Endgame Is Cap a Homewrecker? (poll)

[KRYPTON INC.]

Citizen Steve, unable to live a simple life and not interfere with the time line, informs Peggy that HYDRA is secretly infiltrating SHIELD. She takes immediate action and is murdered by loyalists to Zola. Oops!

Yeah, the idea of Steve controlling himself by keeping quiet, and simply being a good man can be hard to conceive. But so is his pulling in the threads of the time line and abandoning the life for which he traveled through time. Once you start snitching on HYDRA and rescuing Bucky you've gone FULL CAP, which it seems like he was trying to avoid.

And if not, how the heck was he able to cross time lines at the end to give the shield to Sam?

Unintended consequences would indeed be a lesson he'd probably have to learn. But that's also something for any action. If anything, better for him to work in the unknown than to be tortured by knowledge and be forced into a straitjacket of impotence.

And since we see Steve with his ring on and pretty content with the life he experienced... I don't think Peggy was done in by Hydra agents or a similar outcome.

As for how he got back... He had the Pym particles and Tony's GPS device plus in a world where he altered the flow of events who is to say what new and brilliant minds and breakthroughs were available to him. It's an alternate world wear Steve simply having been exposed to the advances and ideas of the next seven plus decades can impliment them as he sees fit. Maybe his method of travel was a combination of the Pym paticles, the Time GPS and some other method?

Here is a question... If Steve has always been in the MCU prime timeline lurking around in the background... Where did the new shield come from? When did he have it made? Who made it? Because now that brings more variables into play, no? More people that are involved on some level that would have to keep quiet beyond just Peggy and Steve for seven decades. And to make a new shield requires knowledge and resources that by its nature attracts attention. It also by any imagining isn't an operation that can only be carried out by two to three people. Depending on where the vibranium comes from you got Cap having to make some kind of secret deal with Wakanda OR steal it. He needs a person with Stark level or Wakandan brains to forge it. This is a fraught operation that risks his exposure, which under your scenario he would go out of his way to avoid. Finding a way into Wakanda before T'challa opens the nation up, either making a deal for the Vibranium or bringing some huge amounts of cash (Where does citizen "Can't alter time or use my knowledge for any gain" Steve coming up with the funds for that?!! This isn't something that costs what a nice bunch of investments would yield. We aren't talking a nest egg of a few million dollars here to pull this off.) to pay for the whole shebang. Or getting the Vibranium and then smuggling it out of Wakanda and back to wherever and getting a new shield made... Even with Steve and Peggy this requires in some fashion a chain of individuals, knowingly or not being a part of this. That's just increasing the risk of exposure.

Meanwhile the more likely and less convoluted explanation which the film itself goes to great lengths to hammer home is right there.

I still haven't heard what the issue is which makes the branching timeline idea so unpalatable to some fans? Why is this so irksome?

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

I still haven't heard what the issue is which makes the branching timeline idea so unpalatable to some fans? Why is this so irksome?

I think that they fear it leaves a too easy opportunity for directors going forward to unconnect the all connected MCU. Here on out every director not wanting to deal with something the Russos, Whedon Favreau, etc laid down as canon can claim other timeline or multiverse.

Just as the Ancient One needed the stone for her and eventually Dr Strange to defend her timeline; the fan defending the MCU as the only universe, needs a closed loop with old man Steve living his life but keeping to a temporal prime directive, to use Trek talk, and not act on the knowledge of his Avenger past when he returned to Peggy to live his future all without a change to the past that we have been watching movies about for the last 10 years

 

[Zarex]

I think that they fear it leaves a too easy opportunity for directors going forward to unconnect the all connected MCU. Here on out every director not wanting to deal with something the Russos, Whedon Favreau, etc laid down as canon can claim other timeline or multiverse.

Just as the Ancient One needed the stone for her and eventually Dr Strange to defend her timeline; the fan defending the MCU as the only universe, needs a closed loop with old man Steve living his life but keeping to a temporal prime directive, to use Trek talk, and not act on the knowledge of his Avenger past when he returned to Peggy to live his future all without a change to the past that we have been watching movies about for the last 10 years

Thats kinda it. Also, we've been told by multiple supremely powerful sorcerers that time branching is a bad thing. The idea that our hero went back in time to create a new and possibly disastrous reality is, to me, much more selfish than making a choice to stick to the sidelines.

