Endgame Is Cap a Homewrecker? (poll)

[pr0xyt0xin]

The title is a red herring. Sorry, just wanted to grab your attention. The real question is related though, and can be found in the poll.

The way I see it there are (way more than two, but we are only gonna focus on the most obvious) two potential scenarios. And before you flame me, there is precedent for both as the directors agree with one scenario and the writers agree with the other. While I may be in the minority believing in Option 2, I would venture to guess I'm not totally alone.


Option #1:
Option one is that Cap went back in time to be with Peggy prior to ever meeting her "other husband" and started a branched timeline where they potentially have two kids of their own, or have no kids at all. But one thing is for sure they were both happy (judging by old steve's face). And he travels back to the original timeline to give Sam the shield.

This option is supported by the Russo bros.

The directors:
"If you went back to that timeline, between the point where Steve went into the ice [in Captain America: The FirstAvenger] yet before Peggy met her husband, Peggy was available," Anthony Russo said.

...some fans have found it creepy that Steve Rogers essentially made Peggy's future relationship with her husband, as well as their two children, disappear. But as the brothers both assured the audience, "They exist in a different timeline."


Option #2:
The way I see it, option two is that Cap is a man who exists outside of time. That his promise to Peggy transcends the rules of spacetime, and that no matter what, his determination would have got him back to that Stork Club at 8pm on the dot for that dance in the original MCU timeline. Living to a ripe old age (avoiding young cap for a decade or so) and arriving to grant the shield to Sam.

There may also be some other time travel loophole I'm not seeing, but Markus and McFeely seem to agree the children and husband presented in TWS were Cap's.

The writers:
“It was always our intention that he was the father of those two children. But again, there are time travel loopholes for that,” said McFeely.

Added Markus: “It does introduce the idea that there are two children who have somewhat super soldier DNA.”



So really the question is just, "Which of these scenarios do you prefer?"

 

[Samuron]

He created a new timeline branch, grew old with Peggy, and then restored the proper timeline.

 

[Mandon Knight]

No, he isn't. He had a life with someone he'd already made a connection with and no other party was involved, just the two of them as singleton's coming together to share love that already been found, secured and appreciated, this was the culmination of that bond.

 

[TheGuy]

He lived his future after Thanos with Peggy in an alternate universe whose events during the Infinity Saga have yet to happen. So he changed someone's history but his past in his true universe is left unchanged. Yes. He is a homewrecker.

 

[Mandon Knight]

#whatthefdoiknow

 

[Elayis]

Peggy's husband was always Steve. If that's not the way it happened, then Cap effectively erased Peggy's children and marriage from existence. That's about as despicable a thing as I can imagine.

 

[Abudefduf]

Dude created a whole new universe, with all its suffering and misery, just to get his own little happy ending at the expense of a Peggy Carter that technically isn't even "his" Peggy Carter.

He's much worse than a homewrecker.

 

[MrWayne]

This did not need its own thread.... Its not that serious damn lol

 

[metaphysician]

Also, people here seem to be assuming that the creation of a new timeline somehow erases the old. . .

 

[NHawk19]

It's left ambiguous intentionally. They have a lot to play with, and they didn't contradict anything.

Honestly the best and most impressive part of the whole thing is how no matter which out come they go with, they're both possible and plausible if handled properly. Steve stays in the main timeline, they haven't done anything that really makes that implausible. Steve leaves the main timeline and travels back, Tony's quantum GPS also makes that completely possible.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

This did not need its own thread.... Its not that serious damn lol

And you did not need to comment on it.

Let me know what thread on SHH is "that serious"

 

[Xeno]

According to the rules of time travel that were clearly explained in Endgame, when Steve went back to 1948* to be with Peggy his arrival there created an alternate timeline that branched off from the main 616 MCU. In that new, alternate universe, Steve was always Peggy's husband and her kids were fathered by him.

