Is Anyone Else Getting a Little Tired of The Berlanti DC Shows?

[Slade W]

Like I said earlier, objectively, I would say the Netflix shows are better and appeal to more people, but I, personally, prefer Arrow and Flash at their best. They have done a better job getting me invested in their characters and universe. I care about and enjoy the characters in the Arrowverse more than I do the Netflix shows. DD is excellent too, IMO, even if it is not my favourite show.

 

[Luke234]

It's funny that there's a flip flop ( in my opinion) dceu movies are more serious and their tv is campy while marvel movies are campy and the series are serious.

 

[Slade W]

I wouldn't call Arrow campy. It has a serious tone a lot of the time, but of course there is humour in there as well. In fact, I wouldn't call Flash campy either, but it is definitely less serious than Arrow for the most part. Marvel movies are not campy either tbh.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Flash is definitely campy. I'm waiting for DC shows to leave the CW; I'm crossing my fingers for the rumored HBO show.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Arrow is hit or miss (really enjoyed the first two seasons, and it's been back and forth since), and Legends is fun and cheesy but not great.

Flash may have dipped a bit in season two, but season one was awesome, and season three is off to a great start.

 

[BestGirl]

The first episode of Flash's season 3 was seriously awful.

 

[Bayne]

Supergirl's season 2 premiere, on the other hand, was actually surprisingly good. A big improvement over season 1.

 

[kguillou]

I just wish they could write the villains better. This is a problem in all the shows, I feel. There are some standouts, no doubt, but the villains in these shows come off....TOO comic booky. They're these maniacal, cackling evil-doers who are bad for the sake of being bad. I wish these shows would spend more time to build these characters up and show WHY they become villains. Lets see their tragic backstories, give us a chance to maybe even sympathize with them. Basically the Batman TAS and Spectacular Spider-man approach.

 

[BH/HHH]

I like villains been bad for bad sakes, I think we've had to many films etc where the villains are relatable. I like a villain just been bad because.

 

[Slade W]

I like villains been bad for bad sakes, I think we've had to many films etc where the villains are relatable. I like a villain just been bad because.

I have been thinking this for a while too. I would like a villain that is pure evil and not redeemable as well. Hopefully good reasons can be given for why he/she is that way though, as a lot of times, characters that are just pure evil are not very interesting, like Trigon on the TT cartoon. I remember they limited him making a full appearance until the last few episodes, and I imagine that is because due to him being extremely powerful and completely and irredeemably evil, there is not much to do with him, other than destroy. The Joker is one of the few character that is completely evil, yet still very interesting.

 

[BH/HHH]

I have been thinking this for a while too. I would like a villain that is pure evil and not redeemable as well. Hopefully good reasons can be given for why he/she is that way though, as a lot of times, characters that are just pure evil are not very interesting, like Trigon on the TT cartoon. I remember they limited him making a full appearance until the last few episodes, and I imagine that is because due to him being extremely powerful and completely and irredeemably evil, there is not much to do with him, other than destroy. The Joker is one of the few character that is completely evil, yet still very interesting.

Yes, I mean there is room for both, take Slade Wilson in Arrow it was all because of his live for Shado. That made him relatable in a way cause you could see why he did it. Then take Reverse Flash in the Flash, he's just evil, he hates Barry and wants to destroy him. Both are great villains but both in opposite sides of the villain spectrum.

 

[metaphysician]

Honestly, I think the season premieres and first couple eps are firing on. . . if not all cylinders, at least the majority of them. If they can keep up the energy, this season should be good stuff.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Honestly, I think the season premieres and first couple eps are firing on. . . if not all cylinders, at least the majority of them. If they can keep up the energy, this season should be good stuff.

Yup, so far so good. Arrow has had 2 strong episodes, The Flash followed up the premiere with a better 2nd episode and Supergirl S2E1 was really good and with more Superman and Metallo it'll get even better. D

 

[Slade W]

Something funny I noticed recently is that a lot of people, myself included, have dismissed seasons 3 and 4 of Arrow as outright bad, yet in most of the episode threads for those two seasons, the majority of comments are positive and ratings out of 10 are good. It seems them messing up key moments in the season, certain decisions taken in some episodes, and storylines and scenes in some episodes focusing too much on things that people do not like, such as Oliver and Felicity's relationship, is enough to ruin the whole season for a lot of people.

 

[godisawesome]

Something funny I noticed recently is that a lot of people, myself included, have dismissed seasons 3 and 4 of Arrow as outright bad, yet in most of the episode threads for those two seasons, the majority of comments are positive and ratings out of 10 are good. It seems them messing up key moments in the season, certain decisions taken in some episodes, and storylines and scenes in some episodes focusing too much on things that people do not like, such as Oliver and Felicity's relationship, is enough to ruin the whole season for a lot of people.

