Is Anyone Else Getting a Little Tired of The Berlanti DC Shows?

[Arach Knight]

I am not fatigued in the least by the current crop of DC television shows. My wife isn't even a DC fan, yet I managed to get her hooked on The Flash and Legends. Each show offers its own tone, and that fact makes it all the more enjoyable to follow each series. My only complaint thus far is that Constantine hasn't been picked up by the CW, or turned into a Netflix series. Otherwise, these programs are all fantastic.

I will say this; Arrow hit a few bumps in the road as the showrunners attempted to appease fans that wanted Olly to explicitly be known as the Green Arrow. That transition caused the show to lose much of the direction that made it so interesting in the first place. But even with those bumps in the road, some exciting things still happened, including DeathStroke, R'as Al Ghul, and the excellent Brother Blood arc.

I am onboard for the long haul!

 

[Osiris-Rex]

For every Superman and Supergirl team up there's a Indigo-as-Mystique ripoff.

How exactly was Indigo a Mystique rip-off? Because they are both blue? What exactly did they have in common other than that? I guess that makes Mystique a Blue Man Group rip-off if being the same color is all it takes to be a rip-off.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I'm not tried because thankfully I never start the Berlanti shows to begin with.

Gotham is the only network show I'm on and that's already too much to keep up with. And that is one of the major problem I have with these superhero shows on network tv. You have too much filler and it drowns out narrative story telling. I dont care if you're Supergirl, or Flash... no show's season needs to be 23 hours long.

I don't understand the logic of wanting less of something I like. If I had my way they would make 52 episodes of Supergirl every season.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I can't get tired of a universe that's given me this:

And even more...

I agree. Kids are so spoiled these days. I remember back to the days where we only had Superman on TV. And then had to wait years to get Batman. And then years more to get Wonder Woman. And yet even more years to get Superman on TV again. Now we have shows that far exceed those in quality and they aren't good enough for them. This whole thread saddens and disgusts me.

 

[BH/HHH]

And then they spent the rest of the season showing how meaningless it was. If anything, THAT is what tired me out the most. Them proving such great potential and then squandering it.

I actually agree with that, the second half of that season was pretty bad. Shame because that story had great potential, especially with the more comic accurate version of Ra's Al Ghul.

If only I could "like" or "thumbs up" this post!

 

[DrCosmic]

^I think the anticlimactic return of Oliver kinda highlighted for me how disinterested the show was in its own potential, and that, more than anything, turned me off to the Arrowverse. It's been dying a slow death in my heart since then. It'd be different if there were some outside cause or something why they continually drop all the most interesting storylines and angles, but as far as I can tell, they just stopped caring about what made the show great in the first place.

I agree. Kids are so spoiled these days. I remember back to the days where we only had Superman on TV. And then had to wait years to get Batman. And then years more to get Wonder Woman. And yet even more years to get Superman on TV again. Now we have shows that far exceed those in quality and they aren't good enough for them. This whole thread saddens and disgusts me.

So you're, like... 80?

Me personally, I don't compare shows to what was possible back in 1966, I compare them to what's they've proven they're able to do today. If Arrow and Flash had maintained their quality, far fewer people would be tired of them.

Also, this isn't in a vaccuum. While I like superheroes more than anything, we're living in a time where ALL of television is improving, and things like Game of Thrones and Walking Dead exist to bring a strong indictment against tv shows that are shooting for 'Adventures of Lois and Clark' levels of quality.

And honestly, I'd take Batman 66 over season 4 Arrow.

 

[Slade W]

It is a shame the quality has dropped. Arrow and Flash at their best are the best live-action adaptions that DC has had going for them since Nolan stopped making Batman movies.

 

[DrCosmic]

^That is true. If they hadn't started out so great, I wouldn't be tired of hoping they'll get back to that.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

^I think the anticlimactic return of Oliver kinda highlighted for me how disinterested the show was in its own potential, and that, more than anything, turned me off to the Arrowverse. It's been dying a slow death in my heart since then. It'd be different if there were some outside cause or something why they continually drop all the most interesting storylines and angles, but as far as I can tell, they just stopped caring about what made the show great in the first place.