(Markus & McFeely said in an interview that Steve went back to the end of Agent Carter's second season and met Peggy at a time when she had fallen out with Agent Sousa, who may not even have been her eventual husband in the main universe. Steve & Peggy married soon after and the rest is alternate-universe history.)

Nothing whatsoever was changed about the life of Peggy Carter in the main universe by the creation of the new branch universe. Peggy's marriage to another man and her kids with him still exist because it is impossible to alter or erase events once they have happened. This was firmly established in Endgame and explained by The Ancient One, Bruce Banner and Tony Stark. So those kids and their spawn still exist in the MCU, not that anyone besides nitpicking fans gives two s**ts about them.

People who feel anger over Steve "selfishly" creating a whole universe just so he can be happy should be really angry that the Avengers created half a dozen or more new branch universes just to restore the people who were dusted in their universe in the snap. In each of those new universes left without their Infinity Stones, even for a short time, untold havoc could have occurred that affected billions or trillions of innocent lives. What effect did knocking Peter Quill unconscious on Morag just as Korath arrived looking for the Power Stone have in that universe, for instance? Even if we accept that Steve returned that stone to its exact place and time, Quill might not have recovered soon enough to keep it out of Korath's hands, which would lead to a cascade of dire events. And so on for all of the other universes the stones were stolen from. Perhaps the entire Marvel Cinematic Multiverse was changed drastically so that one lone universe could restore life to some of its inhabitants.

How utterly selfish of the Avengers of Universe 616.

Let's whine about that for a while, shall we?

 

[Abudefduf]

They were trying to save the universe, they weren't just being selfish.

Speaking of selfishness... the fact that, given the choice, Steve Rogers would rather live in a time where people like Sam Wilson were still oppressed rather than in a more "enlightened" era says a lot about him.

He truly is Captain America. (This is a joke about how much America sucks, btw).

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

They were trying to save the universe, they weren't just being selfish.

Speaking of selfishness... the fact that, given the choice, Steve Rogers would rather live in a time where people like Sam Wilson were still oppressed rather than in a more "enlightened" era says a lot about him.

He truly is Captain America. (This is a joke about how much America sucks, btw).

Steve is free now, armed with the knowledge of the future ( And with the prestige and popular support that comes with being Capt. America) to effect MASSIVE changes to that branch timeline. As such I am pretty sure one thing he will have a big influence on will be politics and society which will include things like civil rights and racial integration in the USA.

He is free to do as he pleases in terms of how he employs the knowledge he's acquired from his life up until he jumps to the past. This seems to continually be misunderstood by many around here.

 

[Zarex]

I prefer the first option - that Steve Rogers is indeed a man out of time, and going back to be with Peggy was merely restoring what always was and always will be.

Another option? He never married Peggy. Steve had his dance and kissed Margaret. But he gallantly stepped aside and let the love of his life fulfill her destiny. And avoid uncomfortable questions regarding their niece. Cap married some other lucky lady and led a full life.

I prefer either one of these options to the idea that multiple realities have been created due to the efforts of Steve and his fellow Avengers. Yeah, Loki got away with the space stone. Unless he returns to that spot at some point (a very real possibility) that's a new time line. But if we think of reality as an entity, and in the Marvel comic book universe it is, there's an incentive for Eternity to "plug the holes" and connect the loops rather than expend the massive amounts of energy required to manufacture new realities.

After Tony's snap, Thanos and his crew gets dusted back to 2014 with no memories of their travels, a resurrected 2014 Nebula and a freshly created Gamora. The Hydra crew come to the belief that they were fooled by Loki. The only branch created is Loki's, and that may be fixed as well.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Let me know what thread on SHH is "that serious"

One would hope the Depression and Suicide thread is taken seriously, but with some humour to help those who require support, thrown in, to aid the pain.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I prefer the first option - that Steve Rogers is indeed a man out of time, and going back to be with Peggy was merely restoring what always was and always will be.

Another option? He never married Peggy. Steve had his dance and kissed Margaret. But he gallantly stepped aside and let the love of his life fulfill her destiny. And avoid uncomfortable questions regarding their niece. Cap married some other lucky lady and led a full life.