I can really only comment on Season 3, since I didn't watch much of 4, though I probably will later.

Season 3's issue was that it almost immediately utilized long, multi-episode arcs, and that those arcs largely suffered from one key flaw or another. Individual episodes could be good, but holistically they fell apart. Seasons 1 and 2 had flaws in their main stories as well, but they were both limited in number and in impact: the love triangle for Season 1 fell apart in execution, but was ended by Tommy's heroic death, and while Slade and Shado never really fell in love, Mirakuru had driven Slade insane, so his ramblings weren't nearly as impacted by that mistake.

Season 3 was beset by a combination of lazy writing, predictable plotting, wasted potential, and inconsistent characterization:

-The biggest issue with their long-term plan for the season was that they did almost nothing to disguise the fact they were ripping off a Batman vs Ra's Al Ghul plotline, and then tacked on a sorry ending for it as well. Seasons 1 and 2 had at least remixed their ideas: Malcolm is Tommy's father figure instead of Oliver's and succeeds in ruining the Glades, Slade is the antagonist of two timelines and has a viscerally personal history with Oliver. In contrast, Season 3 literally does a beat for beat copy of a Batman story, and ends with an unspectacular climax.
-Aside from the predictable nature of the main Ra's plotline, everyone on these boards saw Sara's death as a fridging for Laurel's benefit. It was blatant, unimaginative, and wasn't helped by how stupid it's reveal was in The Climb. And while Laurel improved during the Brick arc, we had to put up with her going through a boring revenge story and impersonating her dead sister bit. You could have had Black Canary without killing her wildly popular predecessor, and should have at least had a better plan for how to execute Sara.
- Merlyn was a mess. This guy has a triple digit body count of civilians, including his own son and Oliver's best friend and father. He's prime arch-nemesis material, and he seems to have become that eventually. But the iron was hot the second he and Oliver met, and they wasted him by having him both be defeatable for Oliver but somehow too dangerous to imprison (unlike, say, Slade), trying to portray him as a loving father towards Thea while also being ruthlessly selfish enough to drug her into a personal weapon, clever enough to become the new Ra's but reliant on everyone making stupid decisions and only surviving because of luck anyway, and just generally a Villain Sue.
-They wasted the potential from The Climb in regards to Oliver himself and their season arc. It was decent enough for the other characters, but was pathetic by having Oliver just survive. You could have used the Lazarus Pit. Mirakuru, or any one of a dozen things, and instead he just needs a bandaid?!?
-They wasted Slade, Wildcat, and Katana. That's just sad.

 

[BH/HHH]

Season 3 started well enough, it was actually pretty consistent right up to the end of the Climb. It was when it came back after the break it started to slide, then Season 4 went too light and concentrated far to much on Olicity. Given the way Arrow season 5 has started it seems they may have learned their lesson but it could easily just turn weak again.

Although I will say for any show to top what Arrow Season 2 was, was always going to be a hard task. Arrow Season 2 was Superhero TV at its finest so they were always going to dip after.

 

[Slade W]

I can really only comment on Season 3, since I didn't watch much of 4, though I probably will later.

Season 3's issue was that it almost immediately utilized long, multi-episode arcs, and that those arcs largely suffered from one key flaw or another. Individual episodes could be good, but holistically they fell apart. Seasons 1 and 2 had flaws in their main stories as well, but they were both limited in number and in impact: the love triangle for Season 1 fell apart in execution, but was ended by Tommy's heroic death, and while Slade and Shado never really fell in love, Mirakuru had driven Slade insane, so his ramblings weren't nearly as impacted by that mistake.

Season 3 was beset by a combination of lazy writing, predictable plotting, wasted potential, and inconsistent characterization:

