't point out a third, then maybe the idea that these are just random changes, and not changes to be like Mystique.

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, let's ask this:

Which of these two charaters:

Can you honestly say inspired the look, feel and storyline of this character:

Ra's wanted Oliver to replace him because he survived the fight (and in fact, there was a legend about that very thing). If Ra's just tore him a new one, whisked him off to Nanda Parbat, and revived him so he could brainwash him and make him his heir, it would be a whiplash-inducing turn.

Then, on top of that, the whole idea of brainwashing your successor makes no sense. I mean, okay, there's a certain internal logic to the idea that this group hasn't evolved much in all of this time because it hasn't allowed any outside perspective to penetrate it, but Season 3 left me feeling that the League of Assassins was a completely backwards model for an organization that couldn't actually survive in real life. So I feel like (and this ties into my desire for comeuppance) someone should have pointed out to Ra's how screwed up his ideology was before the end of the season.

It seems like you're talking about what makes for a great villain in general. My position is that once Ra's established himself as an obnoxious presence, the only thing he was good for as a character (not a plot device) was seeing him defeated and humiliated. In that scenario, the more he annoys me by succeeding, the more he needs to suffer in the end to justify the annoyance with a big payoff. If he'd been defeated early on without having accomplished much of anything, I would have had satisfaction in the sense of, "Yeah, f*** that guy." Having him largely getting his way throughout the season only to kind of lose but also kind of win and die with a smile at the end didn't deliver a proper "Yeah, f*** that guy." So in the end, he was annoying until he was gone.

What I would have done (without changing things drastically) would be: Oliver pretends to be brainwashed, and Ra's buys into it and thinks he's winning (same as before). Ra's attack on the city fails more badly than it did. Oliver gives Ra's some lecture about how his failure was the failure of the League of Assassins and its entire belief system. He points out that Ra's didn't realize that Oliver was tricking him, but he also had no advisors, no one to point out when he was making a mistake. This ties into Oliver learning not to try to handle things by himself, which ties the season together more. He tells Ra's that he lost because his was one group mind working against several strong individuals, that the League is a dinosaur that has no place in the modern world. They fight, but it's not Oliver losing but coming back at the end and winning. His victory is more decisive, he severely injures Ra's, and then he gets shot by the police and falls down the waterfall.

Ra's gets away, only to run into Malcolm. Malcolm reveals that he poisoned Oliver's blade just in case he wasn't willing to finish the job. Ra's can barely defend himself between his injuries and the poison. Malcolm chops off his hand and takes the ring. He gloats that he's going to become the new Ra's and do things his way before finishing Ra's off.

Yeah, f*** that guy.

Interesting. That would have been better as an ending, but the middle still needs a lot of help, that was the problem. Even for your idea to work, for us to care about the League's imbalance, we have to spend more time with the League, and more meaningful time. This takes time away from same ol' same ol' and puts Oliver in interesting new positions, with new decisions.

I agree brainwashing your heir is dumb, which is why I would have flipped it, to give the middle of the season escalation. Oliver earns' Ra's' admiration on the mountaintop when he's killed. Gets revived in secret, not reported, we see the boot cut, but no acknowlegement of Oliver for 2-3 episodes. Meanwhile, Ra's has a new bodyguard, Ubu, masked, and he's just the best and rawest. He decimates Team Arrow, who can handle the vigilante work (new dynamics on old cases) but can't handle the League (because they never get nerfed). The eventually unmask this Ubu and of course it's Oliver, but he can't go through with the killshot, because The Power of Heart, so you spend a couple episodes with Oliver battling his programming, as we are introduced to the League cast: Dark Maseo, Conflicted Nyssa, Disgraced Malcolm and their betrayals and dark missions and what not.