I prefer either one of these options to the idea that multiple realities have been created due to the efforts of Steve and his fellow Avengers. Yeah, Loki got away with the space stone. Unless he returns to that spot at some point (a very real possibility) that's a new time line. But if we think of reality as an entity, and in the Marvel comic book universe it is, there's an incentive for Eternity to "plug the holes" rather than expend the massive amounts of energy required to manufacture new realities.

After Tony's snap, Thanos and his crew gets dusted back to 2014 with no memories of their travels, a resurrected 2014 Nebula and a freshly created Gamora. The Hydra crew come to the belief that they were fooled by Loki. The only branch created is Loki's, and that may be fixed as well.

Setting aside any questions of the "true" nature of existence whether in our real world or in the MCU...


I don't know... I feel there's a lot of leaps in that head canon. One might say the same about the branching timeline crowd but I feel that's based on how a character like Steve has consistently been portrayed. Cap seeing a way that not only could he go back and be with Peggy, but do so without affecting the lives of the people of the time and place he had come from? So doing no harm to Tony Stark's family because they and everyone he knew would still "exist"? And secure in that idea, be free to employ what he knows about the future he experienced to head of threats and change the world for the better because that's who he's always been ("When I see a situation go south, I can't just ignore it...") ?

That feels more like Cap than he went back in time and for the greater good of NOT altering things was able to be disciplined enough that he did absolutely nothing in the face of all the terrible outcomes of history both for himself (Knowing Bucky was out there forced into slavery at the hands of Hydra and knowing that Hydra was inside of SHIELD and all killings they used to cover up their existence and influence) but the world and America in particular.


I mean... Steve would have to stay still knowing a JFK, RFK and MLK would be killed. He'd have to stay silent when the Vietnam War began knowing it's ultimate futility and all the lives of his fellow soldiers that would be lost. He'd have to say nothing when Nixon ascends to power and drags the Republic through the Watergate scandal. Steve Rogers, Captain America would, in this scenario, after having to not lift a finger having lived through all that would then on the morning of September the 11th, 2001 continue to just let history run its course... I just can't see that. Plus... Jesus Christ that's not a happy ending for Steve in the least. Sure he gets to be with his love but what sort of marriage are we talking about when Steve has to be TORTURED with the knowledge of what is to come and then NOT do anything about it? Wanna talk about a recipe for a bitter and cantankerous partner in a marriage well... I can't think of a better way to produce one than to put a man like Steve in that kind of situation.

The branching idea doesn't have as many leaps in my view and it allows Steve to be who he is, secure that his happiness doesn't actually cost the people or world he comes from in the least.

 

[Zarex]

My thinking is Steve HAD changed. As shown in the film, by 2023 he was no longer the painfully earnest "I can do this all day!" guy. He was also no longer the "When I see a situation pointed south, I just can't ignore it" guy. He was a fella sick of punching who wanted to get busy living. Citizen Steve.

Why didn't Somewhat Selfish Citizen Steve get involved in the upcoming horrific events of which he had full knowledge? Time Branches! There was no way of knowing if becoming involved in Vietnam, Civil Rights and/or Hydra would have led to even more horrifying outcomes. So he was forced to stay on the sidelines. Citizen Steve was a good dad, got involved in the PTA, led a recycling drive and made a casserole for Ginny down the block when her husband passed. He was a good man who led a good life. And left all the punching to the OTHER Captain America.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

My thinking is Steve HAD changed. As shown in the film, by 2023 he was no longer the painfully earnest "I can do this all day!" guy. He was also no longer the "When I see a situation pointed south, I just can't ignore it" guy. He was a fella sick of punching who wanted to get busy living. Citizen Steve.

Why didn't Somewhat Selfish Citizen Steve get involved in the upcoming horrific events of which he had full knowledge? Time Branches! There was no way of knowing if becoming involved in Vietnam, Civil Rights and/or Hydra would have led to even more horrifying outcomes. So he was forced to stay on the sidelines. Citizen Steve was a good dad, got involved in the PTA, led a recycling drive and made a casserole for Ginny down the block when her husband passed. He was a good man who led a good life. And left all the punching to the OTHER Captain America.

