First Avenger Is Captain America like Batman when it comes to killing?

[Shivsguy616]

or within what ever laws apply to Shield operatives

Exactly.

 

[Shivsguy616]

I believe that guns are for killing, and killing is the ultimate violation of individual rights---the ultimate denial of freedom.
-- Captain America

This is a quote from Captain America Vol. 1 issue 322 (the issue following the uzi cover) That quote kinda sums up how cap feels about guns and killing.

Funny, for someone in the know, that's just wrong. The ultimate violation of individual rights is undisputedly torture.

 

[ultimatefan]

I´ll just say this:

a) He´s killed in comics, unwillingly, but he did, so it´s not a violation of canon.

b) Even if the modern version would adopt the no-killing rule, in his origin he´s a soldier fighting in the battlefield, against thousands of enemies shooting and throwing bombs, he´s expected to kill, it´s just part of war. It isn´t any less honorable than what the ally soldiers did in WWII, which wasn´t like the Vietnam War or Iraq or whatever, it was the least morally dubious war in history, it was to put down a dictatorship based on hatred against difference and ethnic cleansing that intended to spread all over the world.

 

[SpiderByte]

Yeah, he totally used guns. It doesn't tarnish the character, because it's actually true to the source material.

 

[Mercurius]

I believe that guns are for killing, and killing is the ultimate violation of individual rights---the ultimate denial of freedom.
-- Captain America

This is a quote from Captain America Vol. 1 issue 322 (the issue following the uzi cover) That quote kinda sums up how cap feels about guns and killing.

End of discussion. Thanks, Rage.

 

[Mercurius]

Yeah, he totally used guns. It doesn't tarnish the character, because it's actually true to the source material.

This is s. Palin & C. Heston's Captain Cadaverica.

 

[captainrogers]

End of discussion. Thanks, Rage.

Wait.....what was the discussion?

 

[captainrogers]

Yeah, he totally used guns. It doesn't tarnish the character, because it's actually true to the source material.

I like that cover. But I don't think that novel was cannon. He had metal or some such surgical implantations in his bones. I'll have to dig out my copy and check.

 

[afan]

its super "soldier" remember that. batman became a vigilante so killing is not part of his martial arts creed etc. cap is a trained soldier and killing is part of wartime. for modern cap im sure he will tone it down to subduing his enemy especially since he is so powerful and random thugs are not worth killing. for super villians im sure he wants to bring people to justice instead of giving them the easy way out through death. so wartime yes kill, modern times let justice prevail. cant have recurring villians if you kill em.

This misconception ........drives me bats!

 

[Shivsguy616]

Not really an appropriate image for this site.

 

[Mercurius]

Well, but we have to face the fact that the thread is kinda bloodthirsty.

In this sense, that image could be a little educative about how ugly killing really is.

Not just muscled men posing with weapons sorta thing (that's sufficiently ugly FOR ME, but the poll says otherwise).

 

[SpiderByte]

I remember an episode of JLU where Deadman posseses Batman, has him pick up a gun and shoot Black Manta. When he left, Batman got so pissed and threw the gun across the room.

That's what I'd like to see. When Cap kills someone, he should feel guilty as hell about it.

 

[afan]

You're right Shivsguy616, I've removed the image; no mean to offend and I apologize if I did, but the oft mentioned statement that Batman is a vigilante boils my blood. Vigilantes judge guilt and deal out punishment according to thier own rules with no regard or respect for the laws of society. That is not Batman.

 

[Shivsguy616]

No mean to offend and I apologize if I did, but the oft mentioned statement that Batman is a vigilante boils my blood. Vigilantes judge guilt and deal out punishment according to thier own rules with no regard or respect for the laws of society. That is not Batman.

When it's rationalised out, most "superheros" are vigilante, law breaking, thugs, seeking vengence and issueing punishment with no moral or legal warrant to do so.

Still, on a site about superheros, which is therefore frequented by children, I'd say the image shouldn't be here.

One can express one's dislike of the term vigilante without images.

No offence taken by the way. I personally think it's good to see pictures and videos of this kind of thing; helps to put your own life and values into perspective. But there's an appropriate place for everything.

 

[afan]

When it's rationalised out, most "superheros" are vigilante, law breaking, thugs, seeking vengence and issueing punishment with no moral or legal warrant to do so.

Still, on a site about superheros, which is therefore frequented by children, I'd say the image shouldn't be here.

One can express one's dislike of the term vigilante without images.

No offence taken by the way. I personally think it's good to see pictures and videos of this kind of thing; helps to put your own life and values into perspective. But there's an appropriate place for everything.

Most super-heroes stop short of this, and that is what differentiates them from vigilantism.

 

[Shivsguy616]

Most super-heroes stop short of this, and that is what differentiates them from vigilantism.

They often beat up the "bad guys".

 

[Nivek]

It's very dis-heartening to hear self described fans so eager to see Superheroes that never took lives kill people off.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

It's very dis-heartening to hear self described fans so eager to see Superheroes that never took lives kill people off.

Thats the thing. Cap did kill.

And Cap is a soldier. In World War II. Fighting against Nazi's. He's not the "superhero" Captain America yet. He's just a soldier slowly becoming the Captain America we all love through his experiences in the war. And its not like the gun will be his primary weapon. The shield will be. Its a little disappointing that there are some people who think he shouldn't at least be armed with secondary weapon in World War II.

Post-WWII Cap should never kill though. Thats not the argument. No is one is saying that once he gets unfrozen he will go gun crazy nor even be arned with a gun.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

End of discussion. Thanks, Rage.

Were you aware that that is Cap's post-war mentality and not his actual mentality during the war?


And I'm getting sick of these detractors accusing everyone else of being incredibly "bloodthirsty" and "guncrazy" when every single comic story of Cap in the War (no matter what continuity) featured him using a gun. It dumbfounds me that this is even an argument considering that Cap will have a gun in a war film.

Cap in WWII = Soldier
Cap in present day = Superhero

 

[Majik1387]

Get out of here with your darn logic.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Were you aware that that is Cap's post-war mentality and not his actual mentality during the war?
And I'm getting sick of these detractors accusing everyone else of being incredibly "bloodthirsty" and "guncrazy" when every single comic story of Cap in the War (no matter what continuity) featured him using a gun. It dumbfounds me that this is even an argument considering that Cap will have a gun in a war film.
Cap in WWII = Soldier
Cap in present day = Superhero

I've seen a couple good ones posted in here about guns themselves. Like "guns destroy," "guns kill." I've got guns, non of them have killed anything. The vilification of an inanimate object, I guess it's easier than blaming the person who pulls the trigger. How dare a hero carry a weapon right?

 

[Tony Stark]

I wanna see Cap go Jack Bauer on some Nazis.

 

[Doc Samson]

um he didnt kill Joker..he maimed him...Joker killed himself to pin it on Batman...guess you need to catch up on some reading too

Agreed, although to be completely fair, Batman did appear to swing around and machine gun a thug to death in one panel, but that's another discussion I suppose. For what this movie is, which is a period piece about Cap's origin, I would think it's highly unlikely he could be the ultimate soldier and not kill anybody in war. He isn't the Punisher, but the circumstances call for extreme prejudice...

 

[Tony Stark]

I really find this thread funny considering Bob Kane first drew Batman carrying around a gun. Of course DC guys always bring up that the Golden Age stuff doesn't count. Ah well.

 

[Anubis]

Thanks to Grant Morrison, everything counts.