BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 1

[EssayM]

How were the Nolan films not Batman films exactly? There have been dozens of different takes on Batman, Nolan simply had one such take. There is no on Batman, but many.

There is a common portrayal of Batman and his world that appears in most incarnations, and Nolan chose to forgo it in favor of the story he wanted to tell. It was a good story (mostly), but the fact remains that it was not much related to Batman.

 

[Tra-El]

Just curious. As I too feel MOS was weak film. Instead of asking what was wrong creatively with MOS I'll make it positive - what would have made it a good film in your opinion?

A weak film? Nonsense! Just because you take issue with dialogue here and there and just flat out didn't like it enough to where you're writing letters, doesn't make it a weak film.

In fact, what many people didnt like about it was that it was such of a STRONG film that didn't let up.

Come on dude, weak? Snyder went for the cheese and for once in our lives, we got a non-conservative Superman film.

Krypton was fleshed out to the MAX and wasn't just one big..ice cube. Jor-EL had a HUGE role. Lois Lane kicked some ass and wasnt handled like a dang idiot for once.

Lois found out who Superman was in the first act! That's ballsy, not weak. Faora was terrifyingly ferocious. Superman was forced to off a villain. Pa Kent is being held against because he actually had concern for his young son. Clark listened to his fathers wishes and let him parish because the world was NOT ready for aliens to walk amongst us.

The story was told in a non-lineur way, included flashbacks and pitted Clark Kent in the Daily Planet where people know his true identity.

Weak? No, you're just out of your comfort zone, dude. You don't have to like the film, but it was anything but weak. If ANYTHING, it showed power to be aggressive with a character stuck in the Disco-era. I applaud Snyder for giving MOS hair on its......

 

[Smallville13]

Yo Marvin, be interested to read your take on this.

 

[STARMAN]

My feelings toward this film go up and down each day but when they start filming I'll be staring at set photos with anticipation.

 

[Rowsdower!]

A weak film? Nonsense! Just because you take issue with dialogue here and there and just flat out didn't like it enough to where you're writing letters, doesn't make it a weak film.

In fact, what many people didnt like about it was that it was such of a STRONG film that didn't let up.

Come on dude, weak? Snyder went for the cheese and for once in our lives, we got a non-conservative Superman film.

Krypton was fleshed out to the MAX and wasn't just one big..ice cube. Jor-EL had a HUGE role. Lois Lane kicked some ass and wasnt handled like a dang idiot for once.

Lois found out who Superman was in the first act! That's ballsy, not weak. Faora was terrifyingly ferocious. Superman was forced to off a villain. Pa Kent is being held against because he actually had concern for his young son. Clark listened to his fathers wishes and let him parish because the world was NOT ready for aliens to walk amongst us.

The story was told in a non-lineur way, included flashbacks and pitted Clark Kent in the Daily Planet where people know his true identity.

Weak? No, you're just out of your comfort zone, dude. You don't have to like the film, but it was anything but weak. If ANYTHING, it showed power to be aggressive with a character stuck in the Disco-era. I applaud Snyder for giving MOS hair on its......

I agree with all of that. I applaud Snyder and Goyer for making some bold choices, even if they ultimately didn't turn out to be the ones most fans would have been comfortable with. So many people get convinced that THEIR vision of a character is the only one that is correct, but Superman (like every other long-lasting comic book character out there) has struggled with consistency because SO many writers and artists have taken a crack at him. And that's okay; if the character never, ever changed and never did anything unexpected, then he WOULD be boring.

 

[Migu-EL]

It's funny, cause everyone outside of this forum that I talk to about MOS tell me they thought it was awesome and the best movie of the summer. Then I go on this forum and read that a few people hated the movie, it's just such a wide discrepancy. I can undersand that some people may not have loved the film or thouht it was just ok, but for some people to say it just flat out sucks, boggles my mind. I guess everyone has their own taste in movies.

 

[Rowsdower!]

It's funny, cause everyone outside of this forum that I talk to about MOS tell me they thought it was awesome and the best movie of the summer. Then I go on this forum and read that a few people hated the movie, it's just such a wide discrepancy. I can undersand that some people may not have loved the film or thouht it was just ok, but for some people to say it just flat out sucks, boggles my mind. I guess everyone has their own taste in movies.