I agree so much. Think how different Arrow and the DCCW would be today if instead of "I got better" Ra's revived Oliver from the Fall and brainwashed him to be his Heir. Team Arrow would've had to fend for themselves for 10-13 episodes while Ra's trained Oliver to be his agent. And then at the finale Oliver would have to choose between his old family and new family. To spice things up I would also have made Nyssa bi and the marriage between her and Oliver a legit one further tethering him to the LoA. The entire second half of season 3 would have flown so much better. Instead everything was overshadowed by Felicity's incessant *****ing.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

 

[kguillou]

This once again points to what I feel is the real issue...too many episodes. The 23 episode count is putting a strain on the writers because they have to draw things out for a ridiculous amount of time. The last season of Arrow proved that. The fist half of season 4 was GREAT. Everyone thought Arrow was on a rebound from season 3 and then after the winter break it all fell apart.

Dr Cosmic brought up a excellent point, we're living in a golden age of television where the quality of storytelling and content is the best its ever been across the board and that there is huge audience that craves quality serial storytelling. The Berlanti shows could be so much better than they are.

 

[MbJ]

Barring Arrow (which completely went off the rails the past few seasons), no. I love it. How can I hate something giving me stuff like this?

 

[BestGirl]

Shows like Flash and Arrow need to have two overarching plots in a single season. The first half season needs to resolve one crisis and a new big bad can be introduced when the show returns from its midseason break. Eleven episodes is perfect to tell a serialized story.

 

[BH/HHH]

Barring Arrow (which completely went off the rails the past few seasons), no. I love it. How can I hate something giving me stuff like this?

I actually feel like Arrow will bounce back this season, having Oliver as the father figure/older trainer to younger/inexperienced crime fighters is a really interesting angle.

 

[Fincher]

I agree so much. Think how different Arrow and the DCCW would be today if instead of "I got better" Ra's revived Oliver from the Fall and brainwashed him to be his Heir. Team Arrow would've had to fend for themselves for 10-13 episodes while Ra's trained Oliver to be his agent. And then at the finale Oliver would have to choose between his old family and new family. To spice things up I would also have made Nyssa bi and the marriage between her and Oliver a legit one further tethering him to the LoA. The entire second half of season 3 would have flown so much better. Instead everything was overshadowed by Felicity's incessant *****ing.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

I can't say I agree. I had no desire to see Oliver brainwashed by Ra's al Ghul and was glad that wasn't really the case. Actually, maybe my biggest criticism of Season 3's story was how obnoxiously overbearing Ra's was, so him getting what he wanted more would have been worse. I'd have gone the other way and had Ra's humiliated and broken by the end.

 

[DrCosmic]

I can't say I agree. I had no desire to see Oliver brainwashed by Ra's al Ghul and was glad that wasn't really the case. Actually, maybe my biggest criticism of Season 3's story was how obnoxiously overbearing Ra's was, so him getting what he wanted more would have been worse. I'd have gone the other way and had Ra's humiliated and broken by the end.

How can someone be overbearing if they already have what they want?

Wasn't Ra's humiliated and broken by the end of the season? What with him being one-shotted, among other things.

This does kinda help me understand where the showmakers are coming from. This may have been a common complaint and instead of analyzing it for what the actual problem is (a character being overbearing and repetitive) and the actual solution (satisfying his demands), it's very easy to be like "bad guy bad" and just get rid of anything that requires thinking through and challenging the audience. Unfortunately, that way quality does not lie.

I agree so much. Think how different Arrow and the DCCW would be today if instead of "I got better" Ra's revived Oliver from the Fall and brainwashed him to be his Heir. Team Arrow would've had to fend for themselves for 10-13 episodes while Ra's trained Oliver to be his agent. And then at the finale Oliver would have to choose between his old family and new family. To spice things up I would also have made Nyssa bi and the marriage between her and Oliver a legit one further tethering him to the LoA. The entire second half of season 3 would have flown so much better. Instead everything was overshadowed by Felicity's incessant *****ing.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

Dude... this. So many great stories roll out of that, not just them fending for themselves, that could have lasted a couple episodes on its own, but then you have them trying and failing to win back Oliver, then you have Oliver coming for them on a personal level, since he knows them so well, and you get to explore both characters. Felicity would have been so much more dynamic, still with the shipping, and an even harder tease as now her man is a monster whom she has to win back, but she's also the last person to not give up on him. Even Felicity shippers would win. That's how great the ideas that Arrow leaves on the table are... they let down their own most vocal fanbase.

