Is Anyone Else Getting a Little Tired of The Berlanti DC Shows?

I'm not tried because thankfully I never start the Berlanti shows to begin with. :devil:

Gotham is the only network show I'm on and that's already too much to keep up with. And that is one of the major problem I have with these superhero shows on network tv. You have too much filler and it drowns out narrative story telling. I dont care if you're Supergirl, or Flash... no show's season needs to be 23 hours long.
 
Ugh, this is why I dislike so many people in the Comic fandom. We gripe for years there are no shows based on comics, then we get an explosion of them, and all we do is complain and say we're tired of them. Not me, I watch them all and when a season ends I can't wait for the next one. Are there things I don't like, sure, but I don't stop watching, because I'm afraid if a bunch of us stop, they'll stop making comic based shows, and it'll go back to the crap we had before.

I don't know about you, but I like lots of different kinds of stories. Yeah, superheroes are among my favorites and I'm glad they're popular right now, but I'm not going to waste my time on a show that's downright painful to watch just because it has a superhero in it. I already give superhero shows far more rope than most - in any other genre I'd possibly have given up on Gotham already and certainly wouldn't even consider giving Supergirl or Legends of Tomorrow a second chance this year (still not sure whether I will or not). But there are always limits, and the idea that I should just ignore them out of fear that the superhero shows might go away is absurd. If they go away, I'll watch something else. Or, maybe even more likely, they'll be replaced by new superhero shows that are actually better quality.
 
And that is one of the major problem I have with these superhero shows on network tv. You have too much filler and it drowns out narrative story telling. I dont care if you're Supergirl, or Flash... no show's season needs to be 23 hours long.
I do agree with this. I wish all shows could follow the cable/Netflix model of shorter seasons.
 
I love Arrow overall and like the last couple of seasons. Legends of Tomorrow I like, but probably not enough that I'd still be watching if it wasn't connected to a show I love, with my favorite character from that show (Sara). There's more good shows out there than I actually have time to watch, so I have to be particular. Flash and Supergirl didn't interest me enough to start watching. I only watched the pilot of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. because of Whedon since the premise didn't appeal to me, and the pilot was bad, so that was it for me.

I enjoyed the first six episodes or so of Gotham, but not enough to continue finding time for it. I was open to the idea of a precursor to Batman, even a procedural, but I feel like it jumped into things too quickly instead of showing gradual development toward the Gotham City we know. In the first few episodes they introduced a colorful vigilante and superpowers, and in both cases it was just some case of the week that showed up instead of something that followed from the regular characters. Then the advertising for Season 2 was all about villains, villains as far as the eye can see, and I guess that's meant to get me interested/excited, but how can you have all this going on without Batman? There's no sense that the show has balance.

Someone said that Gotham didn't know whether it wanted to be Burton Batman, Nolan Batman, etc. I feel like it should have been more Batman Begins than Batman '89, then maybe slowly get weirder until it becomes Burton-esque around the end or the point when Batman's ready to appear. Maybe start out with Gotham crime-ridden but not a complete disaster, too, so that Gordon can watch as the cops get more crooked and the Mafia becomes more entrenched and powerful, to press the point that someone needs to come and save the city, and Gordon's not up to the task. However, that would require it to be a pretty normal procedural with hints of what's to come, and I don't know how well it would've gone over.

I did like The Penguin, which is saying something because I don't normally like The Penguin. And I liked who they cast for Catwoman, and Barbara Kean was hot. I've heard about where her character goes, and I think she has a good look for that sort of thing.
 
I do agree with this. I wish all shows could follow the cable/Netflix model of shorter seasons.

Same here. Sitcoms can get away with 23 episode seasons because it's usually 30 minutes and even then the episodes are mostly self contained.
 
I'm not tried because thankfully I never start the Berlanti shows to begin with. :devil:

Gotham is the only network show I'm on and that's already too much to keep up with. And that is one of the major problem I have with these superhero shows on network tv. You have too much filler and it drowns out narrative story telling. I dont care if you're Supergirl, or Flash... no show's season needs to be 23 hours long.

Its so bad that we are now getting musical two-parters to fill up the episode count. I fear what they will think of next for their fillers. Multi part clip shows can't be far away.
 
Its so bad that we are now getting musical two-parters to fill up the episode count. I fear what they will think of next for their fillers. Multi part clip shows can't be far away.