That describes the opposite of the man that went toe to toe with a mad alien bent on becoming the dark god of a new creation. That's not the man that said to Natasha "Other people move on... But not us."

I think unintended consequences of actions would indeed be a lesson Steve would either have to painfully learn or one which he had already have factored into his choice to live in an alternate timeline. I find that easier to swallow than Cap shrugging his shoulders on Sept. 11th and going "What are ya gonna do? You don't punch people any more Steve." It is rather incongruous that the man that spearheaded a high stakes mission to travel through time to restore half the universe's lives after it seemed most everyone else in the world had given up hope that anything could be done about it (including genius Tony Stark when he first learns about the idea) and then fought off the most powerful non-cosmic entity super villain in the MCU to date to make sure that all that he had done wasn't for naught AND THEN ON TOP OF ALL THAT, leads the combined forces of Earth's mightiest heroes in a pitched battle against this would be dark god's army of minions... That man? That man in no way had grown out of his "When I see things go south I can't sit by and watch" characterization. What we see in AEG isn't him getting beyond that, he's just gotten smarter about how he goes about it, thus that "Hail Hydra" moment and using psychological tactics to gain the upper hand on his past self.


The man that after being beaten like a government mule, seeing his indestructible shield ripped to pieces and a alien army come at him hard and fast who straps what's left of his shield down to his fractured arm and marches off to meet certain death head on...

No, I can't find any indication that guy has evolved into some kind of "Welp, things are gonna be the way they are. I just have to get used to not being able to change things" type of attitude. One day? Yeah. Maybe. But not the guy we see through the run time of AEG.

 

[Zarex]

You make a good point that "Badly injured guy tightening the strap on his heavily damaged shield to single-handedly face off against a space god and his massive army of evil aliens" didn't change THAT much. But do I think that the same guy, after leading the good guys into battle, may have just been done? I think it's a real possibility that this was Cap's last hurrah, and afterwards he had nothing left. At least that's my head canon until a future writer and/or director tells me differently.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

You make a good point that "Badly injured guy tightening the strap on his heavily damaged shield to single-handedly face off against a space god and his massive army of evil aliens" didn't change THAT much. But do I think that the same guy, after leading the good guys into battle, may have just been done? I think it's a real possibility that this was Cap's last hurrah, and afterwards he had nothing left. At least that's my head canon until a future writer and/or director tells me differently.

Fair enough Mr.Z.

 

[Octavias]

I choose option x... the one where he got Nat back when he returned the soul gem and married her lol... nothing shattered that way... but probably he did homewreck and his meddling brings Kang....

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Yes! This is the kind of discussion I'd hoped this would spark.

According to the rules of time travel that were clearly explained in Endgame, when Steve went back to 1948* to be with Peggy his arrival there created an alternate timeline that branched off from the main 616 MCU. In that new, alternate universe, Steve was always Peggy's husband and her kids were fathered by him.

(Markus & McFeely said in an interview that Steve went back to the end of Agent Carter's second season and met Peggy at a time when she had fallen out with Agent Sousa, who may not even have been her eventual husband in the main universe. Steve & Peggy married soon after and the rest is alternate-universe history.)

Nothing whatsoever was changed about the life of Peggy Carter in the main universe by the creation of the new branch universe. Peggy's marriage to another man and her kids with him still exist because it is impossible to alter or erase events once they have happened. This was firmly established in Endgame and explained by The Ancient One, Bruce Banner and Tony Stark. So those kids and their spawn still exist in the MCU, not that anyone besides nitpicking fans gives two s**ts about them.