-The biggest issue with their long-term plan for the season was that they did almost nothing to disguise the fact they were ripping off a Batman vs Ra's Al Ghul plotline, and then tacked on a sorry ending for it as well. Seasons 1 and 2 had at least remixed their ideas: Malcolm is Tommy's father figure instead of Oliver's and succeeds in ruining the Glades, Slade is the antagonist of two timelines and has a viscerally personal history with Oliver. In contrast, Season 3 literally does a beat for beat copy of a Batman story, and ends with an unspectacular climax.
-Aside from the predictable nature of the main Ra's plotline, everyone on these boards saw Sara's death as a fridging for Laurel's benefit. It was blatant, unimaginative, and wasn't helped by how stupid it's reveal was in The Climb. And while Laurel improved during the Brick arc, we had to put up with her going through a boring revenge story and impersonating her dead sister bit. You could have had Black Canary without killing her wildly popular predecessor, and should have at least had a better plan for how to execute Sara.
- Merlyn was a mess. This guy has a triple digit body count of civilians, including his own son and Oliver's best friend and father. He's prime arch-nemesis material, and he seems to have become that eventually. But the iron was hot the second he and Oliver met, and they wasted him by having him both be defeatable for Oliver but somehow too dangerous to imprison (unlike, say, Slade), trying to portray him as a loving father towards Thea while also being ruthlessly selfish enough to drug her into a personal weapon, clever enough to become the new Ra's but reliant on everyone making stupid decisions and only surviving because of luck anyway, and just generally a Villain Sue.
-They wasted the potential from The Climb in regards to Oliver himself and their season arc. It was decent enough for the other characters, but was pathetic by having Oliver just survive. You could have used the Lazarus Pit. Mirakuru, or any one of a dozen things, and instead he just needs a bandaid?!?
-They wasted Slade, Wildcat, and Katana. That's just sad.

Good post. I agree with a lot of that. What I was getting at in my post was is it really fair to refer to a season as outright bad, if people seemed to enjoy most episodes? I understand that certain decisions, moments and episodes are very important, but after seeing that most comments and rating out of ten for the majority of episodes in those seasons are positive, it has made me think that perhaps I, and others, have been harsh to refer to those seasons as outright bad or terrible.

Out of interest, what were your issues with Merlyns plan regarding Thea that season?

 

[godisawesome]

I'm an arc guy for my comic book shows; episodic stories good, but arcs make tv shows great.

My issue with Merlyn's plans regarding Thea is that they were initially unclear, involved plot elements never used again, and hop scotched around how we were supposed to view the character. If he's supposed to be using her largely as a weapon, that should have been abundantly clear after the reveal, and Thea should have had a slightly different problem with him. It's one thing to blame someone for making you a killer; it's another for your father to abuse your trust of him so he can drug you into killing a friend. I mean, Teha turned on Malcolm in the show, but she should have hated him, especially considering how they never really made their relationship seem that close in the first place.

And his motives for drugging her and his methods are both stupid and fail to reach their potential. If the guy has a mind control drug, why does he never use it again? It would have been perfect for, say, controlling a resurrected Oliver for a few months, or using Speedy as a personal hitman multiple times, or for turning LoA guys on their master. The drugs were a hasty, ill-conceived plot coupon used only thre one time and never foreshadowed or referenced again. And his plot for using Thea comes off as rather pathetic; he wants Oliver to fight for him, so he uses Oliver's sister... but then he's still apparently a better melee fighter, so why is he surprised that Oliver lost to Ra's? And was that the end of his plan? Hang around Star City knowing that Ra's has a murder-***** for you and that your plan actually did nothing to resolve that?

And the last bit ties again into the wasted potential idea. I may have just said that Merlyn's plan that lead to the crime was stupid, but that's because they wrote him to seem thrown off by Oliver's loss. An easy fix would have been to make it explicit that Merlyn doesn't actually care if Oliver or Ra's wins, and that he's satisfied that one enemy will kill another. Suddenly, Merlyn is now a ruthless mastermind again. They also tried to retroactively make it seem like Merlyn was planning for Ra's spot, but if so, they failed, because Merlyn's Ascension comes off as a pathetic opportunistic moment rather than a culmination of a grand scheme.

Oh, and just for reference, it feel that Malcolm should have been blaming Oliver for Tommy's death. The man blamed an entire neighborhood for the death of his wife, so why not?

 

[Slade W]

I don't view Malcolm's plan of getting Oliver to fight Ra's as a master plan, nor do I think it was intended to be viewed as one. I see it as the plan of a desperate man who was backed into a corner. It required a lot of luck to come off, and I think he knew that.

Of course it was highly risky to expect Oliver to defeat Ra's. As good as he was, he wasn't on Ra's level and we seen what happened when they fought. But Malcolm probably couldn't have found anyone better than Oliver to fight for him. Oliver is a man who survived the island, defeated Malcolm, Blood, Rochev and Slade. He is unorthodox and has a golden horseshoe up his ass, but in the end he always defeats the villain (or at least better than anyone Malcolm could manipulate into fighting Ra's). It didn't work out originally but Malcolm probably thought it was worth the risk and that it was his only chance. I imagine he was sick of having to run away from the LOA. In the end it did work out very well for Malcolm but it required a lot of luck along the way. I am sure Malcolm was aware of the risk and that luck would be needed to defeat someone as formidable, imperious and resourceful as Ra's.