Hahaha. "Remember when this happened?" [Proceeds to show the entire season story arc]
 
I think the Berlanti shows just need to do what Gotham and Agents of Shield are doing and divide their seasons into two mini seasons. Each half focuses on a specific story plot.

I don't want to sound ungrateful, because, let's face it, when you get right down to it, Berlanti is the reason for this superhero tv surplus. It all started with ARROW. Arrow showed that you could have a show about a guy dressing up in a costume fighting crime and not have it be silly, something that Smallville and Heroes seemed to be afraid of. I think if it wasn't for Arrow's success we wouldn't have had Daredevil and the Marvel Netflix shows. I just fear we may be reaching a saturation point. I get the feeling Berlanti and DC are trying to bring a new superhero to television every year, and while I praise their enthusiasm, maybe its best to just focus on the ones you've got going now, let them run their course instead of spreading yourself too thin.
 
I watched 3 episodes of flash, arrow and Supergirl and I couldn't continue with any of em, but people keep telling me to stick with flash.
I think the problem is the 20+ episode season, which just forces the creators to stretch their story lines, which is something that marvel's netflicks shows don't have to content with.
With all that being said I'm gonna watch the first 2 episodes of supergirl just to see what they'll do with superman.
 
There mostly fun in a low budget cheesy way. And I watch most of them. But it would be cool to have something of more "prestige" like the kind Marvel has in their Netflix series. If AMC, FX, HBO, Amazon, etc picked up a DC show and took it seriously that would be cool thing to see.

I think they're kinda cheesy like the Marvel movies myself. I get why these are successful for kids and families but it baffles me adults go for this stuff. But just because I don't like campy. I just have different tastes.
 
I reject the notion that the musical crossover will be anything less than utterly awesome. It might be the only episode I watch this season. I'd much rather see these great singers take their shot at recreating the magic of "Once more with Feeling" than see Barry face off with yet another speedster with the help of yet another Dr. Wells.

Gotham is the only network show I'm on and that's already too much to keep up with. And that is one of the major problem I have with these superhero shows on network tv. You have too much filler and it drowns out narrative story telling. I dont care if you're Supergirl, or Flash... no show's season needs to be 23 hours long.

I disagree with this specific conclusion, even though I agree with the overall problem. I've been giving a lot of thought to this problem about drawing out storylines and what it would take for a superhero network tv show to 'work' at that length, and I think it really comes down to a change in focus.

There are three options:

1) The 24 Method: Burn through a lot of storyline/split the season. The number of things Jack Bauer experiences in a season of 24 is mindblowing, even if it weren't all in one day. Instead of trying to do one big bad a season, you kinda need 3 or 4. Someone dealing with 3-4 major crises at once needs 23 eps.

2) The Heroes Method: Run three+ different shows. Heroes started by clearly stating the endpoint for the season, but it followed at least three different largely separate paths to get there. 23 episodes of Hiro Nakamura, or Peter Petrelli or Claire and her dad would have been exhausting, but together, it made for a great first season. A world wide zeitgeist needs 23 episodes.

These first two methods kinda go together, as each example used a little bit of the other one as well. They complement well, because one is talking about multiple protagonists and the other multiple antagonists.

3) The House Method: Do a procedural. When all of your episodes are filler episodes, the burden on your serial storyline is dramatically lightened, and it allows you to focus on making your filler really good, and thus, have a great show. This requires you be consistent, however, with the rules of your procedural, which requires research and planning of its own stripe, especially if you're doing a fake field like superheroics. This method actually brings in the most viewers consistently. A procedural may not need 23 eps, but it needs more than 13 to really cement itself and form a foundation for all seasons going forward.

I feel like Berlantiverse shows start with the foundation for a procedural, what with their command centers and specialists but abandon it in favor of the soapy stuff, which they stretch relentlessly, and basically start handwaving the procedural elements into meaninglessness. I don't think anyone has figured out how to do a *superhero* procedural yet, because there aren't really any rules for superheroics, it's just a matter of saying technobabble with the right keywords and boom, problem solved, whatever it is.
 
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Procedural is not the way to go. You gotta gice people a resson to tune in the next week otherwise people'll just be like "eh, that was a fun adventure, maybe I'll tune in next week, maybe I wont." You dont want that, you want an ongoing story that leada into the next installment to hook people.

Arrow is actually pretty good at this. Even when they have a bad episode their last minute cliffhangers tend to leave you curious to see whats gonna happen next week. Flash used to have these grwat "post credits" scenes that unveiled a piece of the season's mystery and left you intrigued, but they seemed to stop doing it for some reason.
 