Yeah, I don't get it either. Some of the things that "ruined" the movie for people leave me scratching my head. I know one guy who thought the movie sucked SOLELY because he thought the heat vision looked fake. I mean, seriously? What is heat vision supposed to look like?

 

[Marvin]

It's funny, cause everyone outside of this forum that I talk to about MOS tell me they thought it was awesome and the best movie of the summer. Then I go on this forum and read that a few people hated the movie, it's just such a wide discrepancy. I can undersand that some people may not have loved the film or thouht it was just ok, but for some people to say it just flat out sucks, boggles my mind. I guess everyone has their own taste in movies.

It's the way the internet and forums in particular work. Sort of a like a bubble of self importance. Last time this happened was ASM I think.

Sequel reception and performance usually serve the purpose of a metaphorical swift slap to the back of the neck imo.

 

[Migu-EL]

A weak film? Nonsense! Just because you take issue with dialogue here and there and just flat out didn't like it enough to where you're writing letters, doesn't make it a weak film.

In fact, what many people didnt like about it was that it was such of a STRONG film that didn't let up.

Come on dude, weak? Snyder went for the cheese and for once in our lives, we got a non-conservative Superman film.

Krypton was fleshed out to the MAX and wasn't just one big..ice cube. Jor-EL had a HUGE role. Lois Lane kicked some ass and wasnt handled like a dang idiot for once.

Lois found out who Superman was in the first act! That's ballsy, not weak. Faora was terrifyingly ferocious. Superman was forced to off a villain. Pa Kent is being held against because he actually had concern for his young son. Clark listened to his fathers wishes and let him parish because the world was NOT ready for aliens to walk amongst us.

The story was told in a non-lineur way, included flashbacks and pitted Clark Kent in the Daily Planet where people know his true identity.

Weak? No, you're just out of your comfort zone, dude. You don't have to like the film, but it was anything but weak. If ANYTHING, it showed power to be aggressive with a character stuck in the Disco-era. I applaud Snyder for giving MOS hair on its......

Well said. MOS was the Superman film that I had been waiting for. So, I'm extremely happy with what I got.

 

[Marvin]

The apprehension on the part of fans might be due to the involvement of the guys who, unchecked, made Blade: Trinity and Sucker Punch, and are now without the oversight of the guy who made Inception and Memento (and before anyone tries to correct me, remember that Tim Burton was also "executive producer" on a superhero movie once).

Now that nolan is "gone" perhaps these lesser talents who have been responsible for more faithful adaptations in the past will produce something different. Batman in particular.

That's the opposing perspective anyways.

 

[Migu-EL]

Yeah, I don't get it either. Some of the things that "ruined" the movie for people leave me scratching my head. I know one guy who thought the movie sucked SOLELY because he thought the heat vision looked fake. I mean, seriously? What is heat vision supposed to look like?

Different strokes for different folks I guess.. lol.. By the way, the heat vision looked awesome.

 

[Migu-EL]

It's the way the internet and forums in particular work. Sort of a like a bubble of self importance. Last time this happened was ASM I think.

Sequel reception and performance usually serve the purpose of a metaphorical swift slap to the back of the neck imo.

True. Some people love to be a critic.

 

[Tra-El]

I agree with all of that. I applaud Snyder and Goyer for making some bold choices, even if they ultimately didn't turn out to be the ones most fans would have been comfortable with. So many people get convinced that THEIR vision of a character is the only one that is correct, but Superman (like every other long-lasting comic book character out there) has struggled with consistency because SO many writers and artists have taken a crack at him. And that's okay; if the character never, ever changed and never did anything unexpected, then he WOULD be boring.

And you WONDER why Batman and Iron Man are way more popular than Supes. It's because writers of any profession have an open book on a character that can practically do ANYTHING when it comes to actions, subplots, wit, humor, and downright cockieness.

Superman spectators, and what its looking like, his fans, want to have their cake and eat it too with the character. "But, but, but he stands for this! Not that! But, but, he should be written like this! He NEVER would say that! But make him like this without him having to do that! This is Superman! Not..."

