BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 2

[Rowsdower!]

Just because some people feel that way doesn't mean most people do. Sometimes, people criticize a film because it didn't do enough to win them over based on its own merits. Ironically, I feel that the only people who even mention the Donnerverse on a regular basis around here are the ones who feel the need to **** on it or use it as an excuse to avoid addressing legitimate problems one might have with MOS.

While it's true that some MOS fans do rip into the Donnerverse unfairly, there are also some staunch defenders of the Donnerverse around here who seem to mention how it did everything better in nearly every one of their posts. So while it may be true that some MOS fans are unwilling to see the flaws in their film, I think it's also true that some Donner diehards didn't even give MOS a chance to begin with.

 

[zryson]

People just weren't ready for a darker take on Superman. Plain and simple. S:TM set a tonal standard for Superman that everyone expects and MoS took a radical shift in another direction. As with any jarring change, it will take time for people to accept it and get used to it.

I think people might have accepted Man of Steel better with less jarring editing and more emphasis on the characters. As such, it tried to set the same tone as the Nolan Batman films and came off looking decidedly messy. But then there is always Superman The Movie, which still resonates just as strongly to this day and is a beloved classic.

 

[The Batman]

People will always accept a different approach when the product is good. MOS left some wanting in several aspects, and that's why it has the divisive response that it does.

When a Superman movie can do for the character in 2014 what STM did in 1978, a wider majority of Superman fans will be on board, imo.

 

[Frodo]

See, I didn't see MOS as radical a shift as alot of fans did. In the context of whats been done with the character in the 20 odd years since the Donner film, it seem like such a big change. We had Lois and Clark in the 90s where the secret was revealed and they were a couple, we had SR when Superman was a baby daddy who left earth for five years, we had a darker take on the myth in Smallville in which PA kent dies because of some change Clark makes to space and time or whatever, We had the death of Superman in the comics, we had more emphasis on the alien side in birthright etc, we had STAS.

So to me MOS wasn't so radical and different from what we've had for a couple generations. However, if you're main frame of reference for Superman was the Reeve films I could see how MOS could be a radical shift. But for me, I felt MOS was very much highlights of the first four seasons of Smallville, with plotpoints from Superman 1 and 2 ,and a bit of John Bryne throw in here and there.

In the context of what's happened with the character in film, tv, animation, and the comics since the 90s, the film didn't seem like a radical change to me. However , in the context of how far things have changed since the Reeve films , yeah, it is a radical shift from those films, the same way the Batman of the Adam West era was not the Batman of the Michael Keaton era.

 

[The Batman]

Frodo, you are absolutely correct. Some people would have you believe that the Donner verse has some kind of stranglehold over the entire franchise, but that's never been the case. People only like to think that way because of SR, and even then that movie did things with Superman that the Donner movies would never do.

People like to conveniently ignore that there are many entry points into the Superman franchise, all to support their theory that MOS only gets bashed because people can't let go of Donner.

 

[Lencho01]

And that's why DCUA Lex is the best Lex. Because he was being written by guys who actually knew and respected Lex's entire history.

Yeah...even if the films get better than MOS, I'm not expecting something as visionary as Nolan's Batman.

And it's not hard to have a Lex who created an empire as a means to an end for whatever crazy ideas he comes up with, especially when he becomes obsessed with Superman. As far as popular exposure to the general audience goes, I think Red Sun Lex is a good example too.

I don't have too much love for Nolan's Batman, but you can clearly see the benefits of someone creating a story exactly as they want with no worries of connecting it to another set of characters from a different film or anything like that.

 

[Boy Scout]

While it's true that some MOS fans do rip into the Donnerverse unfairly, there are also some staunch defenders of the Donnerverse around here who seem to mention how it did everything better in nearly every one of their posts.

Which means they're going out of their way to be annoying, and therefore aren't the people I'm trying to defend.

So while it may be true that some MOS fans are unwilling to see the flaws in their film, I think it's also true that some Donner diehards didn't even give MOS a chance to begin with.

Of course those people exist. What I'm saying is I haven't come across any of them. What I have seen are MOS defenders who assign that criticism to everyone who has a problem with the film, even if they have no real evidence.

...People like to conveniently ignore that there are many entry points into the Superman franchise, all to support their theory that MOS only gets bashed because people can't let go of Donner.

Like the cartoons. Or...I don't know...the comics.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Both versions have their strengths and weakness in relating the Superman mythos, personally I adore both films.

 

[Human Torch]

People will always accept a different approach when the product is good. MOS left some wanting in several aspects, and that's why it has the divisive response that it does.

When a Superman movie can do for the character in 2014 what STM did in 1978, a wider majority of Superman fans will be on board, imo.

Exactly.