I wouldn't mind "freak-of-the-week" stories... If we at least had reasons to care about the freaks. Someone here mentioned the Batman TAS approach and I think it's a series from which the Berlanti-verse could learn a lot.

There, you were given screentime to care about the villains, some with stories and motivations as compelling as Batman's.

If you're going to make people watch Flash fight some guy with superpowers, why don't try to flip the perspective?

Also, what happened to mini-arcs and two-parters? Arrow Season 3 was very weak overall, but the Brick mini-arc had everything to keep you interested. A charismatic villain that wasn't handicapped by being in just one episode with a cool (if not exactly original) plan and a backstory and placement that let multiple characters shine.
 
Procedural is not the way to go. You gotta gice people a resson to tune in the next week otherwise people'll just be like "eh, that was a fun adventure, maybe I'll tune in next week, maybe I wont." You dont want that, you want an ongoing story that leada into the next installment to hook people.

Arrow is actually pretty good at this. Even when they have a bad episode their last minute cliffhangers tend to leave you curious to see whats gonna happen next week. Flash used to have these grwat "post credits" scenes that unveiled a piece of the season's mystery and left you intrigued, but they seemed to stop doing it for some reason.

Unfortunately, that approach hasn't proved very successful. The top scripted shows are procedurals. Arrow and Flash and a host of other serial-centric shows have a consistent downward trend in viewership as the big hook catches just a few less people every week. This also prevents the show from getting new life because the disinterest in previous storylines provides a barrier to new or returning viewers. Promising another great adventure is, generally, more enticing that promising a follow up to a so-so adventure. More importantly, a procedural offers consistency in characters and character development. No weird writing to make characters do dumb things, because characters are expected to play their role in a proven procedure instead of an ever-moving plot twist chase.

Plus, even in a procedural, you still do serial storylines and subplots, so you get the advantage of the hook. Early Flash S1 did this, with a procedural storyline and a serial subplot. It wasn't until later that the procedural elements took up less and less time while the serial elements took more and more. That's when the stretching happened, and that's when the show became tiring. Same thing with Arrow, heck, same with Smallville.

There are shows that do well with purely serial storylines, those with shorter seasons like Game of Thrones, Daredevil and Walking Dead, as well as what I said before, those having multiple protagonists or multiple antagonists. But that doesn't work with the Berlantiverse method of setting up a procedural and then phasing out the procedural and playing up the serial elements while you stretch them so much they become tiring. If they're not going to do a procedural, then they need to get rid of the command centers and specialists and one-off villains.

I wouldn't mind "freak-of-the-week" stories... If we at least had reasons to care about the freaks. Someone here mentioned the Batman TAS approach and I think it's a series from which the Berlanti-verse could learn a lot.

There, you were given screentime to care about the villains, some with stories and motivations as compelling as Batman's.

If you're going to make people watch Flash fight some guy with superpowers, why don't try to flip the perspective?

Also, what happened to mini-arcs and two-parters? Arrow Season 3 was very weak overall, but the Brick mini-arc had everything to keep you interested. A charismatic villain that wasn't handicapped by being in just one episode with a cool (if not exactly original) plan and a backstory and placement that let multiple characters shine.

Brick was great, and exactly the kind of protagonist that could have made the show shine more. I also liked 'The Mayor' from a previous season of Arrow. Having him expanded would have made the show better as well. Those characters open up great political storylines and give the relationship drama stuff a chance to breathe, or a context that adds weight. But, I don't think they're interested in that. Also, in any good procedural, the issue and heart comes from the victim of the thing that needs to be taken care of. That focus on the victim is, oddly, missing from a lot of superhero shows, which, ostensibly, are about saving people.

I suspect they, and many other failed/failing shows, use the most vocal fans (i.e. 'shippers') as a dipstick for their audience, and they play to that. Unfortunately, shippers aren't a sustainable audience. They latch on to something that's already in progress, something that already has meaning, and they find their joy in scouring things that are *not* relationship drama, but genuine character moments in the midst of other contexts. So in catering to shippers, and focusing on relationship drama, you deprive the heavy shippers, casual shippers and non shippers of the context that makes these character relationships meaningful. Fewer and fewer people are interested.

Do you know what would really inspire me in one of these shows? A genuine committed relationship that is entertaining to watch.
 
