BvS Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. - Part 2

[Hurm...]

I just *sigh* my enthusiasm has just been extinguished for this movie. I was excited as all hell last year when that Batman and Superman logo arose at CC, but it's turned into something else entirely it seems. It just seems Snyder is trying to constantly adjust to all these changes. And yes, even if Terrio is rewriting, I don't think that will do much in the end. Couple that with MOS not being all that, I just don't have much faith in this. If anything, this could be the next ASM2. Just a hodge podge of a film trying to reconcile all the various elements being thrown into it to make more money.

Can anyone here change my mind? What do I have to look forward to this movie besides Affleck as Batman and Cavill? Why should I believe that this is going to be a great movie?

Well said. It just sounds like there is TOO MUCH being jammed into this thing.

 

[matt47]

While there is a lot rumoured going into this movie I don't think we can say whether it's too much just yet, perhaps it will be fair when he know the actual plot. Remember, the only things we know for sure are; Batman and Superman will be at odds but it's not a full VS movie, Wonder Woman and Cyborg are in the movie, we don't know how much time they will have and that they will be doing and Lex Luthor will be in the movie. That's pretty much it I think.

 

[storyteller]

To me it's more like the internet is overreacting. They hear Aquaman and they think he's in half the film. They hear Cyborg and they thing he's a main character. People are jumping at crumbs thinking this is the real meal. They are just crumbs. I don't know if Snyder is having issue adjusting. It seems more like people don't understand how production works.

It's like Snyder is a painter and everyone is gawking at how be went out to buy some red paint.

 

[Boy Scout]

To me it's more like the internet is overreacting.

Well...yeah.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I share some of your concerns with Snyder, but we still don't know how anything will play out. Until we get some concrete ideas about what the story is, I'll remain cautiously optimistic. For me, that's the best way to approach it.

I know there's nothing we know about the story, but that doesn't mean that the choices being made thus far can't be criticized or questioned or worried about. Execution is king, but in these hands and going on past evidence, I don't have much faith.

That being said, when those first pictures are released, I'm probably going to be excited as anybody. And I'm going to see the movie. So for all my worries, they already have me.

However, despite them probably making immense profit opening weekend, its legs are another question going back to the overall quality of the movie. The hype is already a given, but will the film hold up? I don't think so. I want to be proven wrong though. And I will go in with an open mind like I always do.

This is just too much too soon where it looks like WB is just playing catch up now and just simply riding the coattails. WB's problem is that they think they can be successful now because of what Marvel did. What people are forgetting is that Marvel succeeded because it took risks and is at the end of the day, a studio that only makes comic book movies. If it didn't work for Sony, and in WB's case, and given their track record, is very possible. It's why the bad outweighs the good. WB is just too late to the game.

Not sure if I can change your mind, but I do share some concerns.

I try to be optimistic and succeed most of the time, but I do worry that this film will be a hodge podge of cameos to herald JL, attempts to address plot points from MOS, and select scenes form comics like TDKR that Snyder finds awesome. I worry it will resemble MOS and Rises in the sense that's it's ambitious, but a little scattered. The idea that Terrio's involvement is limited and won't end up improving the script that much (I found the script was MOS's major flaw) is a concern as well.

To counteract that, I try to remember that we're still in the glory days when we can imagine that all of the above won't become truth. Perhaps Terrio's involvement in the script was extensive and we have something worthy of these characters. Maybe the plot and attention to characters will work in tandem like in DOFP. If such things haven't been proven false, they're still a possibility.

The difference between DOFP is that those were all characters within the framework of its own franchise and X-Men has and always will be, team orientated. This is a different animal entirely. These are three iconic superheroes among other big superheroes sharing one movie. Before Justice League. I can't tell what the **** this is anymore. Apparently, the push in date was to make the script fit more in line with Justice League. And here, (optimistic me) thought it was because to make the script itself better in quality. Now that doesn't mean they were trying to do that too. You can have a good writer like Terrio, but that doesn't mean it's going to be saved or good. In the industry, many writers, good or bad are phased through these kind of movies, and when the final product comes out, you wouldn't know who wrote what. I'll use Spider-Man 4. There were some great writers constantly rewriting that thing, but if the rumors were true, they still weren't able to save what it was turning out to be, much less turn out a suitable shooting script.