As to the shield? - Old Man Rogers asked T'Challa to make him a new one as a gift for Sam before the funeral.

 

[ScarlettW]

With a candlestick in the library? I haven't worked out all the details.

My point being, early notice by Madge of Hydra involvement could end up with the bad guys winning. Whereas if Citizen Steve keeps his big mouth shut he knows the good guys ultimately win.

Steve would not let the Hydra kill Peggy, they would certainly use strategies to take down the Hydra.
He's sitting there, even though he knows the good guys will win, does not change the fact that he's going to be lying to Peggy all the time, he's going to have to pretend he does not know anything, he's going to have to pretend to be sad for Howard and Maria, lie to Tony, to all his friends. This is not Steve Rogers.

His end is bad writing.
Steve creating a new alternate line does not mean he will full cap, he can keep low key helping friends without having to fight.

Even him creating an alternate line is still bad.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Thats kinda it. Also, we've been told by multiple supremely powerful sorcerers that time branching is a bad thing. The idea that our hero went back in time to create a new and possibly disastrous reality is, to me, much more selfish than making a choice to stick to the sidelines.

As to the shield? - Old Man Rogers asked T'Challa to make him a new one as a gift for Sam before the funeral.

"Oh hey... King T'challa you don't know me and there is almost no way I could get into contact with you without risking exposure in some way leading up to this but could you make for me, guy that is certainly NOT Steve Rogers an exact replica of the Capt. America shield? Why? No reason."

Which brings up another issue... How exactly did Steve Rogers maintain this under cover lifestyle for decades? We know from the film his story and his likeness were well known, world famous even. His associates were also well known. They and their lives were well chronicled enough to be featured in museum exhibits.

So... Suddenly in 1945/1946 a guy that looks exactly like Steve Rogers shows up in Peggy Carter's life. Peggy Carter who becomes a high muckety muck of various government positions. And at no point does this get brought up by either the varying journalists or historians that interview her nor is this a point of contention with say, intelligence agencies? Hostile or friendly no one in 70 years put together that Peggy's house husband was Steve Rogers? And he'd be a house husband for decades, not really neing able to live that "life" since he couldn't risk exposure. There's no Steve and Peggy (whom we know continued on in high orofile positions) going about town as a regular couple since, to absolutely be a broken record, this again risks exposure. Any justifucation one could come up with is going to be terribly weak and convoluted for how this was not only going to work but also how in the hell any of this adds up to "happiness" for Peggy and Steve since any normality is trumped by the need to keep the secret of his existence.

Now I already know at least one rationale... Peggy was with SHIELD and a highly trained and experienced intel agent. They could pull this all off between the two of them... In a word: No. This all requires a multitude of people somehow doing a lot of work to keep this a secret. And they are another link in a chain of potential exposure. Not to mention the lengths they, Peggy and Steve and anyone involved would have to go through to keep this up until such time that Steve aged enough to not look like his younger self would be silly as to be ludicrous. Did Steve just wear sunglasses and a baseball cap every day for like 40 years?

And I still don't understand using the Ancient One as some kind of justification. She so obviously meant that the branch created by removing the time stone had direct negative impact through the fact that in that branch Strange would not have it to pull off his Groundhog day trick in his movie and save us all from the Dark Dimension. Any other opinion on branching/alternate timelines is pure inference.

All these convolutions, all these jumping through narrative hoopscrequired, all these REALLY negative affects upon the "hidden" lives of Peggy and Steve which almost ensures a terrible marriage... They all go away if one just actually accepts what the movie itself tells the audience like three or four times about how the story is approaching time travel.

 

[Zarex]

How exactly do said convolution go away? The "Suddenly in 1945/46 a guy that looks exactly like Steve Rogers shows up in Peggy Carter's life" scenario happens regardless of whether or not Steve goes into the MCU past or makes a time branch for him and Madge. So if you think Peggy and Steve were sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G on a time branch of their own making, how do you suppose THIS version pull off the great deception?

Another scenario would be that Cap had his dance with Peggy and married some other lucky lady. And dressed up in a bat costume to work nights as a vigilante, because apparently it would be out of character for Steve to just live his life as he said he wanted to do.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Okay, I'm late to the convo, but I'm not about to start replying to every quote on here. All I want to say is that Cap's quote is, "If I see a situation pointed south, I can't ignore it. Sometimes I wish I could."