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For all it's ups-and-downs, Arrow S2 found an almost perfect balance in its multiple storylines.

You had the first arc with Sebastian Blood and Cyrus, which eventually was incorporated into Slade's overall plan. You had Oliver and Moira's problem with the company (which also was incorporated into that through Rochev). You had some one-off villains, but they were compelling and generally had a reason to be there (the aftershocks of Merlin's plan, which freed Vertigo and Dollmaker - Vertigo even helped with Oliver's personal struggle not to kill). Separated from that, you had the Suicide Squad. You had Merlin's resurrection. The new Black Canary/Sara's reapparance, Laurel's problems, Thea's father, Oliver having a son... Combine that with a series of flashbacks that didn't seem obligatory or stretched and that made for a good story on their own and you had a season that, despite its lenght, managed to keep almost everyone interested.

Sure, this is extremely difficult to balance and not everything worked, but it showed that, if you're makign a serialized series of 22 episodes, you at least need several stories, not just one.
 
I can't get tired of a universe that's given me this:

Supergirl_Season_2_Premiere_Superman_Tyler_Hoech.jpg


Arrow_131.jpg


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And even more...
 
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They messed up and wasted top DC characters like Vandal Savage and the Hawks. These characters belong on the big screen. They like to bite more than they can chew sometimes.
 
I watch most but I do think they are mostly very cheesy/ marvel level campy. Maybe moreso.
 
I liked the tone of Arrow in the beginning. The flash , even has its cheesy 90210 teeny bopper" let's get a latte and discuss boyfriends" stuff I just cringe at.
 
I watch most but I do think they are mostly very cheesy/ marvel level campy. Maybe moreso.

Oh don't insult Marvel like that. Berlanti's shows are on another level of cheese.

After watching Suicide Squad, I am even more than grateful WB stepped in and prevented Arrow from using Harley.There is only one live action Harley and that's on the big screen,she was brilliant.
 
For all it's ups-and-downs, Arrow S2 found an almost perfect balance in its multiple storylines.

You had the first arc with Sebastian Blood and Cyrus, which eventually was incorporated into Slade's overall plan. You had Oliver and Moira's problem with the company (which also was incorporated into that through Rochev). You had some one-off villains, but they were compelling and generally had a reason to be there (the aftershocks of Merlin's plan, which freed Vertigo and Dollmaker - Vertigo even helped with Oliver's personal struggle not to kill). Separated from that, you had the Suicide Squad. You had Merlin's resurrection. The new Black Canary/Sara's reapparance, Laurel's problems, Thea's father, Oliver having a son... Combine that with a series of flashbacks that didn't seem obligatory or stretched and that made for a good story on their own and you had a season that, despite its lenght, managed to keep almost everyone interested.

Sure, this is extremely difficult to balance and not everything worked, but it showed that, if you're makign a serialized series of 22 episodes, you at least need several stories, not just one.
This are great observations. When I hear people talk about Season 2 as this great thing, all I can think about is how much I didn't like the finale, how it didn't work for me, and how the fumbled Laurel's character so badly all season. But this... this reminds me why I did love that season at the time - and I did. There were so many little parts to like, so many twists, angles, and enough intrigue that it was impossible to call the show entirely juvenile.

And then... they just lost interest in what made the show good? Not sure what happened there, but it was a tragedy.

I can't get tired of a universe that's given me this:

And even more...

Even more?

vvvv

They messed up and wasted top DC characters like Vandal Savage and the Hawks. These characters belong on the big screen. They like to bite more than they can chew sometimes.

For every shot of Green Arrow and Speedy there's a Vandal Savage as Hath Set was a betrayal of both characters, and used in a pair of non-sensical storylines with a charisma less Hawk Couple.
For every Flash and Kid Flash team up there's a Zoom-In-Name-Only as part of a redux of Flash Season 1.
For every Reverse Flash there's a season of never seeing the Rogues be The Rogues outside of two small groups of three with poor costuming.
For every Superman and Supergirl team up there's a Indigo-as-Mystique ripoff.
For every rinky dink Deathstroke Costume there's an even more rinky-dink Count Vertigo followed by a depowering of Deathstroke

I'm glad you see the glass as half full BH, but, seriously... the glass is also half empty. Cats is getting thirsty out here.
 
It was epic.
And then they spent the rest of the season showing how meaningless it was. If anything, THAT is what tired me out the most. Them proving such great potential and then squandering it.
 

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