Endgame Is Cap a Homewrecker? (poll)

Is Cap Peggy's husband and baby daddy in The Winter Soldier?

  • No, Cap started a new timeline and is only with her in one of the branches.

    Votes: 25 67.6%
  • Yes, Cap's promise transcended spacetime and he always met Peggy for that dance.

    Votes: 8 21.6%
  • I refuse to decide. It's intentionally left ambiguous for the sake of discussion.

    Votes: 4 10.8%

  • Total voters
    37
I agree with Mandon Knight. This is a "fairy tale ending" and I will say, if we can believe Thanos can win in 14 million potential futures, Iron Man can store enough Nanites on his person to generate and regenerate the Iron Man suit, Thor's body can survive the blast of a neutron star, and a stone can turn back time... I am fully committed and ready to believe that Cap was able to transcend time and space and always had the determination to return to his one true love. So it was written, so it shall be.

Just sayin. That's how I see it. :')
 
Captain America got frozen, Peggy married another person, had kids, died.

Current Captain America went in a different time line when Peggy was single and still waiting for him, and lived with here there.

The film established with CAPS ON that you Cant! Change! The! Past! and yet there are still people, in this thread as well, that think that Cap somehow erased her other husband and kids. She never met the other husband in the alternate timeline. And, no, Captain America was never her first husband, in that (current MCU) timeline, he got frozen and Peggy moved on. In the MCU timeline Sharon is still there along with whoever else came out of Peggy's original marriage.

Iron Man and Cap travel without the platform so it’s also established in the film that you don’t need it provided you had enough Pym particles.

The directors went on and confirmed all of it, point blank, leaving no place for misinterpretation and people still refuse to accept it. It boggles the mind.
 
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Captain America got frozen, Peggy married another person, had kids, died.

Current Captain America went in a different time line when Peggy was single and still waiting for him, and lived with here there.

The film established with CAPS ON that you Cant! Change! The! Past! and yet there are still people, in this thread as well, that think that Cap somehow erased her other husband and kids. She never met the other husband in the alternate timeline. And, no, Captain America was never her first husband, in that (current MCU) timeline, he got frozen and Peggy moved on. In the MCU timeline Sharon is still there along with whoever else came out of Peggy's original marriage.

Iron Man and Cap travel without the platform so it’s also established in the film that you don’t need it provided you had enough Pym particles.

The directors went on and confirmed all of it, point blank, leaving no place for misinterpretation and people still refuse to accept it. It boggles the mind.
I come from the Trekkies and we had a rule that only what aired counts. If the directors wanted to make something canon then they have to release it for all to see because of they don't the director of the next episode can change their stated opinion and set the canonical story.

So in this type of discussion the directors stated intent holds no greater weight than any other fan theory that can be argued persuasively . As we are seeing in this particular debate where the directors and screenwriters agreed to disagree and leave it up for the fan to fill in the blanks.
 
I come from the Trekkies and we had a rule that only what aired counts. If the directors wanted to make something canon then they have to release it for all to see because of they don't the director of the next episode can change their stated opinion and set the canonical story.

So in this type of discussion the directors stated intent holds no greater weight than any other fan theory that can be argued persuasively . As we are seeing in this particular debate where the directors and screenwriters agreed to disagree and leave it up for the fan to fill in the blanks.

There's isn't a debate. There are people who misinterpreted the film when it came out and are still being stubborn about it. This is akin to denying that Tony died because we didn't see his body being put down in a casket. He's alive, the ''funeral'' was there to fake out future baddies when Tony comes back out of nowhere!

The film spells everything out.

You can't change what happened. Captain America saves the world, Peggy moves on. Otherwise Sharon is a schizophrenic. She knows Steve is her Granddad but she's totally cool about the fact that there are two versions of him and worse, she has romantic interest in him. Steve being the original husband makes zero sense both in the film's logic and in the behavior of Old Peggy, Sharon and everyone else. This isn't a circular time travel scenario. The film hammers that for 10 minutes. You go back, you create a different branch, a different timeline, you don't come back where you started.

The only reason Steve didn't come back on the platform was simply because of dramatic effect. We see him on the bench and expect the same old Cap and suddenly he's an old man. You lose that if he pops up standing up right in front of them being 90+ year old and shrunk. But that doesn't break any rules established by the film. Again, both Stark and Cap have zero problems going traveling through time using the bracelet.