Do you understand how doomed Superman is for the sake of being..himself? He can't do ANYTHING right when all eyes on on him. I guess people want him to be boring without being TOO boring. The character is seriously limited and it shows in MOS's complaints. Again, I applaud Snyder for going outside of the box and doing some things that allowed people to actually THINK if they liked that rather than just accepting Superman for being...Superman.

Go along, Supes. Be boring without being TOO boring. Seems like its a lose-lose. What makes Batman so popular is "because I'm Batman!" While what makes Superman so damn stale is because Supes is simply Supes, even when he tries to do cool and different things, its simply...not Superman, so. I give up, lol.

 

[Loki882]

EssayM, there have been different versions of Batman and his world. Nolan made BATMAN films, more grounded films, but the basics of Batman are still there.

 

[Marvin]

Yo Marvin, be interested to read your take on this.

Well written opinion. I disagree on plenty of it but I commend you for putting it out there.

I would add that your rational for why writers are more eager to do batman than superman might bear some truth though I doubt people like Morrison and Scott Snyder see things that way(they seem to enjoy writing both). I would add that when a creator takes on superman he faces a particular obstacle. The inherent antiquities that are both celebrated and condemned by a divided audience. Making the perfect superman film for the evolving modern audience is an interesting prospect.

Batman is in his design for the modern audience, you can always change him for our world and it will be awesome for fans and the GA alike. For example you can take away his undies and have successful terrorism in his modern films and it will be swell, inversely you can have him be in that wonky Brave and Bold show and "it's still batman". With superman you face some obstacles on that front. But I digress.

I think the fundamental issue with all of this is the simple way we choose to derive our assumptions on these matters. For example, with Morrison's quote about Batman being the teen fantasy and Superman being adult and his rhetoric for such. This could easily be reversed and argued the other way around, it's the way of art.
He then goes on to explain how because of his rhetoric, this is what superman films should be. We are all set in our ways, I've rarely seen that affect a films reception as intensely. Thus back my first point, why perhaps creators prefer working on batman.

 

[Marvin]

And you WONDER why Batman and Iron Man are way more popular than Supes. It's because writers of any profession have an open book on a character that can practically do ANYTHING when it comes to actions, subplots, wit, humor, and downright cockieness.

Superman spectators, and what its looking like, his fans, want to have their cake and eat it too with the character. "But, but, but he stands for this! Not that! But, but, he should be written like this! He NEVER would say that! But make him like this without him having to do that! This is Superman! Not..."

Do you understand how doomed Superman is for the sake of being..himself? He can't do ANYTHING right when all eyes on on him. I guess people want him to be boring without being TOO boring. The character is seriously limited and it shows in MOS's complaints. Again, I applaud Snyder for going outside of the box and doing some things that allowed people to actually THINK if they liked that rather than just accepting Superman for being...Superman.

Go along, Supes. Be boring without being TOO boring. Seems like its a lose-lose. What makes Batman so popular is "because I'm Batman!" While what makes Superman so damn stale is because Supes is simply Supes, even when he tries to do cool and different things, its simply...not Superman, so. I give up, lol.

I'm pretty excited to see how Snyder and the producers react to this however. In an age where 3rd act's usually involve explosions in cities, the producers were met with the harsh reality that they are dealing with an audience that simply wasn't ready to accept that from a superman film. To the point where no matter how heroic in nature, his actions could be seen by some as "not heroic" even villainous...
I look forward to seeing how they deal with this reality.

Had this been a thor movie things might be different, with superman it's a different game.

 

[Smallville13]

Well written opinion. I disagree on plenty of it but I commend you for putting it out there.

I would add that your rational for why writers are more eager to do batman than superman might bear some truth though I doubt people like Morrison and Scott Snyder see things that way(they seem to enjoy writing both). I would add that when a creator takes on superman he faces a particular obstacle. The inherent antiquities that are both celebrated and condemned by a divided audience. Making the perfect superman film for the evolving modern audience is an interesting prospect.

Batman is in his design for the modern audience, you can always change him for our world and it will be awesome for fans and the GA alike. For example you can take away his undies and have successful terrorism in his modern films and it will be swell, inversely you can have him be in that wonky Brave and Bold show and "it's still batman". With superman you face some obstacles on that front. But I digress.