I still have to remind myself that this is a Superman film.

 

[-Arya-]

I know there's nothing we know about the story, but that doesn't mean that the choices being made thus far can't be criticized or questioned or worried about. Execution is king, but in these hands and going on past evidence, I don't have much faith.

That being said, when those first pictures are released, I'm probably going to be excited as anybody. And I'm going to see the movie. So for all my worries, they already have me.

However, despite them probably making immense profit opening weekend, its legs are another question going back to the overall quality of the movie. The hype is already a given, but will the film hold up? I don't think so. I want to be proven wrong though. And I will go in with an open mind like I always do.

This is just too much too soon where it looks like WB is just playing catch up now and just simply riding the coattails. WB's problem is that they think they can be successful now because of what Marvel did. What people are forgetting is that Marvel succeeded because it took risks and is at the end of the day, a studio that only makes comic book movies. If it didn't work for Sony, and in WB's case, and given their track record, is very possible. It's why the bad outweighs the good. WB is just too late to the game.

Sure, I'm not suggesting we should just accept everything we have seen thus far. Skepticism should be encouraged, but within reason. For example all these character additions could be perceived as a detriment; taking all the attention away from Bats and Supes, muddling the story and screwing up everything. Imo, this is being needlessly pessimistic. For all we know, Cyborg, WW, and Aquaman will only appear in the final minutes of the film, or they could be introduced throughout the movie in a way that feels natural. Or not. Bottom line. We don't know.

 

[Rowsdower!]

To me it's more like the internet is overreacting. They hear Aquaman and they think he's in half the film. They hear Cyborg and they thing he's a main character. People are jumping at crumbs thinking this is the real meal. They are just crumbs. I don't know if Snyder is having issue adjusting. It seems more like people don't understand how production works.

It's like Snyder is a painter and everyone is gawking at how be went out to buy some red paint.

Yeah. I was trying to explain this to a friend of mine last night. It may very well all be true and the movie could turn out to be a convoluted mess. And if you hated Man of Steel, then I would guess you were assuming the worst from the get-go. But people should probably take a step back and just remember that as of right now, we know next to nothing about the plot, other than Superman and Batman will face off at some point, and that Lex Luthor and Wonder Woman factor in somewhere. I don't even believe there has been any confirmation that Cyborg or Aquaman will appear, and if they do, it's entirely possible they might only be in it for five minutes in their civilian garb.

Moreover, even if they DO have significant scenes, it's possible they could be left on the cutting room floor and saved for Justice League. As we saw with X-Men: DOFP, sometimes even major characters (Rogue) barely make the final cut.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Sure, I'm not suggesting we should just accept everything we have seen thus far. Skepticism should be encouraged, but within reason. For example all these character additions could be perceived as a detriment; taking all the attention away from Bats and Supes, muddling the story and screwing up everything. Imo, this is being needlessly pessimistic. For all we know, Cyborg, WW, and Aquaman will only appear in the final minutes of the film, or they could be introduced throughout the movie in a way that feels natural. Or not. Bottom line. We don't know.

Then let's just say they are minimal roles regulated to the end of the film, there is a problem with that too. They feel more forced and comes across more as baiting for what's to come. Either way, neither options read as positive. See what I'm getting at? I'm not making the case where I know that this is going to be a bad film. It could be a good film. I've been trying so hard to look to see the light, but in this case, there isn't much. The movie is still two years away, but with the information at hand right now and WB, among other aspects, optimism is much lower. Needless pessimism is the last thing I would focus on. All of my thoughts are reasonable at this point. Mere pragmatism is the best way to approach this, yet has gotten me to the point of skewed towards pessimism. And with each passing piece of news, will constantly factor in and be weighed against my views now. Those views could very well shift to more optimistic for all I know.

ASM2 was a much needed wake up call. Meaning everything that is going on in the superhero world, despite us getting all of properties and content we've always wanted to see, may not amount to good films, especially at the hands of studios who don't really know how to go about making them.