Argument A: everything makes sense, everything falls into place, every rule established is followed.

Argument B: nothing make sense, the entirety of the plot doesn't make sense, the time travel doesn't make sense, the behavior of 10 characters makes no sense.
 
Captain America got frozen, Peggy married another person, had kids, died.

Current Captain America went in a different time line when Peggy was single and still waiting for him, and lived with here there.

The film established with CAPS ON that you Cant! Change! The! Past! and yet there are still people, in this thread as well, that think that Cap somehow erased her other husband and kids. She never met the other husband in the alternate timeline. And, no, Captain America was never her first husband, in that (current MCU) timeline, he got frozen and Peggy moved on. In the MCU timeline Sharon is still there along with whoever else came out of Peggy's original marriage.

Iron Man and Cap travel without the platform so it’s also established in the film that you don’t need it provided you had enough Pym particles.

The directors went on and confirmed all of it, point blank, leaving no place for misinterpretation and people still refuse to accept it. It boggles the mind.

First of all, please tell me please how Sharon "came out of Peggy's original marriage." Do you understand how nieces and nephews work?

Second, tell me this. If you can't change the past, how did Cap get to, say, 2013 Asgard without creating ANOTHER new timeline?

Original 2013 Asgard timeline: events of TDW
Second 2013 Asgard timeline: Thor and Rocket visit to steal Aether and Mjolnir
THIRD 2013 Asgard timeline: Cap visits to return the Aether and Mjolnir
[a third timeline is created because "yOu CaN't ChAnGe ThE pAsT" according to you]

So if you can believe that Cap can go to an already existing timeline to return something that was taken, how do you automatically reject the idea that he can return to an already existing timeline to dance with Peggy?
 
"yOu CaN't ChAnGe ThE pAsT"

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So now that we've established even 10 minutes of plot exposition wasn't enough, let's do it again.

Who said that Cap bringing back the hammer changed the past? It course-corrected that alternate timeline. If i go back to the past, steal a banana from someones apartment at 11 pm while they sleep, then get it back at 4 pm the next day while the residents are at work, nothing fundamentally gets changed but it's not the same timeline. In one timeline the banana is in their kitchen that particular night, in another it's not. The future remains the same in both timelines even though they are slightly different. Taking back the hammer results in the same outcome for both the universe where the hammer was taken and the universe where it wasn't.

If you think Steve was the original husband, you don't understand how the film works. It's as simple as that.
 
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Okay, so you agree, one can enter an already established timeline without creating a branch?

-------11pm--------------4pm------------------ original
.................\________4pm___________ branch

Timeline 1: Original banana
Timeline 2: Stolen banana

I get to go to any point on timeline 2 anytime I want without making new branches now? I get to choose to go to 4pm on either timeline now? But additional branches are only created if I go to 4pm on the original timeline? My arrival at 4pm on the branched timeline is totally benign?

Somehow the core timeline is magically the only one that branches can stem from? The movie explicitly states this? Were you given a rulebook on how the MCU works?
 
What I'm saying is that if bringing the hammer/banana back magically course corrects the timeline branch, like a rest stop on a highway, instead of making inherently separate "butterfly effect"-style separate timelines, then there's precedent for magical course correction.

If there's precedent for magical course correction, Eternity or Infinity or whoever is in charge of MCU time travel could just as easily decide Cap's existence in the 40s/50s in the original timeline is just as benign as taking a banana for 17 hours.
 
hahahahahahahahaha

God, I hate this end. Steve Rogers deserved better, Marvel!
 
I've been reading Kurt Busiek's Astro City series on Comixology recently, including one of the all time great comic book stories "The Nearness of You" (It's Astro City #1/2, Free for Download on Comixology. Get it!). In the story a time crime is committed and the mages of that universe try to piece the time line back together. But pieces are lost.

I'd prefer to think that this is what happened as a result of the Avengers time heist. Eternity manipulates reality and prevents branching so that the time line stays intact. But pieces are put slightly askew as a result. Steve goes back and fulfills his destiny as Margaret's fella. But the mere presence of the Avengers in the past has repercussions that will be seen going forward.
 