They couldn't have him come up with a fool proof plan because that would have meant he would have outsmarted Ra's and it wouldn't have been a good idea for the show to have had the main villain outsmarted so easily and so early in the season. It would be very difficult to outsmart Ra's, especially when he is in a position of power.

It was never really stated if he always intended to become Ra's, or if it was just an opportunity presenting itself that he saw later on in the season. If he did always plan it, perhaps he thought it would be easier to take the title from Oliver or Nyssa if they became the new head of the LOA. Neither are as experienced or as wise, and would be easier to trick or manipulate.

 

[Pickleweasel]

Arrow and super girl are unwatchable and I don't watch theLegends one

You would think they could come up with something good enough to put on HBO I wonder if they have pitched anything to them and they said no or if they just straight up haven't gone for HBO

WB has the leftovers and westworld so it's not like the TV studio can't get stuff on HBO

11.29.63 was also good on Hulu which time warner just invested in too so I wouldn't be surprised if WB started having more stuff on Hulu

 

[kguillou]

Something funny I noticed recently is that a lot of people, myself included, have dismissed seasons 3 and 4 of Arrow as outright bad, yet in most of the episode threads for those two seasons, the majority of comments are positive and ratings out of 10 are good. It seems them messing up key moments in the season, certain decisions taken in some episodes, and storylines and scenes in some episodes focusing too much on things that people do not like, such as Oliver and Felicity's relationship, is enough to ruin the whole season for a lot of people.

You have a very, very good point. Both seasons 3 and 4 of Arrow have a lot of good to great episodes within them ( "Brave and the Bold," "The Climb," The Brick arc in season 3, the first 9 episodes of season 4) but yes, the problem is that even though a lot of the episodes are good, the KEY moments are fumbled and as a result collapses a solid foundation they built. Season 3 of the show shouldn't been Arrow's Magnum Opus, bringing in a heavy hitter like Ra's Al Ghul as the baddie. There was so much squandered potential.

Then in season 4 we had Damien Darhk who started out as a GREAT formidable villain....but then after 22 episodes of Team Arrow going after him, it just got tiresome. It seems like both seasons 3 and 4 of Arrow started off strong and then after the Winter break it all fell apart and thus why I'm saying that maybe 22-23 episodes is just too much to maintain the momentum for these storylines.

 

[justlooking]

Up until this season I'd only seen the full season 1 run of Supergirl. Now i'm watching the 3 other Berlanti shows. I won't watch the earlier seasons of the other shows since I've read many bad reviews. Having watched all this season's premieres I would say they are all solid. What I appreciate about these shows is that you most definitely feel like you're watching comic book/superhero shows. This is why I did not enjoy Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. Jessica Jones very rarely exhibited that she was more than a normal human. Luke Cage had more moments but too few for my taste. Add the fact that they were reluctant heroes and I just got depressed right along with them sometimes. JJ and LC felt like I was watching a standard drama like Law and Order sometimes. Daredevil on the other hand was just right for me. Matt may question himself at times but he is always out at night being Daredevil, being a hero.

Berlanti just has to watch that his shows don't creep into campy territory.

 

[Slade W]

Up until this season I'd only seen the full season 1 run of Supergirl. Now i'm watching the 3 other Berlanti shows. I won't watch the earlier seasons of the other shows since I've read many bad reviews. Having watched all this season's premieres I would say they are all solid. What I appreciate about these shows is that you most definitely feel like you're watching comic book/superhero shows. This is why I did not enjoy Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. Jessica Jones very rarely exhibited that she was more than a normal human. Luke Cage had more moments but too few for my taste. Add the fact that they were reluctant heroes and I just got depressed right along with them sometimes. JJ and LC felt like I was watching a standard drama like Law and Order sometimes. Daredevil on the other hand was just right for me. Matt may question himself at times but he is always out at night being Daredevil, being a hero.

Berlanti just has to watch that his shows don't creep into campy territory.

You should definitely watch the first two seasons of Arrow and the first season of the Flash IMO.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

The season 2 premiere of Supergirl was pure comic book gold. Definitely the best Berlanti show on TV, if not the best comic book show on TV period.
Any problems anyone had with season one are wiped away. They basically got rid of the worst and kept the best. If you skipped or dropped season 1,
season 2 is now a good time to jump back in.

 

[Boy Scout]

I dunno about that. I liked the premiere, but the problems that the show has always had were still very much present.