If anyone has known me as long as they have here, I always look on the brighter side of things and try to find things to focus on in a positive way. Why do you think I don't come here often anymore? I just don't care as much. I'm not going to the other threads because all I really have to say is more of the same stuff and that takes the fun out of what's going on there. If people are optimistic, that's fine. But from now on, in this new post Avengers age of comic book films, if it isn't Marvel Studios (who are as just a liable to come under scrutiny, but there aren't many reasons to as opposed in this case) new considerations are being made.

 

[dnno1]

Then let's just say they are minimal roles regulated to the end of the film, there is a problem with that too. They feel more forced and comes across more as baiting for what's to come. Either way, neither options read as positive. See what I'm getting at? I'm not making the case where I know that this is going to be a bad film. It could be a good film. I've been trying so hard to look to see the light, but in this case, there isn't much. The movie is still two years away, but with the information at hand right now and WB, among other aspects, optimism is much lower. Needless pessimism is the last thing I would focus on. All of my thoughts are reasonable at this point. Mere pragmatism is the best way to approach this, yet has gotten me to the point of skewed towards pessimism. And with each passing piece of news, will constantly factor in and be weighed against my views now. Those views could very well shift to more optimistic for all I know.

ASM2 was a much needed wake up call. Meaning everything that is going on in the superhero world, despite us getting all of properties and content we've always wanted to see, may not amount to good films, especially at the hands of studios who don't really know how to go about making them.

If anyone has known me as long as they have here, I always look on the brighter side of things and try to find things to focus on in a positive way. Why do you think I don't come here often anymore? I just don't care as much. I'm not going to the other threads because all I really have to say is more of the same stuff and that takes the fun out of what's going on there. If people are optimistic, that's fine. But from now on, in this new post Avengers age of comic book films, if it isn't Marvel Studios (who are as just a liable to come under scrutiny, but there aren't many reasons to as opposed in this case) new considerations are being made.

Someone (the storyteller) wanted these characters to be in the movie so, yes it is "forced" at least by him/her, but no more than any other producer/writer wanting Thor's hammer to make a cameo appearance in Iron Man 2 or Arnold Swartenegger and his character, Trench in "The Expendables 2". Because someone wanted them in there they are there. There is nothing wrong with that and there is also nothing wrong with baiting since they want you to be interested in the other characters they have to offer (Marvel's after-credits scenes are baiting as well and nobody complains about that). We must remember that first an foremost, Warner Brothers (and Disney/Marvel) are businesses and they are trying to sell you a service/product. It is up to you to either be interested and patronize or not.

 

[The Endless]

No one complains about after credits scenes because they aren't actually part of the movie.

 

[dnno1]

No one complains about after credits scenes because they aren't actually part of the movie.

It might be a prologue to the story, but it is part of the movie since that is what is on the film tape/digital master sent to theaters. No one complains about after credits scenes because they are excited to see them, not because they aren't are or are not actually part of a movie. Face it, bub, saying that the appearance of characters from other franchises in another film being forced is a weak argument. Probably the ultimate display of that was "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" (that was definitely forced) and it turned out to be a great movie.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Someone (the storyteller) wanted these characters to be in the movie so, yes it is "forced" at least by him/her, but no more than any other producer/writer wanting Thor's hammer to make a cameo appearance in Iron Man 2 or Arnold Swartenegger and his character, Trench in "The Expendables 2". Because someone wanted them in there they are there. There is nothing wrong with that and there is also nothing wrong with baiting since they want you to be interested in the other characters they have to offer (Marvel's after-credits scenes are baiting as well and nobody complains about that). We must remember that first an foremost, Warner Brothers (and Disney/Marvel) are businesses and they are trying to sell you a service/product. It is up to you to either be interested and patronize or not.

