BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 1

[Tobias]

MOS opened with a(domestic) figure twice as high as GL,then went on to accumulate a ongoing total that is more or less 3x greater than GL's totals...

Not to mention that some reports have GL's budget higher than MOS.
I personally don't understand how you can keep comparing this film to GL, then again my math isn't all that great.

Also if you think adding bats to this has film is simply because MOS didn't do as well as you thought it should and not because of a multitude of other reasons, you might just have too much to prove here.

It is quite comparable to GL in terms of its weak hold.

It opened much larger but its multipler, if you use the 125 million opening, was less even than SR's. This is what WB is looking and this is IMO the reason for the sudden change of direction which apparently surprised even Snyder.

 

[Marvin]

It is quite comparable to GL in terms of its weak hold.

It opened much larger but its multipler, if you use the 125 million opening, was less even than SR's. This is what WB is looking and this is IMO the reason for the sudden change of direction which apparently surprised even Snyder.

If you are going to attempt to compare it's hold then you should do so in contenxt. GL didn't face off against 148 mill of direct two fold competition in it's second weekend. Ironman didn't, Avengers didn't, the only big film that has seen something like that was TFA.

Secondly, MOS's weekend figure is 116 last time I checked, if you are going to count thurs. Then you have to adjust the whole calculation by a day on mos or gl.

Lastly, pretty sure a studio is more excited by revenue over holds, let alone profit. If it was all about holds(again there was alot of weekend competition) then why did Twilight and Harry Potter keep getting sequels. Pretty sure MOS making more than IM and ASM made WB as happy as those films made their studios.

Think of it this way, if a film made 1 dollar every week for 5 months vs if a film made (say) 500mill over 5 months with 90% drops week to week. My point, however obtuse in this example is that profits make studios happy and MOS is doing so pretty great so far.

I do find it oddly ironic that MOS' opening domestic number(and june record) is GL's domestic total, only for the films now to be considered equivalent failures.

 

[Tobias]

If you are going to attempt to compare it's hold then you should do so in contenxt. GL didn't face off against 148 mill of direct two fold competition in it's second weekend. Ironman didn't, Avengers didn't, the only big film that has seen something like that was TFA.

Secondly, MOS's weekend figure is 116 last time I checked, if you are going to count thurs. Then you have to adjust the whole calculation by a day on mos or gl.

Lastly, pretty sure a studio is more excited by revenue over holds, let alone profit. If it was all about holds(again there was alot of weekend competition) then why did Twilight and Harry Potter keep getting sequels. Pretty sure MOS making more than IM and ASM made WB as happy as those films made their studios.

Think of it this way, if a film made 1 dollar every week for 5 months vs if a film made (say) 500mill over 5 months with 90% drops week to week. My point, however obtuse in this example is that profits make studios happy and MOS is doing so pretty great so far.

I do find it oddly ironic that MOS' opening domestic number(and june record) is GL's domestic total.

Well we don't and never will know what the studio expected apart from Robinov's 1 billion plus figure. If the studio really expected that or anything near it then - well its WB, what can you say.

There were folks here posting in the lead-up that they had "contacts" at the studio and that the studio was expecting huge numbers. Better than it did. But even they didn't claim the studio was expecting a billion plus as far as I recall.

Holds do count as they indicate WOM and are a factor in deciding on a sequel. The fact is WB has dropped plans for an MOS trilogy and is going with basically a WF and maybe a JL shortly after (if the Dread report is accurate).

I am harsh on the team and especially the writing as IMO it hurt the film a lot. Left a negative impression and the result - we are getting something but not the Superman trilogy I at least had hoped for.

I love the idea of WF but would have preferred an MOS2 and MOS3 over a WF and JL.

 

[Tra-El]

The fact is WB has dropped plans for an MOS trilogy and is going with basically a WF..

Fact? I must have missed something. I've been following MOS closely and missed this FACT of a trilogy. To my understanding, Snyder and Nolan, especially Nolan and Goyer, approach a film as one film and won't allow themselves to think of the pressure's of a sequel, let alone a trilogy.

Show me the straight FACT of somebody, anybody, saying that they hacked a MOS trilogy that was in the works. I'll be waiting for confirmation.

Other than that, I see a ton of "I's" in your post..

and maybe a JL shortly after(if the Dread report is accurate)

Shortly after? You were JUST saying in the MOS BO thread that a JL film wouldn't surface until around 2021.

I'd expect a focus on a stand-alone Batman for maybe as early as 2017 and maybe a second Bats and then, with the TV series and all, a JL film. 2020, 2021? Cavill finishing out his run in that film I suppose.