Meanwhile fresh char-dev for Star City crew. Oliver overcomes his programming, strikes at Ra's, is withstood, and is then offered a seat at the table and the heirship, not because of some ad-hoc prophecy, but because he's shown he's stronger of will than anyone Ra's' has ever known, and willing to kill (in this case Ra's') for the greater good. Oliver goes along with the trick, but keeps getting in deeper, betraying his friends (the Lyla kidnapping was a nice touch), actually falling for Nyssa, having to face real moral quandries (people he didn't kill earlier hurting folks, deciding whether or not to kill a heartless dictator in front of his child), all that. Meanwhile Red Arrow's been doing the things in Star City but Brick has been running roughshod over them, corrupting Star City, where the league is now positioned to kill off all the corrupt officials. Oliver might even seem to kill one. Oliver springs his trap, shows that the deaths he used to prove himself to the league were false, shows up as, obviously, the Green Arrow, and then pretty much what you said as an ending.

The point is, not so much whether Ra's' was annoying or not and why, but that there are so many options here in terms of storylines, and yet... what do we get?

Damien Darhk was excellent too. I also liked Ra's, but they did not use him anywhere near as well as they could have done.

People liked Darhk? I thought he was a horrible villain on every level. The only thing he did that was remotely interesting was cripple Felicity for three episodes.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

People liked Darhk? I thought he was a horrible villain on every level. The only thing he did that was remotely interesting was cripple Felicity for three episodes.

Alas, she got better. I'd probably still be watching Arrow casually if she had died.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

By the way... Misty Knight in Luke Cage is how Laurel should have been.

 

[Primal Slayer]

By the way... Misty Knight in Luke Cage is how Laurel should have been.

They were never going to let her stand on equal ground to Oliver. Taking one of DCs top females and putting her at the bottom of the barrel is one of the worst things to happen in a comic book show.

 

[Slade W]

People will disagree, but I loved most of Laurels journey, including seasons 1 and 2. She was a great character IMO, even though they did not have her like she is in the comics as much as people wanted. I had little complaints about Katie's performance (which I thought was great) or what the writers did with her. Apart from killing her of course. I didn't like that very much. That's good ol' uncie Guggy and aunty Wendy for ya.

 

[Zant]

I just saw the Vixen animated stuff and I enjoyed it a lot. Looking forward to season 2. Vixen and her powers looked great and were nothing like the cheap knock off we got in Arrow. I think these shows may be more tolerable if they were animated.

 

[Fincher]

Interesting. That would have been better as an ending, but the middle still needs a lot of help, that was the problem. Even for your idea to work, for us to care about the League's imbalance, we have to spend more time with the League, and more meaningful time. This takes time away from same ol' same ol' and puts Oliver in interesting new positions, with new decisions.

I agree brainwashing your heir is dumb, which is why I would have flipped it, to give the middle of the season escalation. Oliver earns' Ra's' admiration on the mountaintop when he's killed. Gets revived in secret, not reported, we see the boot cut, but no acknowlegement of Oliver for 2-3 episodes. Meanwhile, Ra's has a new bodyguard, Ubu, masked, and he's just the best and rawest. He decimates Team Arrow, who can handle the vigilante work (new dynamics on old cases) but can't handle the League (because they never get nerfed). The eventually unmask this Ubu and of course it's Oliver, but he can't go through with the killshot, because The Power of Heart, so you spend a couple episodes with Oliver battling his programming, as we are introduced to the League cast: Dark Maseo, Conflicted Nyssa, Disgraced Malcolm and their betrayals and dark missions and what not.

Meanwhile fresh char-dev for Star City crew. Oliver overcomes his programming, strikes at Ra's, is withstood, and is then offered a seat at the table and the heirship, not because of some ad-hoc prophecy, but because he's shown he's stronger of will than anyone Ra's' has ever known, and willing to kill (in this case Ra's') for the greater good. Oliver goes along with the trick, but keeps getting in deeper, betraying his friends (the Lyla kidnapping was a nice touch), actually falling for Nyssa, having to face real moral quandries (people he didn't kill earlier hurting folks, deciding whether or not to kill a heartless dictator in front of his child), all that. Meanwhile Red Arrow's been doing the things in Star City but Brick has been running roughshod over them, corrupting Star City, where the league is now positioned to kill off all the corrupt officials. Oliver might even seem to kill one. Oliver springs his trap, shows that the deaths he used to prove himself to the league were false, shows up as, obviously, the Green Arrow, and then pretty much what you said as an ending.