This was the point I was making earlier. The thing is, there actually are fundamental differences between Marvel and WB. Marvel Studios, as a studio that only made comic book films with a sole purpose and business plan, at the very offset put those things there for a reason. These were all risks that they knew and took anyway. And it paid off. Anyone else trying to really do it is just copying and purely making for the money. I can give somewhat of a pass to Fox because DOFP turned out to be a great movie, and despite their plans like WB, were just focused on making a great X-Men movie. Marvel Studios is very much interested in making money, but they already have the advantage in this playing field because of the mandate of making their films. Those risks were always included, and to this day, they're still taking them. And they have quality to show for it. And let's face it, Marvel beat them to the punch and now they're just playing catch up. Their case is much stronger than WB right now. So if I'm going to put faith in news before a movie, I'm more inclined to do it with Marvel than WB, because there is evidence.

This is all sloppy to me and in the long run, won't cut it for their future plans. If they think they can just all of a sudden announce a full schedule of their comic book films and think they're going to make money "Because it works for Marvel" isn't that solid of a business plan. These are principles that do not apply to both studios.

And I haven't even mentioned that WB doesn't have the resources/talent that Marvel has to make it successfully happen either. They have more going against them than for them at this point.

 

[The Endless]

The thing is Marvels cinematic universe only worked because they have a guy like Feige. He's basically an editor, if you wanna talk comic book terms, who makes sure continuity works and that all the individual components match up in a bigger story.

DC need a guy like that. And some DC fans who like to criticize Marvel and Kevin Feige need to realise that the DC Cinematic Universe simply will not work without a guy like him in place who is making sure all the directors and writers of the individual films can see the bigger picture.

I believe Geoff Johns was gonna be that guy but then Green Lantern happened. Seems now Zach Snyder is that guy. But Zach Snyder ain't a Kevin Feige.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I'm not sure that Snyder's role in all of this is to be the "Fiege" and I don't know that he should be. He's a director and even if he wants to do DC films beyond JL, I'm sure he still has other projects that he also wants to work on.

I think what people need to accept is that Marvel is a studio now and DC is not. Warner Brothers has multiple other projects at any given time and unlike Disney, they aren't going to create an entirely new subsidiary that will be fairly independent and work on only superhero projects. I wish they WOULD do that, but I think people who are hoping for it are going to be hoping for a long time. It's a different business model. But that doesn't mean it has to be a bad thing. They can still put out high quality projects. It just won't be the same as Marvel.

 

[hafizbat]

Face it, bub, saying that the appearance of characters from other franchises in another film being forced is a weak argument.

Funny you should mention weak arguments...

Someone (the storyteller) wanted these characters to be in the movie so, yes it is "forced" at least by him/her, but no more than any other producer/writer wanting Thor's hammer to make a cameo appearance in Iron Man 2 or Arnold Swartenegger and his character, Trench in "The Expendables 2". Because someone wanted them in there they are there.

 

[The Endless]

Oh no doubt.

But it just makes me laugh when i see people say "WB/DC lets the director do whatever he wants and Marvel dictate and interfere bla bla bla".

Well... if you want a fully functioning DC Cinematic Universe that shares a continuity there will HAVE to be someone "interfering" and making sure the solo stories are in sync with the bigger narrative. They won't, they can't just give all the directors free-reign, because there won't be a continuity and it will be quite difficult to merge these characters into cross over films like Justice League.

I want WB/DC to do something different to Marvel, in terms of the tone and style of their movies. But people are kidding themselves if they think there won't be a Kevin Feige like figure making sure everyone is pulling in the same direction. And whether people like him or not, there is no denying Fiege is an incredibly smart guy and one of the best producers around. He's somehow managed to make these films universally appealing whilst embracing everything a geek would want to see from these characters. (apart from Thor, to some extent TBH).

I'm not 100% confident Snyder can be WB/DC's Feige.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Oh no doubt.

But it just makes me laugh when i see people say "WB/DC lets the director do whatever he wants and Marvel dictate and interfere bla bla bla".

Well... if you want a fully functioning DC Cinematic Universe that shares a continuity there will HAVE to be someone "interfering" and making sure the solo stories are in sync with the bigger narrative. They won't, they can't just give all the directors free-reign, because there won't be a continuity and it will be quite difficult to merge these characters into cross over films like Justice League.