Tobias, Tobias, Tobias...

 

[Tobias]

Fact? I must have missed something. I've been following MOS closely and missed this FACT of a trilogy. To my understanding, Snyder and Nolan, especially Nolan and Goyer, approach's a film as one film and won't allow themselves to think of the pressure's of a sequel, let alone a trilogy.

Show me the straight FACT of somebody, anybody, saying that they hacked a MOS trilogy that was in the works. I'll be waiting for confirmation.

Other than that, I see a ton of "I's" in your post..

Shortly after? You were JUST saying in the MOS BO thread that a JL film wouldn't surface until around 2021. Tobias, Tobias, Tobias...

So you are saying the plan was for a single Superman film followed up by team-up films? Cavill is optioned for 3 films total. What comic book franchise has not been meant to get at least 1 and preferably 2 sequels. MOS would be alone in that.

Sorry, I was expecting a trilogy as Batman and Ironman and Spiderman and liely Thor (Thor 2 looks incredible) got.

We all have to make assumptions as WB is closed-mouth. Clearly Snyder was taken aback by the change in direction and not happy with it.

It is what it is. All we can do is hope WB doesn't mess up the team-up film or that may delay the Batman re-launch and kill JL.

 

[Tra-El]

So you are saying the plan was for a single Superman film followed up by team-up films?

Come on, it's not hard to connect dots. How many times, way, way, way before MOS was even released that people clamored that the DC Universe would depend on MOS, let alone the eventual Justice League? Man of Steel was the groundwork to the shared universe. It's time to connect that universe with the next installment, which happens to be a sequel AND a teammup.

Killing two birds with one stone. It's TIME dude. It's TIME, NOW, to do this. Not later. Not after a solo Man of Steel2. It's all riding to Justice League. Time is NOW before it's too late. As I said, this is Superman's world and it will be a sequel to MOS, but with the Bats. It's a win for WB and the fans.

Cavill is optioned for 3 films total.

That's the fact of the MOS trilogy? HC is returning for his second stint as Superman, which was announced as MOS wasn't even in full throttle of its first month at SDCC.

What comic book franchise has not been meant to get at least 1 and preferably 2 sequels. MOS would be alone in that.

Since you're gung-ho about reading into messages, like Zack Snyder "not happy" with this direction, I'll quote what he DID say, and that was "We are making another SUPERMAN movie." Interpret it as you must.

Sorry, I was expecting a trilogy as Batman and Ironman and Spiderman and liely Thor (Thor 2 looks incredible) got.

Iron Man's purpose was to set up Avengers. Spider-Man is a standalone, as Sony ownes his rights. Man of Steel was to set up the DC shared Universe.

Thor 2 is a product of the Avengers, the teammup movie (as is CA: WS.) Who's to say after Superman/Batman that Superman wouldn't get another solo from its success's somewhere down the line? You?

We all have to make assumptions as WB is closed-mouth. Clearly Snyder was taken aback by the change in direction and not happy with it.

That's not clear at all, man. He seemed pretty fired up with his announcement at SDCC.

It is what it is. All we can do is hope WB doesn't mess up the team-up film or that may delay the Batman re-launch and kill JL.

This is happening. WB made their stance. I believe Batman won't be the ONLY one appearing in WF/Superman-Batman. Think about it.

 

[Juha Bach]

My reaction at the thought that i have to tolerate Tobias for the next two years..

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about after a thread debating why MOS's ending is being met with such mixed reaction, when STM's is brought up(the film with far less mixed reception), your retort is that you didn't like that ending.

It would be like me making ground in this thread by saying well I liked superman snapping dudes neck. Ignoring the greater debate of how the films are being received.

Why is STM's wonky backwards yet fully triumphant ending so well received over the years? Is is a product of the times? Is it simply because that's the path to making the superman audience happy...etc
(feel free to tell me you didn't like it).

I have no idea what you are talking about, and i'm not really involved in any debate regarding the difference between the two films critical receptions

I responded to another 'but he's killed before post' by again pointing out that this argument is meaningless to me because I don't like ANY of the stories in which Superman kills. This was then challenged by questioning whether or not I thought Superman 2 sucked. To which I responded that I think it does, but then i'm not a fan of any of the old films.

All that is, is a discussion of my opinion.

I couldn't give a stuff about what's 'well recieved'. Whether STM was or whether MOS was. (Although i've really never heard a single thing about how well recieved the ending to STM was... I mean, people celebrate the film as a whole, but i've never seen any particular discussion on how amazing the ending was, or how it's the kind of ending all Superman movies should have )

I just care about them portraying the best version of the character they can.