The point is, not so much whether Ra's' was annoying or not and why, but that there are so many options here in terms of storylines, and yet... what do we get?

If brainwashing had to come into it, I'd have him brainwash Roy. It wasn't like he was doing that much in Season 3, anyway. Roy overhears Oliver and Felicity talking and climbs the mountain to claim responsibility himself (pushing up the Roy sacrifices himself plotline). Oliver gets there in time to see Roy stabbed and then challenges Ra's. Ra's knocks Oliver out but doesn't kill him. Then later, while Thea's getting through to a brainwashed Roy, Oliver holds Ra's off. He still loses, but does better than last time and impresses Ra's enough to make him want him as his heir.

However, even if we came up with a plot that everyone here thought was awesome, we'd still be stuck with what we got. So on that point I agree, they could have done better. Although, even though I like Season 4 more, one thing I'll say in Season 3's favor is that at least the main villain plot had turns in it. In Season 4, Darhk was going to destroy the city, and then he was going to destroy the world, and for a little while he was in prison. I do like him, but they didn't give him much to work with in terms of storyline.

 

[Primal Slayer]

People will disagree, but I loved most of Laurels journey, including seasons 1 and 2. She was a great character IMO, even though they did not have her like she is in the comics as much as people wanted. I had little complaints about Katie's performance (which I thought was great) or what the writers did with her. Apart from killing her of course. I didn't like that very much. That's good ol' uncie Guggy and aunty Wendy for ya.

I could've lived with her being the last to suit up, but martial arts should've been a big part of the character from the beginning.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

They were never going to let her stand on equal ground to Oliver. Taking one of DCs top females and putting her at the bottom of the barrel is one of the worst things to happen in a comic book show.

Yeah, Arrow took DC's top superheroine after Wonder Woman and ruined her to build up a D-Lister who is nothing like her source material. And made them both suck in the process. Dinah was only salvageable because of the actress.

They also shat on Manu Bennett's Deathstroke to build up Thea. They ruined Ra's too. If Darhk was actually someone of note in DC they would've ruined him too.

More often then not they don't know what they're doing and any successes they somehow happen to trip over are completely accidental.

 

[The Batman]

What are your thoughts?

For me, there are a lot of Superhero shows competing for the attention of the audience, and there are only so many hours in the day.

Why watch 22 episodes a season of a show like S3/S4 Arrow when I can enjoy a better made product from one of the Netflix shows?

At the moment, The Flash is the only Berlanti show I feel I need to watch.

 

[Micromind]

Why would anyone watch and enjoy a "Better made product" if one is not a fan of the character and has Zero interest in it ?

 

[BH/HHH]

Why would anyone watch and enjoy a "Better made product" if one is not a fan of the character and has Zero interest in it ?

I think it's the modern day really, the Internet has given propose a voice and done would rather complain about something.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Hmmm... you're changing the subject a lot, talking about comic book Mystique and Red Tornado. And then you're doing a lot of nitpicking like with hairstyles as though ripping off means an exact copy, and you know better than that.

Movie Mystique and CBS Indigo are definitely the only martial arts happy blue females with red hair that are the right hand and love interest of bad guys who want to save the world by taking it over the world for their race. If you can't point out a third, then maybe the idea that these are just random changes, and not changes to be like Mystique.