I want WB/DC to do something different to Marvel, in terms of the tone and style of their movies. But people are kidding themselves if they think there won't be a Kevin Feige like figure making sure everyone is pulling in the same direction.

Oh yes, there absolutely needs to be continuity. As for who is controlling all that, I'm not quite sure. It might be more of a brain trust type of approach with Snyder, Goyer, Johns, etc. (waits for someone to post the point-and-laugh smilie by referring to those guys as a brain trust) as opposed to one central guy calling the shots. But there definitely needs to be some consistency throughout the projects. To be fair though, we don't know that we WON'T get that yet, since this new universe only consists of one movie so far.

 

[Dr. Thanos]

There has to be Kevin Feige type figure, for sure, the question is who will do that. Goyer? At first it seemed likely, but him being booted off the executive producer role gave me some doubts. It might very well be Geoff Johns, despite the Green Lantern failure, and at the moment he seems like the most qualified executive who also has an understanding of the world and characters.

I don't believe it will be Snyder. He doesn't strike me as the editor/manager type.

 

[Zionite1]

Not Geoff Johns.The man is overrated.Hes done impressive work with Aquaman,Flash and debatably GL but screws the Trinity over.

Geoff johns is responsible for JLwar.For that Crime alone I dont think he deserves the DCverse throne

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

Not Geoff Johns.The man is overrated.Hes done impressive work with Aquaman,Flash and debatably GL but screws the Trinity over.

Geoff johns is responsible for JLwar.For that Crime alone I dont think he deserves the DCverse throne

This.

 

[regwec]

He would likely be the shoe-in, though. The dream would be Paul Dini, but I couldn't imagine that happening.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Don't let Johns anywhere near the DC film universe.

 

[BestGirl]

Wait til that first trailer hits...

I don't think I'll be too excited even after the trailer. If there's one thing I've learned, Snyder is the king of cutting trailers but his movies always fall short of their promise.

 

[dnno1]

This was the point I was making earlier. The thing is, there actually are fundamental differences between Marvel and WB. Marvel Studios, as a studio that only made comic book films with a sole purpose and business plan, at the very offset put those things there for a reason. These were all risks that they knew and took anyway. And it paid off. Anyone else trying to really do it is just copying and purely making for the money. I can give somewhat of a pass to Fox because DOFP turned out to be a great movie, and despite their plans like WB, were just focused on making a great X-Men movie. Marvel Studios is very much interested in making money, but they already have the advantage in this playing field because of the mandate of making their films. Those risks were always included, and to this day, they're still taking them. And they have quality to show for it. And let's face it, Marvel beat them to the punch and now they're just playing catch up. Their case is much stronger than WB right now. So if I'm going to put faith in news before a movie, I'm more inclined to do it with Marvel than WB, because there is evidence.

This is all sloppy to me and in the long run, won't cut it for their future plans. If they think they can just all of a sudden announce a full schedule of their comic book films and think they're going to make money "Because it works for Marvel" isn't that solid of a business plan. These are principles that do not apply to both studios.

And I haven't even mentioned that WB doesn't have the resources/talent that Marvel has to make it successfully happen either. They have more going against them than for them at this point.

Funny you should mention weak arguments...

My point was that there is nothing wrong with it because that is part of the story that the writer wants to tell. Yes, saying that it it forced is a weak argument for that reason (the storyteller is the driving force here). I am sorry that you didn't understand that. No as far as copying, goes it seems to be a habit of both Marvel and DC through the years (Darkseid/Thanos, New Gods/Eternals, Green Lantern/Nova, Batman/Moon Night, et. al.), so why should we be surprised about that if they did copy or not?

 

[Nemeres]

There has to be Kevin Feige type figure, for sure, the question is who will do that. Goyer? At first it seemed likely, but him being booted off the executive producer role gave me some doubts. It might very well be Geoff Johns, despite the Green Lantern failure, and at the moment he seems like the most qualified executive who also has an understanding of the world and characters.

I don't believe it will be Snyder. He doesn't strike me as the editor/manager type.

I always had the impression he must have been the biggest wallflower during the GL production. He must have definitely known better, he just probably lacked authority.