But... if the fanbase is asking to be let down... give the people what they want? -shrug-

This once again points to what I feel is the real issue...too many episodes. The 23 episode count is putting a strain on the writers because they have to draw things out for a ridiculous amount of time. The last season of Arrow proved that. The fist half of season 4 was GREAT. Everyone thought Arrow was on a rebound from season 3 and then after the winter break it all fell apart.

Dr Cosmic brought up a excellent point, we're living in a golden age of television where the quality of storytelling and content is the best its ever been across the board and that there is huge audience that craves quality serial storytelling. The Berlanti shows could be so much better than they are.

I don't see why have to draw things out. Just add more things to the show - like they used to when it was good. It's not like Arrow doesn't have two good seasons of 23 eps without this dragging effect. If it wasn't too many episodes for Season 1, it's not the episode count.

And I would also say that there is an equally large demand for quality procedurals, which shouldn't be topical, but Berlantiville still wants to do baddie-of-the-week and have it be this process of figuring out how to stop them... though, Agents of SHIELD fails as a procedural as well, because it fails to create or adhere to rules.

 

[Fincher]

How can someone be overbearing if they already have what they want?

Well, okay, if he brainwashed Oliver right at the point that he defeated him, he would never have had a chance to be overbearing because we didn't much know him then (which doesn't resolve my general disinterest in seeing Oliver as a brainwashed member of the League of Assassins). However, at that point, they also hadn't established any reason for him to brainwash him, because he was supposed to be killing him.

Wasn't Ra's humiliated and broken by the end of the season? What with him being one-shotted, among other things.

Ra's died thinking that Oliver had defeated him and become the new Ra's, which was what he ultimately wanted. So no, I don't think his defeat was satisfactory.

 

[Web-Head]

Arrow seasons 1 and 2 were very well done and I can say the same thing about the Flash. Never really bothered with Legends of Tomorrow or Supergirl, although I'll be checking out the first two episodes of that at least. But, no, I like the shows...for the most part. I love the Flash although there are things about it I feel could be improved on. I gave up on Arrow halfway through last season but the season 5 trailer looked like a return to form and peaked my interest.

We also have to keep in mind that these shows aren't just made for the ultimate fanboy, but the general audience and teenage boys and ,unfortunately, at times teenage girls.

 

[DrCosmic]

^It's not appealing to them either. They don't seem to know their audience very well.

How exactly was Indigo a Mystique rip-off?

This is a great question, I'm glad you asked. Allow me to go ham for a moment when comparing Mystique from the X-Men movies with Indigo from the comics.

First, Mystique is indeed blue, while Indigo is, surpisingly, not indigo but teal with a shock of pink hair. But, Mystique doesn't have pink hair, she has distinctive red hair. Not only that, Mystique's distinct and unique visuals include her using her blue skin as her costume, while Indigo wears clothing, like every other character ever except for Mystique. So visually, Vandervoort's Indigo is modeled after Mystique and not after Indigo from the comics.

But wait, there's more.

In the comics, Indigo is a sort of trojan horse, a naive good guy trying to find herself who turns out to have bad programming. While superhumanly strong, her strengths and contribution revolve around the fact that she is a living computer. Mystique is not a trojan horse, she is a bad guy who is the right hand and love interest of the main villain who seeks to take over the world as a superior race. Not only this, but she is extremely dangerous because of her epic martial arts skills, and she's known for taking out a room full of large armed men with her martial arts prowess. So Vandervoort's Indigo doesn't just look like Mystique, but she fights like Mystique for no good reason and plays Mystique's role in the story.

Are there any ways in which Vandervoort's Indigo is similar to Indigo from the comics, aside from the name?

 

[DrCosmic]

Well, okay, if he brainwashed Oliver right at the point that he defeated him, he would never have had a chance to be overbearing because we didn't much know him then (which doesn't resolve my general disinterest in seeing Oliver as a brainwashed member of the League of Assassins). However, at that point, they also hadn't established any reason for him to brainwash him, because he was supposed to be killing him.

Ra's died thinking that Oliver had defeated him and become the new Ra's, which was what he ultimately wanted. So no, I don't think his defeat was satisfactory.

Actually, Ra's developed his admiration for Oliver during the fight that Oliver lost, and the overall reasoning for wanting Oliver around ever was as strong there as ever. And in the end Oliver was all "My name is Oliver Queen." So they showed that Ra's didn't get what he wanted, but the fight wasn't satisfying because we know that Ra's wasn't broken by that fight. The solution is: you have to build him up to have something *to* break. If Ra's never gets what he wants, he can't lose in a satisfying way. If he's always been losing, a final loss isn't climactic. To have a good bad guy, they have to make the good guys lives really suck, and Ra's didn't really do that very well.