I would say it is more a case of convergent evolution. Like White Sharks, Tunas, Dolphins and Ichthyosaurs all look similar because they all live in the water and hunt to live.
The Mystique character in the movies and the Indigo character on TV look similar because they serve the same role in those versions. I seriously doubt Berlanti and company
intentionally decided to model Indigo after a character in some mildly successful Marvel movies. Some people still refer to dolphins as fish, so it is understandable that some
people would confuse the two. Especially fans of Marvel movies, who seem to think only Marvel can make super hero movies. But just as biologists need to point out a dolphin
is a mammal, not a fish, we need to point out that although they look similar, Mystique and Indigo are not the same character nor were they ever intended to be.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Why would anyone watch and enjoy a "Better made product" if one is not a fan of the character and has Zero interest in it ?

My feelings exactly. Plus I don't have to pay to watch the CW shows. I would have to pay to watch Netflix or break the law by pirating them.
Plus who defines what is better? I think the Berlanti shows are great, especially Supergirl.

 

[BH/HHH]

Netflix Marvel shows are overrated IMO, Daredevil Season One was good but Jessica Jones and anything that wasn't Punisher related in Daredevil Season Two was dull as dishwater IMO. I wouldn't take a single Netflix show over any of the DC CW shows.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Netflix Marvel shows are overrated IMO, Daredevil Season One was good but Jessica Jones and anything that wasn't Punisher related in Daredevil Season Two was dull as dishwater IMO. I wouldn't take a single Netflix show over any of the DC CW shows.

I watched a couple of episodes of Jessica Jones with a friend because it was
supposed to be sooooo much better than Supergirl and I just didn't get it.
It just seemed boring to me too. There was more fun, action, humor, and
likeable characters in the first 10 minutes of the pilot of Supergirl than in
that entire hour of Jessica Jones. And Supergirl consistently got better as
the season went on. And I'm not just being a DC fanboy, because Agent
Carter was also a lot more fun and likeable.

 

[BH/HHH]

I watched a couple of episodes of Jessica Jones with a friend because it was
supposed to be sooooo much better than Supergirl and I just didn't get it.
It just seemed boring to me too. There was more fun, action, humor, and
likeable characters in the first 10 minutes of the pilot of Supergirl than in
that entire hour of Jessica Jones. And Supergirl consistently got better as
the season went on. And I'm not just being a DC fanboy, because Agent
Carter was also a lot more fun and likeable.

Yeah I agree, mines not DC bias either here as I love the Daredevil character and thought season one was quality. Jessica Jones I ws just bored, I even thought this would have made a decent 2 hour film but as a series it just went on and on and on.

 

[DrCosmic]

If brainwashing had to come into it, I'd have him brainwash Roy. It wasn't like he was doing that much in Season 3, anyway. Roy overhears Oliver and Felicity talking and climbs the mountain to claim responsibility himself (pushing up the Roy sacrifices himself plotline). Oliver gets there in time to see Roy stabbed and then challenges Ra's. Ra's knocks Oliver out but doesn't kill him. Then later, while Thea's getting through to a brainwashed Roy, Oliver holds Ra's off. He still loses, but does better than last time and impresses Ra's enough to make him want him as his heir.

However, even if we came up with a plot that everyone here thought was awesome, we'd still be stuck with what we got. So on that point I agree, they could have done better. Although, even though I like Season 4 more, one thing I'll say in Season 3's favor is that at least the main villain plot had turns in it. In Season 4, Darhk was going to destroy the city, and then he was going to destroy the world, and for a little while he was in prison. I do like him, but they didn't give him much to work with in terms of storyline.

Seeing Oliver defeated, humbled, broken and possibly dead was the high point of the season. It was the promise of genuine conflict and stakes that matter. Without that moment, all of season 3 falls apart and becomes meaningless, just more spinning tires and rehashing. Roy repeating his season 2 plotline isn't worth watching. Roy going out of the series on top, as someone who has been a competent lead was the strongest and most interesting storyline they could have done with him, to actually have him complete his evolution to comics-level status.