And I really don't feel like they did, or that they will manage to in future projects either.

 

[Tobias]

For anyone concerned about the situation with the Superman franchise or with - specifically - the Batman/Superman team-up/sequel, may I suggest writing a letter. Snail mail.

I know there are petitions out there already about this, but I think letters are more effective. Supposedly studios and networks give added credence to letters, not e-mail.

I just sent off my second letter to WB. Keeping it positive, giving honest criticism where due, accepting the fact there will be no stand-alone MOS follow-up but encouraging the studio to do another stand-alone Superman film down the road.

BTW, WB replies - and they read the letter. I got a reply to my first letter and it referenced specifics I mentioned in that letter.

So, if you are frustrated, a bit worried, want to do something, this is one option.

My most recent letter:


Dear Mr. Tsujihara,
Kudos to WB for quickly announcing a Man of Steel sequel. It shows confidence in the franchise which is critical. Marvel does well not just because they turn out good films, but also because they believe in their properties and show that faith by announcing not just one sequel, but multiple sequels almost immediately after one of their films debuts.

The choice of a summer 2015 release is bold and, frankly, risky - given that Avengers 2 and Star Wars come out that summer. Most film pundits were expecting 2016. Hopefully, a June 2015 release can be avoided. On the positive side, judging from the reaction at ComicCon and the Twitter/online response, audiences are going to go crazy over MOS2.

Despite mixed reviews which legitimately critiqued MOS’s weak characterizations, flat dialogue and poor pacing, the film did over 600 million. The consensus on film sites, such as BOM, is that if reviews had been positive and the flaws not present, MOS would have made 800 million plus.

If MOS2 performs as I expect, by the time MOS3 comes out a billion dollar take could be within reach for the franchise. The only down side to MOS3 is that Mr. Cavill is quoted as saying he will play Superman in just three films, so MOS3 will mark the end of his Superman run. But, until then, I am going to enjoy the ride.

Clearly, the MOS2 script is critical. Just as important are the characterizations which need to pull audiences in. Given that Clark/Superman, Bruce/Batman and presumably Lex Luthor are in the film, the foundation is in place for great characterizations as these three are unique from one another and provide an abundance of material for drawing sharp contrasts and painting bold differences.

The MOS dialogue was so/so. There were no memorable lines in MOS as there were with Superman: The Movie, TDKR and Iron Man. With Superman/Batman, Superman/Lex Luthor and Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne interaction in MOS2, there is the potential for dialogue that is sharp, witty and that will leave audiences with more than a few memorable lines as they leave theatres.

Henry Cavill is key to the next film’s success. He must broaden his Superman portrayal. Henry is capable of much more than the one-dimensional/ brooding Superman audiences got in MOS. Let Henry play to the character’s complexity - let him give us a Superman who makes us laugh, cry and everything in between. Let him have fun with the character. Finally, Henry’s engaging natural charm needs to show forth in MOS2 – that charm was inexplicably missing in MOS.

If done right MOS2 could leave WB with three separate and financially strong franchises - Superman, Batman and Superman/Batman. Consideration might be given to ending MOS2 on a cliffhanger(s) with resolutions to come in MOS3 and a stand-alone Batman film. Leverage MOS2 to give a boost to the subsequent films.

Again, thank you WB for moving forward with MOS2. I will be just one of many thousands who will be eagerly following the film’s development and thoroughly enjoying the build-up to its release.

Sincerely

 

[Marvin]

I have no idea what you are talking about, and i'm not really involved in any debate regarding the difference between the two films critical receptions

You chimed in on my post about "Superman film vs Good film." You said that the ending to that film was not one you liked nor the only example of a triumphant ending to a Superman story.

Ergo my point about opinion. STM has been a celebrated achievement into the mythos since it's release. Start to finish. With a 92% RT score I would think the ending part of the story was "liked"
It has two writing awards in the adapted category.

The discussion was about a "Good film" vs a "Good Superman film"
Instead of using my opinion I was deferring to the general consensus of the so called critical masses of fanboys and film critics alike. According to these people MoS is a superman film with a mixed reception. STM is a superman film with an overwhelmingly warm reception and has been a milestone of genre and american cinema for 35 years.
One look at the RT scores speaks to it's reception. For many years the Donner verse has been brought up here and celebrated there for this that and the next thing. The one that defines superman for a generation. At this point in time, MOS isn't that.