He wishes he could! Here's the thing, knowing the results of Endgame, Cap sees a situation that is not pointed south. He knows that the Avengers triumph. Against Hydra, Thanos, etc. For the first time in his life, he can relax.

If he goes back to the 1950s just to start punching again, what kind of retirement is that?!

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

Okay, I'm late to the convo, but I'm not about to start replying to every quote on here. All I want to say is that Cap's quote is, "If I see a situation pointed south, I can't ignore it. Sometimes I wish I could."

He wishes he could! Here's the thing, knowing the results of Endgame, Cap sees a situation that is not pointed south. He knows that the Avengers triumph. Against Hydra, Thanos, etc. For the first time in his life, he can relax.

If he goes back to the 1950s just to start punching again, what kind of retirement is that?!

The good guys win in the end in the MCU but what about the victims in the meantime who lost everything? And there in lies the rub with the Steve went back in time and retired with the knowledge of Hydra growing inside of SHIELD and Soviet Hydra had a slave Bucky story just kept as his secret

Steve Rogers then is not the superhero but just a soldier who fought in WWII and a few more years as an Avenger. He isn't even a good citizen who reports a crime with certain knowledge that an American veteran is being made a slave by the Soviet Union.

 

[ScarlettW]

Steve did not care about the Avengers triumph, he cared about saving lives. The Avengers triumphed, but many people in the last 70 years have lost their lives, the idea of Steve sitting knowing all this because he wants to enjoy Peggy's coochie is out of character.

Think of Steve Rogers watching the Twin Towers catch fire, people dying while he's there enjoying his coffee as if nothing was happening because the Avengers triumph in the end? lol No, no way.

 

[The Caped Knight]

I'm just going to put this out there this clip from Civil War tells you about the moral Character of Steve Rogers.

"If I see a situation going south I can't ignore it, sometimes I wish I could but I can't"


I think it's foolish to believe that Steve would just sit idle back and allow things to unfold unaltered. I think he changed history for the better with Peggy and had a wonderful life as well.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Anyone want to discuss the fact that Loki just confirmed

Spoiler

there is no multiverse?

Spoiler

 

[Zarex]

After Time Travel was introduced in Endgame I figured it was inevitable at one point we would be introduced to a governing body with the juice to make sense out of the incomprehensible. I figured it would be Eternity or other cosmic mega power, but I am delighted this responsibility has been placed in the hands of a Brazil type beaurocracy.

The result is that

Spoiler

all the branches created in Endgame were snipped. And Steve traveled back into his own past, not a separate branch.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Is someone gonna tell the team on the Doc Strange sequel?

 

[Zarex]

If we don't have a Loki induced multiverse by the end of the series I will eat my cherished horned replica helmet.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I refuse to believe that Cap was always married to Peggy.

 

[Another_Fool]

Why is it bad that Steve was always married to Peggy?

 

[Time Captain]

Steve did not care about the Avengers triumph, he cared about saving lives. The Avengers triumphed, but many people in the last 70 years have lost their lives, the idea of Steve sitting knowing all this because he wants to enjoy Peggy's coochie is out of character.

Think of Steve Rogers watching the Twin Towers catch fire, people dying while he's there enjoying his coffee as if nothing was happening because the Avengers triumph in the end? lol No, no way.

It's in character. If Steve attempted to alter the past, it would undermine Tony's sacrifice, and the one possible future where Thanos was defeated. Steve had the patience to play the long-game.

Steve being Peg's husband all along was a brilliant move. Pre-destination paradox. A solid bookend to the character.


What would be interesting to explore is whether they had any children who may have inherited Steve's abilities..

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Once more...

Is anyone gonna tell the Doc Strange team they need to retitle their sequel film?

Or... Are some jumping the gun to give some shine to their personal druthers about the way AEG ended?

 

[TheVileOne]

I hated Cap's ending going back in time to marry Peggy, stupid.

Secondly, Sharon was marginalized and tossed aside in the MCU. They did not do right by her character ever. It's never sat well with me how Sharon was treated.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

heard an interesting fan theory ...

Spoiler

that Cap in his traveling back encountered the TVA, and was sent to the void, but found his own way past the Alioth an into the castle, where he met, He who remained, who offered him a deal to allow him to go back to live his life with Peggy

 

[Calvin Ellis]

I always though it was a huge miss that Marvel never actually shows us Peggy's reaction to Steve being alive.

 

[TheVileOne]

Still the whole issue of Peggy having a husband and getting married and all that.