I see many posters here continually evoking Eternity to negate the branch timeline idea that actually gives Steve a way to both have happiness with Peggy but not have to worry about altering the future or world his friends reside in. For one, we haven't seen Eternity in the MCU. Second, even if that entity does get any screen time in the future it doesn't mean he will function the way some here want him to do in regards to the time travel. Lastly, there are so many variant timelines in the history of Marvel Comics already that even if Eternity does show up, if they have the character as they do in the comics there's more than several decades of Marvel Comics history indicating that alternate timelines are well within the scope of the possible even taking a being like Eternity into consideration.
 
It really only is a case of bad writing. They introduced Sharon way back in TWS and should have stuck with it. So many good things in this film, Cap's ending is not one of them.
 
I see many posters here continually evoking Eternity to negate the branch timeline idea that actually gives Steve a way to both have happiness with Peggy but not have to worry about altering the future or world his friends reside in. For one, we haven't seen Eternity in the MCU. Second, even if that entity does get any screen time in the future it doesn't mean he will function the way some here want him to do in regards to the time travel. Lastly, there are so many variant timelines in the history of Marvel Comics already that even if Eternity does show up, if they have the character as they do in the comics there's more than several decades of Marvel Comics history indicating that alternate timelines are well within the scope of the possible even taking a being like Eternity into consideration.

I use Eternity as a stand in for Intelligent Design. Meaning the universe in which the MCU exists has an overseer guiding its path.

Under this scenario, the creator will not expend the unfathomable amounts of energy required to create new realities whenever there is a hiccup in the time stream. The Creator, whatever name it takes, will "plug the gaps" to allow time to flow forward (and backward) with minimal disruptions. As the Ancient One stated, time branches are a problem that must be snuffed out.
 
My thinking is Steve HAD changed. As shown in the film, by 2023 he was no longer the painfully earnest "I can do this all day!" guy. He was also no longer the "When I see a situation pointed south, I just can't ignore it" guy. He was a fella sick of punching who wanted to get busy living. Citizen Steve.

Why didn't Somewhat Selfish Citizen Steve get involved in the upcoming horrific events of which he had full knowledge? Time Branches! There was no way of knowing if becoming involved in Vietnam, Civil Rights and/or Hydra would have led to even more horrifying outcomes. So he was forced to stay on the sidelines. Citizen Steve was a good dad, got involved in the PTA, led a recycling drive and made a casserole for Ginny down the block when her husband passed. He was a good man who led a good life. And left all the punching to the OTHER Captain America.

So you're saying that Steve just sat watching Peggy Carter interact with members of Hydra while she was in Shield ?? See the love of his life being fooled by members of the Hydra? He having to hear Peggy say that one of her friends from Shield who actually is Hydra is going to come to dinner with them, and he was ok with that?

Did he see the love of his life mourn the death of Tony's parents knowing who killed them ?? Really?

It brings me back to the end of CW and how much Steve felt bad for keeping that secret from Tony. I cannot believe that Steve has changed so much to the point of doing this with Peggy, the love of his life (bs).

The ending is not bad for Steve, but it's for Peggy too who was reduced to a trophy wife for the hero.
 
So you're saying that Steve just sat watching Peggy Carter interact with members of Hydra while she was in Shield ?? See the love of his life being fooled by members of the Hydra? He having to hear Peggy say that one of her friends from Shield who actually is Hydra is going to come to dinner with them, and he was ok with that?

Did he see the love of his life mourn the death of Tony's parents knowing who killed them ?? Really?

It brings me back to the end of CW and how much Steve felt bad for keeping that secret from Tony. I cannot believe that Steve has changed so much to the point of doing this with Peggy, the love of his life (bs).

The ending is not bad for Steve, but it's for Peggy too who was reduced to a trophy wife for the hero.

Citizen Steve didnt get involved because he knew it would all work out in the end. And Citizen Steve didn't want to risk possibly causing horrific ramifications.

There were definitely cleaner ways for ending Steve's story. The super soldier serum could have stopped working, aging him rapidly. He could have decided he will fight no more and settle down with Sharon in an expanded cape. Or he could have gotten stabbed in the heart by the Thanos copter blade.