I think the fundamental issue with all of this is the simple way we choose to derive our assumptions on these matters. For example, with Morrison's quote about Batman being the teen fantasy and Superman being adult and his rhetoric for such. This could easily be reversed and argued the other way around, it's the way of art.
He then goes on to explain how because of his rhetoric, this is what superman films should be. We are all set in our ways, I've rarely seen that affect a films reception as intensely. Thus back my first point, why perhaps creators prefer working on batman.

Thanks. That took a while to type, and I figured you were maybe the only one to type a considered response.

Yeah creators like Grant Morrison, Mark Waid, Elliot S. Maggin, and Alan Moore, are the ones that really do love the character, their work has subsequently gone on to inform the character. They understand the character, and the understand what his stories are. The verdicts still out on Scott Snyder (Superman Unchained), but we'll see.

Yeah you're right about the rhetoric. The main point I was making though was about the different types of stories the two characters represent. Batman is dark edginess, thrill, powerful cars, technology, gadgets, crime drama, homicidal extravagant villains, etc. Whereas Superman is a celebration of life and adventure, color, nature, humanity, etc.

It seems most creatives, and well everyone really, just understand the appeal of Batman immediately. They just instantly get it. No so with Superman. And I really hoped MOS would change that. But I don't think that's the case unfortunately.

 

[Marvin]

I think with most of these CBM's, the bigger bolder ones tend to need a running start before they really make their point.

It's almost like there is an acclimatizing process. Sometimes this has been explained as "getting past the origin". Either way it took a sequel to really have the audience back and understand singers xmen, it took a sequel to get everyone on board with organic web no quipping power ranger villain spidey...etc. I say give it a sequel before you decide on whether MOS has changed anything.
Though with Ironman there seems to have been an inverse process.

 

[Smallville13]

Does Batman/Superman count as the sequel then? We still don't really know if it's a Superman film or a World's Finest film.

 

[Tobias]

Does Batman/Superman count as the sequel then? We still don't really know if it's a Superman film or a World's Finest film.

No. Its a team up film. Looks like MOS was indeed a stand alone. Will there be any more stand-alone Superman films? I hope so but with WB and not doing a straight on MOS2 they may have given up on the franchise and will use Superman in supporting roles only in team films.

The whole thing is a hot mess and it would be nice if Snyder or someone from WB would come forward and tell us what their plans, long-term and after WF, are for Superman. Lordy, if he is not going to get any more of his own films then give him a TV series on CW as Flash is getting.

 

[Juha Bach]

Does Batman/Superman count as the sequel then? We still don't really know if it's a Superman film or a World's Finest film.

There is some confusion about this that needs clarity.Though, Zack basically said that they are making a superman film with Batman being one of the elements in it. So for me, until its confirmed, its MOS 2 featuring Batman.

 

[Frodo]

I think with most of these CBM's, the bigger bolder ones tend to need a running start before they really make their point.

It's almost like there is an acclimatizing process. Sometimes this has been explained as "getting past the origin". Either way it took a sequel to really have the audience back and understand singers xmen, it took a sequel to get everyone on board with organic web no quipping power ranger villain spidey...etc. I say give it a sequel before you decide on whether MOS has changed anything.
Though with Ironman there seems to have been an inverse process.

I'd agree with this. I'd say that MOS can be considered somewhat of a break from past versions of Superman from the pov of a lot of fans , though I think even that's debatable given how much of MOS was already done in one form or another on L&C and Smallville .

As a film though, I don't see it as a ground breaking film for the genre as a whole as say STM, TDK, Avengers, X2, or Spiderman 2 were, but for the canon of the Superman character on film and TV itself, I'd say its a milestone of sorts.

 

[Destructus86]

Damn, yeah that is in the minority!

Just to clarify though... are you saying you liked the Dark Knight movies as films but didn't think they worked as Batman movies? Just curious what made you think that. Was it the portrayal of Batman or something else?

Oh yeah, I thought TDK trilogy was a fantastic trilogy of films...generally speaking. But I hated the portrayal of Batman. (what little we got of him...in the last film he had like 15-20 mins of screen time)

1) The fighting style was nothing like the Batman we know from the comics. More boxer than ninja. (granted, this is partly because he couldn't do kicks very well in his bulky suit)

2) Lack of gadgets. He had a tiny few, but for the most part he just punched people. For a character known for gadgets, he barely used any.