STM being a well received Superman film isn't just my opinion, it's based on a form of consensus. Ergo why I brought up the line of discussion: Is a film the consensus sees as a good superman film the same as one these same groups see as a "good film"
Are the conventions the same, cause if they are one would think it's ending would be a technical deal breaker or sorts.

I point to STM being celebrated as a great superman film but with a failed ending that serves to drive home the point that superman will always save the day no matter how few choices the bad guy gives him. Deus Exing isn't good form but in a Superman film, as long as it serves the theme of absolute heroism and measured power, the film will be celebrated regardless. Man of steel has an ending of a very different nature and this less optimistic thing is a point of contention among many discussions. A super guy facing a tough choice with a plot that follows through on that choice. Contrasting that with making the choice of reversing the clock...still, one of these two endings is being touted a many as "not superman"

The question I suppose is, which ending to a film is weaker? I already know the answer to which one is a better ending to a superman film.

What's the point though, Superman kills in the sequel and that films and it's ending has been more warmly received. Forget I asked.

All that is, is a discussion of my opinion.

I couldn't give a stuff about what's 'well recieved'. Whether STM was or whether MOS was. (Although i've really never heard a single thing about how well recieved the ending to STM was... I mean, people celebrate the film as a whole, but i've never seen any particular discussion on how amazing the ending was, or how it's the kind of ending all Superman movies should have )

Lots of reviews(positive and negative) speak on MOS' ending. Reading many of the STM reviews, the ending(conflict resolution that is) is almost never brought up. Sadly there are no forum databases I can pull up to show what the GA was talking about back when that film came out as I can now with MOS, but I do wonder if that films ending was as dissected and or lambasted as this ones has been during it's theatrical run. Were fan boys more off put by that films contrivance or the ending to MoS?

I just care about them portraying the best version of the character they can.

And I really don't feel like they did, or that they will manage to in future projects either.

To be fair that might very well be your intent, however I think you are more concerned with them portraying the version of the character you are more enamored with.

In regards to triumphant endings, you went on to suggest that in order to do so they, "Look at pretty much every Superman story in the comics... They are all right there."
I'm confused, When you say pretty much every, you must mean the stories you personally don't think suck. It's quite the situation we are in...

You seemingly dismiss any and everything superman as bad or not worth noting depending on whether it fits your personal collection of celebration. Then go on to suggest the producers simply look at the breadth of the superman canon for inspiration.
If someone cites one of the many instances superman has done something you suggest he doesn't do, you go on to suggest it's not just worth ignoring but that it's also an instance of failed writing. That's all well and good when it comes to elaborating on why this piece in question wasn't for you but it's confusing the matter on whether this MOS film is a good film or a failure. Superman or otherwise.

 

[king666]

Here's what I think: right now, WB wants a DC universe. They don't want Superman alone. They want Flash, they want Wonder Woman, they want Batman, they want Justice League. And they want it fast. From this point of view, introducing Batman in the Superman sequel makes a lot of sense.

 

[Tobias]

Here's what I think: right now, WB wants a DC universe. They don't want Superman alone. They want Flash, they want Wonder Woman, they want Batman, they want Justice League. And they want it fast. From this point of view, introducing Batman in the Superman sequel makes a lot of sense.

Yes, but in the rush to a Batman, Flash and WW franchise via JL (Batman via the Batman vs Superman film) what happens to the Superman franchise?

Does the next stand alone Supes film go to the end of the line now? WF in 2015. JL 2017. Batman 2019. 5, 6, 7 years launching WW, Flash and others?

I'm first and foremost a Supes fan and, if that is the plan, I don't like it.

As to wanting it fast - beware of what you hope for. WF or whatever it is called is being way too rushed if indeed they stick with the summer 2015 release.

 

[EssayM]

Just to clarify: I wasn't comparing MOS to GL. I was merely quoting a Box Office Mojo article that compares their grosses, and even then only in terms of second-week drop. Here is the article: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=3695&p=.htm

 

[PacificBoy]

Dread.

Holy bananas, Batman! As far as rumours go, this is a doozy.

 

[Loki882]

I've heard ZERO concrete news about JL, so arguing that its being rushed is simply not true. WB is so petrified of WW that they put her CW TV SHOW on hold, and there is still no indication of when a Flash movie might happen. How is anything being rushed exactly?

 

[Lily Adler]

Let's start a suicide pact, I got my cyanide capsule ready.

 

[TheBat812]

Alot of people assum that the inclusion of Batman makes this Superman movie immediately bad. What gives? The dynamic between the two can play a perfect thematic role from where they left off in MOS. It's kind of the perfect place to go with a Supes who's figuring out what his moral code is and what he will stand for to the people of Earth.