Staying in the past is much more complicated. He can go Full Cap and make major changes either with word or deed, and hope it doesn't end up with the rule of Dog Hitler. Or he can do some of that living he's heard so much about. I prefer to think he did the latter.
 
Once more... These problems, the problems of "Citizen Steve" are almost completely solved if instead of thinking of time travel in the ways SPECIFICALLY the film goes out of its way to tell you as a viewer it is not employing in this story and in place of that one embraces the notion that Steve lives his life in a branched timeline where he is free to act as he chooses and deviate events because of his foreknowledge of events, people etc. from 1946-2023.

But resisting this idea seems important to some fans for reasons I don't quite understand.
 
But if Steve goes into a new timeline only to go Full Cap and prevent all the horrors he knows are coming.......well, that ain't exactly living. Which is what our guy Steve set out to do.

I admit, I can't get around the idea of reality creation as some benign side effect of time travel. And the idea that new timelines are a ginormous problem is a stand I share with both the Ancient One and Mordu. Steve opting to live a non superhero life in our past seems more reasonable to me than his choosing to create an entire new reality in which he can shag Margaret. And then somehow cross over into the original reality to hand Sam a shield.

Until I see or hear otherwise, I'm going with the idea that our Time Heisters put everything back where it belongs. And after Loki puts the space stone back, no new time lines will be created.
 
But if Steve goes into a new timeline only to go Full Cap and prevent all the horrors he knows are coming.......well, that ain't exactly living. Which is what our guy Steve set out to do.

I admit, I can't get around the idea of reality creation as some benign side effect of time travel. And the idea that new timelines are a ginormous problem is a stand I share with both the Ancient One and Mordu. Steve opting to live a non superhero life in our past seems more reasonable to me than his choosing to create an entire new reality in which he can shag Margaret. And then somehow cross over into the original reality to hand Sam a shield.

Until I see or hear otherwise, I'm going with the idea that our Time Heisters put everything back where it belongs. And after Loki puts the space stone back, no new time lines will be created.


See... I don't consider consigning Steve to decades and decades of mental anguish, angst and torture to be "living" myself.

Your supposition, and it's not an out there position, is that Steve made a decision to retire after the battle with Thanos and the sacrifice of Tony Stark and used the mission to return the stones and the hammer as cover. He lives his whole life secretly in the background of the MCU and appears at the right moment to hand a newly created shield to Sam and pass the role of Captain America off to him.

My issue with your take is that, once more, the film goes to great lengths to explain the mechanism of time travel to the audience and the above doesn't fit the film's time travel explanation. Second, this interpretation hinges on an interesting take, though not totally unfounded, on Steve Rogers' personality, character and moral compass. Now I do get to a degree where you are coming from. What you are supposing is that Cap WOULD have the moral fiber to not intervene during those decades and decades so as not to mess with the flow of events. I get that as a legit view of Cap. It's easy to think of him from the view that given the stakes he would hold fast for "the greater good".

But... I would call that a formula for the worst possible way for Cap to have lived from 1946 to 2023. And also one which would make him at best either a distant partner to Peggy or a embittered and perhaps even emasculated feeling one. I can suppose that Cap would balance out the need for action against the greater good of the ultimate flow of events in the timeline... But I don't see that as the absolute and only way this would or could affect him. This set of circumstances is a bit different than say some other scenario of his retirement and putting the shield down for good. As and example, say he instead stays in 2023 and goes off into the sunset with Sharon Carter (However one feels about the character, who seems radioactive for reasons that baffle the **** out of me around the Hype... Just go with this.) and, I don't know... He asks Black Panther to build a new shield and hands it off to Sam, same as before and now he's your "Citizen Steve" only still youthful and in the post AEG/2023 timeline. Now there will be more tragic and momentous events to come of course. Both in terms of fiction, this is a super hero universe after all, as well as in real life. Now retired Steve in this set up just has to accept that he's moved on, and he has to console himself at least partially I think with the idea that he'll never know what he could have done to prevent certain events. He's the gunslinger that's hung up his guns.