3) Very little emphasis placed on his intelligence and detective skills. There's a few scenes that give us a glimpse that he might be a genius/master detective.

4) Master of the shadows. We see one or two scenes in the first film, but after that it's like they forgot Batman and the shadows go together.

5) Too much emphasis placed on Bruce not enough on Batman. (as shown by the lack of Batman scenes in the films) Batman is who he is...Bruce is just a cover. But you never really get that impression from Nolan's run. This is because so much of the films are focused on Bruce and what's going on in his life.

 

[Rowsdower!]

And you WONDER why Batman and Iron Man are way more popular than Supes. It's because writers of any profession have an open book on a character that can practically do ANYTHING when it comes to actions, subplots, wit, humor, and downright cockieness.

Superman spectators, and what its looking like, his fans, want to have their cake and eat it too with the character. "But, but, but he stands for this! Not that! But, but, he should be written like this! He NEVER would say that! But make him like this without him having to do that! This is Superman! Not..."

Do you understand how doomed Superman is for the sake of being..himself? He can't do ANYTHING right when all eyes on on him. I guess people want him to be boring without being TOO boring. The character is seriously limited and it shows in MOS's complaints. Again, I applaud Snyder for going outside of the box and doing some things that allowed people to actually THINK if they liked that rather than just accepting Superman for being...Superman.

Go along, Supes. Be boring without being TOO boring. Seems like its a lose-lose. What makes Batman so popular is "because I'm Batman!" While what makes Superman so damn stale is because Supes is simply Supes, even when he tries to do cool and different things, its simply...not Superman, so. I give up, lol.

Yeah, it's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations I guess. Most of the complaints just seem so nitpicky to me, and more than any I've seen for ANY other film of the genre (and superhero fans... we can be a nitpicky bunch). But especially with Superman, it's like you said... most of it is: "He did THIS when I think he should have done THIS!" And you know, if I'm talking to Mark Waid or someone who has written Superman, maybe they do have a point. But if I'm talking a fan like me, who are THEY to tell me that the movie got Superman "completely wrong" when I've been reading comics just as long as they have and I didn't feel that way at all?

Anyway... it's sad because people get so stuck in how a movie is "supposed" to be that anything that deviates from the plot they already had worked out in their heads makes it a failure to them.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

A weak film? Nonsense! Just because you take issue with dialogue here and there and just flat out didn't like it enough to where you're writing letters, doesn't make it a weak film.

In fact, what many people didnt like about it was that it was such of a STRONG film that didn't let up.

Come on dude, weak? Snyder went for the cheese and for once in our lives, we got a non-conservative Superman film.

Krypton was fleshed out to the MAX and wasn't just one big..ice cube. Jor-EL had a HUGE role. Lois Lane kicked some ass and wasnt handled like a dang idiot for once.

Lois found out who Superman was in the first act! That's ballsy, not weak. Faora was terrifyingly ferocious. Superman was forced to off a villain. Pa Kent is being held against because he actually had concern for his young son. Clark listened to his fathers wishes and let him parish because the world was NOT ready for aliens to walk amongst us.

The story was told in a non-lineur way, included flashbacks and pitted Clark Kent in the Daily Planet where people know his true identity.

Weak? No, you're just out of your comfort zone, dude. You don't have to like the film, but it was anything but weak. If ANYTHING, it showed power to be aggressive with a character stuck in the Disco-era. I applaud Snyder for giving MOS hair on its......

It's funny, cause everyone outside of this forum that I talk to about MOS tell me they thought it was awesome and the best movie of the summer. Then I go on this forum and read that a few people hated the movie, it's just such a wide discrepancy. I can undersand that some people may not have loved the film or thouht it was just ok, but for some people to say it just flat out sucks, boggles my mind. I guess everyone has their own taste in movies.

Well, that's just it. A few or select people who hate the movie but repeat themselves constantly in different threads giving the impression there is more hatred for this film than there actually really is. That's how it usually works on the internet, not just with this movie either.

And look at the thread you are in, it deals with dread, it is to be expected. None of the hate that I have read on here has dampened my love for MOS in the slightest. It is easily one of my favorite superhero films ever made. I found it bold, exciting and emotional. Hopefully this follow-up can deliver as well.