People who feel anger over Steve "selfishly" creating a whole universe just so he can be happy should be really angry that the Avengers created half a dozen or more new branch universes just to restore the people who were dusted in their universe in the snap. In each of those new universes left without their Infinity Stones, even for a short time, untold havoc could have occurred that affected billions or trillions of innocent lives. What effect did knocking Peter Quill unconscious on Morag just as Korath arrived looking for the Power Stone have in that universe, for instance? Even if we accept that Steve returned that stone to its exact place and time, Quill might not have recovered soon enough to keep it out of Korath's hands, which would lead to a cascade of dire events. And so on for all of the other universes the stones were stolen from. Perhaps the entire Marvel Cinematic Multiverse was changed drastically so that one lone universe could restore life to some of its inhabitants.

How utterly selfish of the Avengers of Universe 616.

Let's whine about that for a while, shall we?

Again, I think that people are given the option to believe a few different things here. And that there's precedent for both. I mean, if they wanted us to *know* what Cap did, they could have had him appear with the GPS rather than walk up to a park bench.

In fact, they never even confirmed who his wife was canonically. So yeah, its pretty ambiguous. You get to wonder. Which I think is better.

As far as whining about the Avengers actions, I think that's ****ing perfect. This thread is made to whine about one specific timeline. I think another should be made to discuss the potential ramifications of the Loki Timeline and the Thanos-less Timeline.

The Avengers screw **** up. It's what they do. Thor brought Loki to Earth. Stark created Ultron. Cap split up the Avengers? (meh, just making a point) The Avengers aren't perfect, every time they try to help they muck things up a bit.

That describes the opposite of the man that went toe to toe with a mad alien bent on becoming the dark god of a new creation. That's not the man that said to Natasha "Other people move on... But not us."

I think unintended consequences of actions would indeed be a lesson Steve would either have to painfully learn or one which he had already have factored into his choice to live in an alternate timeline. I find that easier to swallow than Cap shrugging his shoulders on Sept. 11th and going "What are ya gonna do? You don't punch people any more Steve." It is rather incongruous that the man that spearheaded a high stakes mission to travel through time to restore half the universe's lives after it seemed most everyone else in the world had given up hope that anything could be done about it (including genius Tony Stark when he first learns about the idea) and then fought off the most powerful non-cosmic entity super villain in the MCU to date to make sure that all that he had done wasn't for naught AND THEN ON TOP OF ALL THAT, leads the combined forces of Earth's mightiest heroes in a pitched battle against this would be dark god's army of minions... That man? That man in no way had grown out of his "When I see things go south I can't sit by and watch" characterization. What we see in AEG isn't him getting beyond that, he's just gotten smarter about how he goes about it, thus that "Hail Hydra" moment and using psychological tactics to gain the upper hand on his past self.


The man that after being beaten like a government mule, seeing his indestructible shield ripped to pieces and a alien army come at him hard and fast who straps what's left of his shield down to his fractured arm and marches off to meet certain death head on...

No, I can't find any indication that guy has evolved into some kind of "Welp, things are gonna be the way they are. I just have to get used to not being able to change things" type of attitude. One day? Yeah. Maybe. But not the guy we see through the run time of AEG.

I actually do like Zarex's opinion of Cap changing in specifically that moment when all of his chips were on the table. And he realized, finally, he's not the only one to stand up against an alien army. He passed the torch so to speak to all the Avengers, and to Sam less metaphorically.

 

[Shuri]

My answer to this is that they should never had ended Steve's arc like that. It's the most debated part of the movie and lots of people didn't like it, even though it didn't ruin the movie for them. If the writers and the directors are not even on the same page with this, then they should have left it alone. They wanted Steve to have a happy ending so they went with this ending for him. But the truth is Steve never needed Peggy to have a happy ending. He could have retired, given Sam the shield, and decided to explore the 21st century. He never got to really live in it since he woke up.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Speaking as someone who had to give up the person they believed they would be with for the rest of their lives, I think it's a solid ending that 'allows' the 'fairy-tale' to have a happy ending, and who doesn't love a happy ending involving two people who were 'meant to be'. It's not real-life guys, cos I can tell you, real-life is waaaay more painful.