But your scenario doesn't even give him that out. Going back in time and having to stay anonymous in the flow of history for the sake of not ruining the timeline is more than just an exercise in some kind of objective morality. This isn't like being retired in a post 2023 world and WONDERING about what one could do in the face or tragedy and emergency. This is absolutely knowing to your core that you alone in all the world with your foreknowledge have the answer to untold amounts of suffering. To be perhaps overly dramatic this is me having the full knowledge of the Sept. the 11th terrorist attacks, doing nothing about them and then walking around Ground Zero in lower Manhattan a year or two years later and looking into the eyes of every person that lost a loved one that day. This would be the equivalent of me having that information, not using it and then having to pass U.S. veterans maimed or mentally unbalanced because of their experiences in the foreign military operations that launched because of the attacks. This is thinking of the civilian deaths in those foreign countries which were consequences of the Al-Qaeda attacks of 2001. It's all that and decades more... And instead of it being regular guy ME, instead it's Steve Rogers, Captain Freaking America. A man burdened now not only with the very specific knowledge of what will happen and how to stop it but one almost uniquely equipped to be the man to actually do something about these events. Only... He can't.


That's mind-**** city in my opinon. Even if he comes to terms with that and accepts it all, on some level he's still going to be emotionally affected by this. And not just something that you can get over in the span of some years. This is something that would hang over him for 70 plus years.

That's consigning Steve to a living hell in my opinion. That's forcing Peggy to have to live with either a very angry or bitter person or a person that will forever be unsure of his decision to be with her. None of this is a good formula for a happy marriage.


And once more... None of it is even necessary to even consider given that AEG lays out that Cap can indeed time travel, live with Peggy and not have to worry about the repercussions of his actions on the time and place he came from or any of his friends' lives due to how the film more than once lays out it's temporal transportation mechanics.
 
Citizen Steve didnt get involved because he knew it would all work out in the end. And Citizen Steve didn't want to risk possibly causing horrific ramifications.

There were definitely cleaner ways for ending Steve's story. The super soldier serum could have stopped working, aging him rapidly. He could have decided he will fight no more and settle down with Sharon in an expanded cape. Or he could have gotten stabbed in the heart by the Thanos copter blade.

Staying in the past is much more complicated. He can go Full Cap and make major changes either with word or deed, and hope it doesn't end up with the rule of Dog Hitler. Or he can do some of that living he's heard so much about. I prefer to think he did the latter.

This is not Steve Rogers. How can he live knowing everything that will happen and doing nothing? see Peggy interact with the Hydra, knowing that his friends Howard and Maria would die at Bucky's hands, how will he look into Little Tony's eyes? This is ****ed up, does not make sense. No human being could live like this.

I have no problem with him retiring, but the implication that he stood there doing nothing is out of character. It makes him an extremely selfish person, a worse kind of selfish, someone who is there living like a liar all the time. As he can not tell, he's going to have to lie all the time for over 70 years because he just thinks about himself. That's not Steve Rogers!
 
Citizen Steve, unable to live a simple life and not interfere with the time line, informs Peggy that HYDRA is secretly infiltrating SHIELD. She takes immediate action and is murdered by loyalists to Zola. Oops!

Yeah, the idea of Steve controlling himself by keeping quiet, and simply being a good man can be hard to conceive. But so is his pulling in the threads of the time line and abandoning the life for which he traveled through time. Once you start snitching on HYDRA and rescuing Bucky you've gone FULL CAP, which it seems like he was trying to avoid.

And if not, how the heck was he able to cross time lines at the end to give the shield to Sam?
 
Citizen Steve, unable to live a simple life and not interfere with the time line, informs Peggy that HYDRA is secretly infiltrating SHIELD. She takes immediate action and is murdered by loyalists to Zola. Oops!

Yeah, the idea of Steve controlling himself by keeping quiet, and simply being a good man can be hard to conceive. But so is his pulling in the threads of the time line and abandoning the life for which he traveled through time. Once you start snitching on HYDRA and rescuing Bucky you've gone FULL CAP, which it seems like he was trying to avoid.

And if not, how the heck was he able to cross time lines at the end to give the shield to Sam?

How the hell are "Hydra loyalists" murdering Peggy in 1946?
 
How the hell are "Hydra loyalists" murdering Peggy in 1946?

With a candlestick in the library? I haven't worked out all the details.

My point being, early notice by Madge of Hydra involvement could end up with the bad guys winning. Whereas if Citizen Steve keeps his big mouth shut he knows the good guys ultimately win.
 
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