BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 2

[bluerayer]

You are good, you aren't a travesty

Why, thank you but i like Travesty.

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

I'm sorry to hear that....can't see Trav doing something like that for real, only sarcastically.

I do remember at some point Trav calling him a prick and I as well as ISEESPIDEY thought it seemed unnecessary. Dunno, oil and water I suppose.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Why, thank you but i like Travesty.

People tend to be more likeable when you haven't been called a prick by them It's all good, ignore feature. Thanks for those being objective on it though

 

[MrsKent26]

Yeah I tried to work it out and joke it off, but they started into heavy trolling so guess it can't be a shake hands and start over situation. Oh well.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. There's still lots of others for you to talk to. Sometimes ignoring people is better because some people feed on your responses (especially if you get angry) and it makes it worse. Focus on the users you get along with instead of the ones you don't. That's something I've learned from being here.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Thanks MrsKent for good advice Also the others who offered up objectivity, that's swell

 

[regwec]

Everyone likes Travesty. He's like a mischievous monkey.

 

[Lencho01]

It's one of those things that make you realize that MOS isn't as unique as some would like you to believe.

I remember I really didn't want to see the elaborate origin story again, and MOS kinda justified my feelings.

Yeah, like I'm not saying those aren't interesting ideas. They just don't work too well with Superman. I remember thinking the whole Superman being the first natural birth in centuries or whatever being an interesting/weird thing to see, but it didn't come off as too big a deal in the film. The whole Codex stuff just made it all worse for me.

And it doesn't help that they had to rush through it. I think there's a reason why Donner and co. started their film with Zod and his crew getting put in the PZ rather than show his attempt to overthrow the government.

And there's the whole taking lines from All-Star that got to me so excited, that I overlooked the context of their use in the comic compared to the film. When used in the film, it didn't work for me.

 

[MrsKent26]

Which to me just says how much they don't need to go over the origin again. And if they do, keep it short and sweet. Again, after All-Star and Birthright, I'm surprised they didn't go with the standard desperate scientists pulling a Hail Mary to save their son.

I also don't like all this destiny nonsense/Clark being told what to do stuff they throw in there too.

It's one of those things that make you realize that MOS isn't as unique as some would like you to believe.

I remember I really didn't want to see the elaborate origin story again, and MOS kinda justified my feelings.

I wasn't opposed to seeing an origin story again, but I do think they tried to jazz it up too much in MOS. I was actually hoping for a more organic take with less destiny, no-Jesus parallels, or pompous parents that preach goodness like no real parent ever would. I would have preferred Clark's desire to come from something like the bus incident where he witnesses for himself what he can be. It's much better when he's motivated by internal influences. I think MOS did that to an extent, but that Jor-el and Codex stuff muddied the waters.

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

Agreed on the Codex stuff. I think Goyer trying to create new ideas presented a balancing act issue. What adds to the story and makes it fresh versus what just makes things a bit convoluted.

 

[bluerayer]

Everyone likes Travesty. He's like a mischievous monkey.

That's sort of what im trying to go for with my posts too. He's better though.

 

[MrsKent26]

That's sort of what im trying to go for with my posts too. He's better though.

Keep doing what you do, Blurayer. I like your posts as is.

 

[The Batman]

I do remember at some point Trav calling him a prick and I as well as ISEESPIDEY thought it seemed unnecessary. Dunno, oil and water I suppose.

I'm really surprised by this. Seems so out of character for Trav.

Yeah, like I'm not saying those aren't interesting ideas. They just don't work too well with Superman. I remember thinking the whole Superman being the first natural birth in centuries or whatever being an interesting/weird thing to see, but it didn't come off as too big a deal in the film. The whole Codex stuff just made it all worse for me.

And it doesn't help that they had to rush through it. I think there's a reason why Donner and co. started their film with Zod and his crew getting put in the PZ rather than show his attempt to overthrow the government.

And there's the whole taking lines from All-Star that got to me so excited, that I overlooked the context of their use in the comic compared to the film. When used in the film, it didn't work for me.

Agreed.

 

[bluerayer]

Keep doing what you do, Blurayer. I like your posts as is.

Thank you MrsKent, that warms the 'ol ticker! I'll keep trying.

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

Travesty is like the Joker from TDK

I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught one. I just DO things. I'm a wrench in the gears.

 

[bluerayer]

Travesty is like the Joker from TDK

 

[Rowsdower!]

Agreed on the Codex stuff. I think Goyer trying to create new ideas presented a balancing act issue. What adds to the story and makes it fresh versus what just makes things a bit convoluted.

Yeah, I think the codex stuff was okay but in the end, it probably could have been left out and not really lost anything. You could have just had Zod decide Earth was the most suitable place to terraform and had him do that without needing the codex.

Still though, I don't find the codex or world engine any worse or more convoluted than any other "all powerful" devices found in these movies (the Tesseract, the Aether, etc.). Like I've said before, it's all just the Continuum Transfunctioner in the end. t:

 

[MrsKent26]

Agreed on the Codex stuff. I think Goyer trying to create new ideas presented a balancing act issue. What adds to the story and makes it fresh versus what just makes things a bit convoluted.

My issue with the Codex stuff was that it took the focus of Clark's more adult formative stages. The origin is supposed to be about an alien refugee that is selfless and good enough to realize that he has a gift to offer the world, as opposed to cool sci-fi stuff. As I said above, this wasn't totally absent in MOS, but it was diluted a bit. There was just a bit too much focus on how Krypton's remnants affected Clark when there should have been more focus on how Earth's people affected him. I would have preferred him to make the decision to be superman before Zod arrived.