Great stories often sound uninteresting when we describe them: "Guys invade a rich guys dream to trick him into signing some papers" sounds boring, but... Inception. The power of an idea is in the execution. Hearing people say "I'm not interested in a storyline that involves X" may sound like a reason not to do it, but unless we examine what triggers that disinterest (is it what will actually happen or what the audience incorrectly assumes will happen?) and what is lost by not pursuing the new angle (is the disinterest in this new storyline comparable with the disinterest in th same old same old storyline?) then you can end up losing big on both ends.

Arrow seasons 1 and 2 were very well done and I can say the same thing about the Flash. Never really bothered with Legends of Tomorrow or Supergirl, although I'll be checking out the first two episodes of that at least. But, no, I like the shows...for the most part. I love the Flash although there are things about it I feel could be improved on. I gave up on Arrow halfway through last season but the season 5 trailer looked like a return to form and peaked my interest.

We also have to keep in mind that these shows aren't just made for the ultimate fanboy, but the general audience and teenage boys and ,unfortunately, at times teenage girls.

 

[Fincher]

Actually, Ra's developed his admiration for Oliver during the fight that Oliver lost, and the overall reasoning for wanting Oliver around ever was as strong there as ever. And in the end Oliver was all "My name is Oliver Queen." So they showed that Ra's didn't get what he wanted, but the fight wasn't satisfying because we know that Ra's wasn't broken by that fight. The solution is: you have to build him up to have something *to* break. If Ra's never gets what he wants, he can't lose in a satisfying way. If he's always been losing, a final loss isn't climactic. To have a good bad guy, they have to make the good guys lives really suck, and Ra's didn't really do that very well.

Great stories often sound uninteresting when we describe them: "Guys invade a rich guys dream to trick him into signing some papers" sounds boring, but... Inception. The power of an idea is in the execution. Hearing people say "I'm not interested in a storyline that involves X" may sound like a reason not to do it, but unless we examine what triggers that disinterest (is it what will actually happen or what the audience incorrectly assumes will happen?) and what is lost by not pursuing the new angle (is the disinterest in this new storyline comparable with the disinterest in th same old same old storyline?) then you can end up losing big on both ends.

Ra's wanted Oliver to replace him because he survived the fight (and in fact, there was a legend about that very thing). If Ra's just tore him a new one, whisked him off to Nanda Parbat, and revived him so he could brainwash him and make him his heir, it would be a whiplash-inducing turn.

Then, on top of that, the whole idea of brainwashing your successor makes no sense. I mean, okay, there's a certain internal logic to the idea that this group hasn't evolved much in all of this time because it hasn't allowed any outside perspective to penetrate it, but Season 3 left me feeling that the League of Assassins was a completely backwards model for an organization that couldn't actually survive in real life. So I feel like (and this ties into my desire for comeuppance) someone should have pointed out to Ra's how screwed up his ideology was before the end of the season.

It seems like you're talking about what makes for a great villain in general. My position is that once Ra's established himself as an obnoxious presence, the only thing he was good for as a character (not a plot device) was seeing him defeated and humiliated. In that scenario, the more he annoys me by succeeding, the more he needs to suffer in the end to justify the annoyance with a big payoff. If he'd been defeated early on without having accomplished much of anything, I would have had satisfaction in the sense of, "Yeah, f*** that guy." Having him largely getting his way throughout the season only to kind of lose but also kind of win and die with a smile at the end didn't deliver a proper "Yeah, f*** that guy." So in the end, he was annoying until he was gone.

What I would have done (without changing things drastically) would be: Oliver pretends to be brainwashed, and Ra's buys into it and thinks he's winning (same as before). Ra's attack on the city fails more badly than it did. Oliver gives Ra's some lecture about how his failure was the failure of the League of Assassins and its entire belief system. He points out that Ra's didn't realize that Oliver was tricking him, but he also had no advisors, no one to point out when he was making a mistake. This ties into Oliver learning not to try to handle things by himself, which ties the season together more. He tells Ra's that he lost because his was one group mind working against several strong individuals, that the League is a dinosaur that has no place in the modern world. They fight, but it's not Oliver losing but coming back at the end and winning. His victory is more decisive, he severely injures Ra's, and then he gets shot by the police and falls down the waterfall.