 

[Loki882]

Comic book fans seem to be instinctively pessimistic by nature. I've noticed that many of them instantly assume the worst about a project rather than hoping for the best. For example, instead of saying "two icons in the same movie could be epically awesome" its "Batman will make Superman look like a punk, why would WB do this?"

 

[Andreth]

Dread.

Let's start a suicide pact, I got my cyanide capsule ready.

Save one for me please!!

 

[Herolee10]

Alot of people assum that the inclusion of Batman makes this Superman movie immediately bad. What gives? The dynamic between the two can play a perfect thematic role from where they left off in MOS. It's kind of the perfect place to go with a Supes who's figuring out what his moral code is and what he will stand for to the people of Earth.

Honestly, I think it's a mixture of A LOT of things really.

1. A lot of people were hoping for this new film (whether you view it as a direct sequel or a crossover/team up film) to be a true direct sequel to MOS where Superman wouldn't have to share his screen time with any major DC hero that wasn't from his mythology.

2. Superman doesn't exactly have the best history of being portrayed at his best within the media when he shares the screen with Batman.

3. Snyder is supposedly known for his love of Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" comic book arc which is known to be hated by quite a few superman fans due to how Superman was portrayed there. Not to mention that it was said awhile ago that Snyder has recently gone to Miller to receive some advice regarding this film.

4. Supermhomepage, which is known to be a very reliable website, said that one of their sources managed to get a quote from Snyder on how regardless of how he felt about Superman personally, that this film would go towards the direction that Warner Bros. felt was best for it.

5. I think that if there's one thing people can agree on for MOS, whether you loved it or hate it, is that it had issues in its script and if Snyder and Goyer already have trouble handling one Major DC character, what are the chances that they can make a great film that features two of DC's biggest heroes.

Comic book fans seem to be instinctively pessimistic by nature. I've noticed that many of them instantly assume the worst about a project rather than hoping for the best. For example, instead of saying "two icons in the same movie could be epically awesome" its "Batman will make Superman look like a punk, why would WB do this?"

This is the same studio that allowed Burton to nearly take off with his horrendous take on Superman, that allowed Joel to create a batman suit with nipples, that allowed Singer to present Superman in such a bad light regarding his connection with Jason White, that allowed Green Lantern to be made the way it was.

At the end of the day, Warner Bros's biggest concern is their profit, something that they care about more so than how the film may be "critically" received. They're not like Marvel Studios where they care more about the story and quality of the film, so as long as they get as much money in as they can because they're not a film studio that's designated to focus on making comic book films.

 

[georgec]

Dread.

That was one of the more depressing things I've read lately. I can't say I doubt the overall tone, though I'm still quite dubious of the Orlando Bloom rumors.

But it's clear DC/WB are screwing themselves big time.

 

[Lily Adler]

Save one for me please!!

No worries, I bought them in bulk (thanks CostCo!)

 

[Andreth]

No worries, I bought them in bulk (thanks CostCo!)

When shall we take them ? when they cast Manganiello as Batman? when they hire Miller? or when Goyer's script gets leaked?

 

[Tobias]

When shall we take them ? when they cast Manganiello as Batman? when they hire Miller? or when Goyer's script gets leaked?

Being an optimist I am hoping the project collapses - due to "creative differences".

WB has apparently written off the Superman franchise after MOS but no way they are going to write-off a potential new Batman franchise. When the script comes in, unless it is incredible, someone just might say - no. Batman is all we have and this will wreck any potential for a new Bats franchise. Remember JL was a few weeks short of pre-production a number of years back and WB pulled the plug.

 

[Herolee10]

When shall we take them ? when they cast Manganiello as Batman? when they hire Miller? or when Goyer's script gets leaked?

When the knowledge of how Warner Bros may end up wasting such a great pairing and talent in Cavil and Adams from their respective roles....


Maybe Superman is cursed?lol

I mean you got to admit folks, the character has yet to have a film that's been both critically AND financially successful since Superman 2, which was like 30 years ago, and the character has not had a direct sequel since the mid 80's.

Sometimes it feels like Batman will be the only DC character to ever have it good since his "golden days" (ala the Nolan franchise) was made when the Avengers wasn't an issue, along with how his franchise was spearheaded by someone like Chris Nolan that had a great vision for the character from beginning to end.

If the rumors are true, it feels like Snyder and Goyer are nothing more than sellouts at this point and you'd think that if really wanted to make a great superman film that he'd do his best under these circumstances if it's true that he's eyeballing the likes of Bloom for the Batman role, then he's just buried himself further into an already deep hole.