I did enjoy seeing him performing rescues and having a desire to help before putting on the suit though. He was a hero before he ever donned it and spoke to Jor-el, but going that extra mile and showing him coming up with the idea of superman before Zod would have been ideal. This way, the idea of superman is born out of love for humanity and a desire to do good, rather than out of necessity. In MOS, superman had been a hero for years, but he wasn't superman until Zod happened.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

They should have ditched the codex and world engine. Zod coming to earth to find the son of Jor-el and rule over it was plenty.

 

[Lencho01]

I wasn't opposed to seeing an origin story again, but I do think they tried to jazz it up too much in MOS. I was actually hoping for a more organic take with less destiny, no-Jesus parallels, or pompous parents that preach goodness like no real parent ever would. I would have preferred Clark's desire to come from something like the bus incident where he witnesses for himself what he can be. It's much better when he's motivated by internal influences. I think MOS did that to an extent, but that Jor-el and Codex stuff muddied the waters.

I guess it was to be expected once the marketing showed they were going to have Jor-El be way too much in Clark's life like the Donner and Smallville versions.

It's very straight forward as to why Clark would want to be Superman. He was blessed with this powers and just simply wants to help out due to the influence of the Kents. There's nothing pompous about it. Just straight-up simple parenting on what's right and what's wrong.

If I remember what I've read correctly, in one of the Superman novels (maybe Miracle Monday), there was a scene where Pa and Ma think if Clark would turn out alright. Then, they showed a scene of Superboy standing outside just looking around and deciding that he'd always try his best to help out and would never take another person's life.

So, like others have said, they made it like he did out of spite towards Pa Kent and there is of course the joke of him fulfilling both of his fathers' wishes...

[YT]Sge5sUNJkiY[/YT]

I don't fully understand the Jesus parallels some like to put into Superman, especially when he was created by two Jewish kids. Always seemed strange to me, especially when Superman isn't perfect anyway.

 

[Rowsdower!]

My issue with the Codex stuff was that it took the focus of Clark's more adult formative stages. The origin is supposed to be about an alien refugee that is selfless and good enough to realize that he has a gift to offer the world, as opposed to cool sci-fi stuff. As I said above, this wasn't totally absent in MOS, but it was diluted a bit. There was just a bit too much focus on how Krypton's remnants affected Clark when there should have been more focus on how Earth's people affected him. I would have preferred him to make the decision to be superman before Zod arrived.

I did enjoy seeing him performing rescues and having a desire to help before putting on the suit though. He was a hero before he ever donned it and spoke to Jor-el, but going that extra mile and showing him coming up with the idea of superman before Zod would have been ideal. This way, the idea of superman is born out of love for humanity and a desire to do good, rather than out of necessity. In MOS, superman had been a hero for years, but he wasn't superman until Zod happened.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I do think that was a misstep, not having him actually become Superman until Zod showed up. I think they could have just had a few quick scenes of him saving people in costume after he leaves the fortress and the film wouldn't have lost anything. In fact, I think it would have gained a lot to have it.

 

[MrsKent26]

I liked the WE for the most part. It upped the stakes and allowed for that moving scene of superman rising up against it as Jenny/Perry prepared to die together.

That tentacle fight was unnecessary though.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

^ Agreed.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I think Zod is what forced him out as a superhero. There was no large enough threat for him to take such a stance before this, as well as finding out his Kryptonian heritage and knowing Zod is there in part because Jor-el sent Kal as a child.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I think the World Engine was fine, I just thought the ship and the WE should have been one big device. Having Superman battle with it in Metropolis, where all the destruction was happening, would have looked better than watching him fight it half a world away while the city is being devastated.

 

[MrsKent26]

I guess it was to be expected once the marketing showed they were going to have Jor-El be way too much in Clark's life like the Donner and Smallville versions.

It's very straight forward as to why Clark would want to be Superman. He was blessed with this powers and just simply wants to help out due to the influence of the Kents. There's nothing pompous about it. Just straight-up simple parenting on what's right and what's wrong.

If I remember what I've read correctly, in one of the Superman novels (maybe Miracle Monday), there was a scene where Pa and Ma think if Clark would turn out alright. Then, they showed a scene of Superboy standing outside just looking around and deciding that he'd always try his best to help out and would never take another person's life.

So, like others have said, they made it like he did out of spite towards Pa Kent and there is of course the joke of him fulfilling both of his fathers' wishes...

[YT]Sge5sUNJkiY[/YT]

I don't fully understand the Jesus parallels some like to put into Superman, especially when he was created by two Jewish kids. Always seemed strange to me, especially when Superman isn't perfect anyway.

I'm not opposed to Clark learning from the Kents, but I'm really not fond of them coming across as perfect paragons of goodness. Sometimes they way they talk (Smallville) doesn't sound like anything humans would say. It's just too grandiose and self-important. I'm all for them instilling values, but please no long-winded speeches about destiny. That's what I mean by "pompous." Actually, what I was hoping for with MOS, was a sort of Tree of Life origin for Clark that let the Kents be flawed people that worried about doing right by Clark, but still allowed them to be catalysts for his good ol' country boy mindset. MOS did try to do this and succeeded in some ways, but it was just too sparse. The characterization gave way to the sci-fi stuff and an over-abundance of Jor-el. I would have preferred that there was no Jor-el hologram to prattle on about Krypton.

As for the Jesus stuff...I have never understood what it adds to the movie. So he's like Jesus...so what? Perhaps it's just there to hammer in the idea of "This is important **** here!" But I'd argue that's not needed because most people know the idea of someone endeavoring to become Superman is important enough.