That's a great example of the procedural vs serial conflict that the Berlanti shows create. They want to do same old same old, but they create the expectation of advancement and operate in a culture that likes stories to advance, deepen, complicate and grow. For many fans of these shows, seeing these characters re-do previous seasons does not tire them out one bit. They want that comfort the same way someone who watches NCIS religiously never tires of seeing Jethro Gibbs solve the case in the last ten minutes by some random stroke of genius *again*.

I would say it is more a case of convergent evolution. Like White Sharks, Tunas, Dolphins and Ichthyosaurs all look similar because they all live in the water and hunt to live.

The Mystique character in the movies and the Indigo character on TV look similar because they serve the same role in those versions. I seriously doubt Berlanti and company
intentionally decided to model Indigo after a character in some mildly successful Marvel movies. Some people still refer to dolphins as fish, so it is understandable that some
people would confuse the two. Especially fans of Marvel movies, who seem to think only Marvel can make super hero movies. But just as biologists need to point out a dolphin
is a mammal, not a fish, we need to point out that although they look similar, Mystique and Indigo are not the same character nor were they ever intended to be.

How the heck does matching colors and skill sets help fulfill that role? Why would Indigo, a trojan horse good guy serve the same role as Mystique, a right hand femme fatale in the first place? Your suspicions are based on evolutionary theory and not television reality. You'd rather talk about Dolphins, but even Dolphins can play "one of these things are not like the other."

I just saw the Vixen animated stuff and I enjoyed it a lot. Looking forward to season 2. Vixen and her powers looked great and were nothing like the cheap knock off we got in Arrow. I think these shows may be more tolerable if they were animated.

This would be epic. There is a kind of consequence-lite theme and a deep need for higher production values in these shows that lends itself well to animation.

Alas, she got better. I'd probably still be watching Arrow casually if she had died.

She got 100% better in a jiffy. And yes, if they had had some kind of consequence there, I wouldn't be so tired.

By the way... Misty Knight in Luke Cage is how Laurel should have been.

Still watching, but I wouldn't mind that at all. I feel like with her (and to a greater degree Iris) they set up the character for greatness and then just refused to cash in on any of it. Her season 3 arc of becoming a vigilante definitely could have happened in Season 1. They even had her floor a couple large guys with her skills in Season 1. They then decided to forget about that and make her weak and pointless. How is this okay?

Why would anyone watch and enjoy a "Better made product" if one is not a fan of the character and has Zero interest in it ?

Quality creates fans, and creates interest. Relying on fandom to carry low quality is a losing proposition. Just like the quality of the original comics created fans, shows should aim to do the same, not simply cash in on goodwill created by someone else.

 

[marvelrobbins]

Netflix Marvel shows are overrated IMO, Daredevil Season One was good but Jessica Jones and anything that wasn't Punisher related in Daredevil Season Two was dull as dishwater IMO. I wouldn't take a single Netflix show over any of the DC CW shows.

Here is problem.most of characters on netflix i have little intrest in.

While batman is really only DC character i collected comics of.over the years i
became more familar with green arrow and flash than i ever did with most
of netflix characters.

unpopular oporion but i think netflix is really a dumping ground for marvel characters they have no intention of making films of.

CW is basicly doing the silver age of DC with some modern elements.

arrow even after complents is still must see tv.where daredevil and jessica jones i only watched first 2 episodes.

I am also very happy DC is letting go of embrogs which plagured Smallville and animated justice league unlimited and The batman.we will have 2 versions of barry allen.and they allowed superman to be on supergirl.

I also like how the flash brings on actors from 1990 show and on supergirl they have had superman vets on it.

LOT is having their own version of the legion of doom.a Villain team is something that has escaped marvel.many once would have thought masters of evil would have shown up in avengers film but alass no.

Even with faults i will take cw shows over all of marvel tv shows.and even as huge X-Men fans i more excited for the cw shows than I am Legion.