After 30 years I don't mind cutting ties with the Donnerverse and a reboot going forward.But MOS failed in pretty much each and every aspect of the Superman mythos.If not for a better than average cast,the film would be completely forgettable.

 

[The Batman]

^ If anything, I find myself going back to the Donner films because MOS was disappointing for me. I wish I could say there was a great modern Superman film, but I just don't think there has been.

 

[Gavan]

I don't think Terrio can create a good story. His strength is adapting from existing source material (like already written stories or novels). Just look at his resume. Terrio's real strength is writing back-story for the individual characters in a tale.

This is all based on comics, right? He already has a better record of adapting stuff than Goyer because he wasn't involved with MOS.

And character work is badly needed in this after MOS.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Yeah, outside of the Nolan Trilogy Goyer's resume is pretty awful (Blade 1 and 2 had their moments to be fair. Dark City was completely rewritten). Terrio's hiring was a bit of unvarnished good news.

 

[dnno1]

This is all based on comics, right? He already has a better record of adapting stuff than Goyer because he wasn't involved with MOS.

And character work is badly needed in this after MOS.

Dude, Chris Terrio has never written or adapted a comic book story before. In fact he is only credited for writing two films ("Argo", which was adapted from a novel, and "Heights", of which he provided additional screenplay material). Ben Affleck and Matt Damon have been credited with more screenplays that Terrio. What Chris Terrio is good at is writing the fill in material for the different actors in an ensemble film. He has never written any original material on his own. Goyer has written original material (stories) based on existing comic book properties. That is why he is still getting credit.

 

[dnno1]

Yeah, outside of the Nolan Trilogy Goyer's resume is pretty awful (Blade 1 and 2 had their moments to be fair. Dark City was completely rewritten). Terrio's hiring was a bit of unvarnished good news.

You should check before you post. Goyer is credited for a couple of stories in the Call of Duty Black Ops franchise, and the Blade trilogy has been nominated for several awards (Although Blade Trinity disappointed some fans, the film was still nominated for Saturn Award - Best Horror Film). I guess it goes without saying that he is also credited for writing the story for the last 3 Batman films.

 

[STARMAN]

Goyer has strengths and weaknesses. I don't think he's great at writing snappy character banter. All I know of Terrio is Argo. I'm hoping he can write some sharp character banter and balance Goyer out a bit.

 

[dnno1]

Goyer has strengths and weaknesses. I don't think he's great at writing snappy character banter. All I know of Terrio is Argo. I'm hoping he can write some sharp character banter and balance Goyer out a bit.

And this is what I am trying to convey. Goyer wrote the story (i.e. the film treatment) and Terrio is writing the parts (i.e. the screenplay). It was a winning formula with "The Dark Knight" and "The Dark Knight Rises", and it would stand to reason that it will work for "Batman v Superman".

 

[The Endless]

Saturn Awards? lol.

But no seriously, the first Blade was fantastic and Goyer is partly responsible for completely rejuvenating and reinventing that character.

 

[dnno1]

Saturn Awards? lol.

But no seriously, the first Blade was fantastic and Goyer is partly responsible for completely rejuvenating and reinventing that character.

The Golden Scroll is one of the primer awards for science fiction and horror genre. Films like "The Hunger Games", Marvel's "Avengers", and "The Hobbit" have been nominated or won in the past. I would think that it would be pretty honorable to be named with these films.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I find the animated series pilot and Lois and Clark pilot to be a couple of the best modern interpretations since Donner.

 

[The Endless]

The Golden Scroll is one of the primer awards for science fiction and horror genre. Films like "The Hunger Games", Marvel's "Avengers", and "The Hobbit" have been nominated or won in the past. I would think that it would be pretty honorable to be named with these films.

The fact that Blade Trinity was nominated indicates either it was a really poor year for sci-fi and horror and/or the Saturn Awards are about as credible as the MTV movie awards.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Yeah, I still like Goyer but I can't defend Blade: Trinity. Nothing about that movie is good.

 

[LaughingMage]

LMAO. Comparing Superman The Movie to The Godfather or Citizen Kane? I think some posters here overrate the movie a little bit

Not one bit. The Donner movie is considered part of teaching canon just as much as those other films are when it comes to film studies.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I need to see evidence of this. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I've never heard of anyone using Superman '78 in a film class. Moreover, you seem to be implying that it's the norm in film schools all over the country.

 

[LaughingMage]

I need to see evidence of this. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I've never heard of anyone using Superman '78 in a film class. Moreover, you seem to be implying that it's the norm in film schools all over the country.

It was at least in mine, a couple of times actually. One course for example concerned itself with representations of heroic archetypes in movies and the another about visual expression of "Americana"

 

[Rowsdower!]

Interesting. Well, it's certainly a good film to use for that.