Ra's gets away, only to run into Malcolm. Malcolm reveals that he poisoned Oliver's blade just in case he wasn't willing to finish the job. Ra's can barely defend himself between his injuries and the poison. Malcolm chops off his hand and takes the ring. He gloats that he's going to become the new Ra's and do things his way before finishing Ra's off.

Yeah, f*** that guy.

 

[Guard82]

I'm not tired of Berlanti's DC shows at all. I'm definitely ready to see where these shows go next. The Berlanti shows are great examples of how to do superhero TV in a high-quality, engaging manner. Notwithstanding Arrow's current problems (which are definitely big problems), the Berlanti shows have generally done a very good job of bringing DC comic-book stories and heroes to life. One of the biggest strengths of the Berlanti shows, in my opinion, is that they usually take great care in crafting interesting, likable characters whom you want to root for.

 

[BH/HHH]

Another positive thing I will say about the Berlanti shows is the villains, sure they have longer to develop them but there's been Reverse Flash, Deathstroke aka Slade Wilson, Dark Archer aka Malcolm Merlyn (regardless of how he went in later seasons he was great in Season One), Zoom etc as big villains who they nailed. But even one off villains such as King Shark, Clock King, Livewire, Maste Jailer, etc have been great to watch aswell.

As far as the movies go I loved Zod, Faora & Lex and MCU I loved Loki, Red Skull and I even liked Darren Cross but for me DCCW has done villains so consistently done so much better than comic book movies have done with theirs.

 

[Slade W]

Damien Darhk was excellent too. I also liked Ra's, but they did not use him anywhere near as well as they could have done.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

This is a great question, I'm glad you asked. Allow me to go ham for a moment when comparing Mystique from the X-Men movies with Indigo from the comics.

First, Mystique is indeed blue, while Indigo is, surpisingly, not indigo but teal with a shock of pink hair. But, Mystique doesn't have pink hair, she has distinctive red hair. Not only that, Mystique's distinct and unique visuals include her using her blue skin as her costume, while Indigo wears clothing, like every other character ever except for Mystique. So visually, Vandervoort's Indigo is modeled after Mystique and not after Indigo from the comics.

Except in the comic books Mystique has traditionally worn clothing too, a long tunic, and not even blue clothing. In the movies she is buck naked. Indigo wears a blue catsuit on the TV show. So still the only thing they have in common is blue skin.
Plus Mystique has straight hair. Indigo braids her hair in Supergirl. And Indigo has smooth skin, red lights and grooves on her forehead. Mystique has bumpy skin, no grooves, no lights. So still not seeing the resemblance other than having a similar shade of blue skin. Which was likely done because a dark color looks more sinister than bright purple.

In the comics, Indigo is a sort of trojan horse, a naive good guy trying to find herself who turns out to have bad programming. While superhumanly strong, her strengths and contribution revolve around the fact that she is a living computer. Mystique is not a trojan horse, she is a bad guy who is the right hand and love interest of the main villain who seeks to take over the world as a superior race. Not only this, but she is extremely dangerous because of her epic martial arts skills, and she's known for taking out a room full of large armed men with her martial arts prowess. So Vandervoort's Indigo doesn't just look like Mystique, but she fights like Mystique for no good reason and plays Mystique's role in the story.

You think Mystique and Indigo were the only females who plotted to take over the world with a man?
All female character can fight anymore. Even Harley Quinn. Indigo can fight so they can show her and Supergirl fighting. Because Mystique can fight is she ripping off Catwoman?
Also can Mystique travel though the internet like Indigo does?
Mystique can morph into other body forms. Could Indigo morph into another person? If so they never showed it.

Are there any ways in which Vandervoort's Indigo is similar to Indigo from the comics, aside from the name?

Same thing with Red Tornado nothing like the comic books. Just someone for Supergirl to fight. Oh, but he got compared to Vision a lot too. It just seems like any DC character that vaguely resembles a Marvel movie character is dubbed a rip-off. Vartox and Jemm were nothing like Vartox and Jemm from the comic books either. It's just they had no equivalent characters in a Marvel Movie.

 

[BH/HHH]

Damien Darhk was excellent too. I also liked Ra's, but they did not use him anywhere near as well as they could have done.

Yes Darhk was great ans I agree on Ra's too, Matt Nable gave a good performance I felt but the story didn't work, they dropped the ball on that one.