Sequels Is Fox killing the X-Men

[Legion]

Well what is a natural progress there? obviously they were likely taking into consideration the OT and the freedom they have to change direction after time travel.


I do get what they were going for, mystique was with magneto in the OT but in the new timeline she stays with xavier

Mystique started to drift away from Magneto offscreen before DoFP. In the first scene we see her in, you could sense some animosity when she is asked about Magneto and she says she's on her own now.

Another poster has mentioned that they think it's great that Mystique has been portrayed as a strong female. I think there were other ways to do this other than making her the founder of the X-Men. The series hasn't really had a main villain that was female. It could have been Dark Phoenix in X3 but she was Magneto's pawn more than anything and wasn't of strong character. Mystique left that beach in First Class in favor of mutant supremacy. She could have followed that path without Magneto, becoming the leader of her own brotherhood.

They also could have done a story focusing on her and Nightcrawler as the son she had with Azazal (you know that guy in First Class who is actually Nightcrawler's father in the comics). They could have introduced Destiny as her female lover. She still could have been a strong female character and had a prominent role in the series. I feel like everything was there to give her a rich back story and make her an interesting character. They just chose to do something much different that felt unearned and doesn't help the franchise or the character IMO.

Yep and on the jet she says that the FC characters were the X-Men when she was telling the story which they didn't even call themselves. I don't think that was a butt kiss for Lawrence It was a slight retcon to say they were X-Men when they went to fight shaw and it's like a pass down to the next generation type deal here

First off it's way too soon to be retconning things. This is a trilogy of films we're talking about. The third film shouldn't be retconning events that occurred in the first and second films.

Also think about why the writers would make this change. Is it necessary for the film? How does it help this trilogy or the franchise going forward? I see no purpose for this kind of change other than to strengthen Mystique's role in the X-Men lore.

Mystique become xavier a sister way before Jlaw become famous, this is something people forgot because there is so much paranoia behind it that no one in the creative team has any free will apparently.

Bryan singer himself said if he could choose anyone to get a spin off it would be mystique whether it's Jennifer Lawrence or not.

I haven't forgotten.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Did Singer really say "whether it's JLaw or not?" I don't remember that interview.

Beast knows self defence tactics? When did that happen? I know he is meant to be agile, strong and fast.

I think he learned it at the same time Storm was being taught wire fu.

Infact Why are you moving onto beast now?

People here have always been talking about Beast's lack of development in this trilogy compared to Xavier's, Magneto's and Mystique's importance to the X-men lore.

Where have you been?

 

[Frankeh]

Mystique left that beach in First Class in favor of mutant supremacy. She could have followed that path without Magneto, becoming the leader of her own brotherhood.

Agreed, I believe that was the direction they were going with her - slowly gravitating towards OT Mystique. I mean why else have her join Magneto? At the start of DOFP when she's saving mutants I thought she would be recruiting for her Brotherhood which would've been very interesting. By the end they decided to make her good girl Mystique, the most boring incarnation of the character.

They also could have done a story focusing on her and Nightcrawler as the son she had with Azazal (you know that guy in First Class who is actually Nightcrawler's father in the comics).

Bryan Singer has done a bait and switch with Mystique and Nightcrawler twice now. The family relationships in the X-Verse have largely been passed over in films. Im tired of thinking "in the sequel it will be addressed".

 

[GuestStar2004]

Did Singer really say "whether it's JLaw or not?" I don't remember that interview.

Bryan Singer -

I think [Mystique’s] right for [a standalone], whether it’s Jennifer [Lawrence] or not. She has this different view of the world. Xavier can get into Cerebro and look at the world but he’d rather just teach classes and see the beauty of mutants and humans co-existing in his mansion in Westchester. Along comes Raven with a reality check on the state of the world. It opens up a lot of avenues.

http://www.slashfilm.com/mystique-solo-movie/

People here have always been talking about Beast's lack of development in this trilogy compared to Xavier's, Magneto's and Mystique's importance to the X-men lore.

Where have you been?

Where have i been? on here a very long time and throwing beast into the argument just felt really disconnected

 

[GuestStar2004]

Mystique left that beach in First Class in favor of mutant supremacy. She could have followed that path without Magneto, becoming the leader of her own brotherhood.

Yeah but its kinda obvious what the idea was, it was originally gonna be a prequel, mystique was gonna go with magneto and that was gonna be a prequel to the OT, they didn't know if they would get a sequel to FC so they left things in a place where it could loosely fit together if there wasn't another one.

Course by the time DOFP came alone they had decided they were gonna do time travel stuff and change things up which opened the door to do something different with the characters if they so wished.

Now obviously people can have one eye open on the comics and say this is how she should have gone but the director and writer, probably more so the director cares about the characters and their journey but also cares about the legacy of the films so while mystique went with magneto in the OT she instead stayed with charles in the new timeline.

if it wasn't for the fact some are bitter she was even important at all i think you could see why that was an interesting way to conclude the 3 character arc started in FC with what was actually expected to go the OT route.

 

[marvelrobbins]

it really doesn't matter if bryan singer thought mystique should have her own solo film he is gone from franchise now.

 

[GuestStar2004]

it really doesn't matter if bryan singer thought mystique should have her own solo film he is gone from franchise now.

In terms of a solo it probably wouldn't matter what bryan thought anyway even if it wasn't said gone.

If fox want a mystique solo then it will happen, if bryan singer wants a solo then it still has to go through FOX either way.

 

[marvelrobbins]

to be honest bryan once said it on the X2 commantary about mystique solo spy film so it's not like fox has been rushing to do mystique as solo film.

 

[Reverse-Zoom]

Singer breathed life into the xmen again and then took it all away from one movie to the next.

 

[henzINNIT]

"Killing" is such a ridiculous overstatement, but it's an interesting topic. Fox are certainly not using the license to its fullest potential, and haven't since the very beginning. They're gradually getting better though. It's not the Rothman days anymore.

The films appear to be free of the crushing studio meddling for the most part, which is great. They just need to show a little more faith, more ambition, and catch up to the standard of continuity and vision that Marvel has so well established.

Maybe we should get someone that knows how to train the X-men the use and control of their powers. I don't know, maybe someone who's trained Havok, Banshee, and Beast in the sub basement and the school grounds in the past.

Biggest problem with Mystique in a nutshell.

Charles couldn't possibly be gathering and training the X-Men in this film because if he did that, there would be no role for Mystique. Never mind it being exactly what Charles should be doing.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Charles couldn't possibly be gathering and training the X-Men in this film because if he did that, there would be no role for Mystique. Never mind it being exactly what Charles should be doing.

Tbh i don't believe that at all, if they wanted to give mystique a role they could and they were not restricted to what they could do with her.

Although thinking about it now... there was no training at all, everything changed the moment charles was taken because then stryker turned up so putting everything down to finding a role mystique is silly especially if we all watched the same movie here.

 

[marvelrobbins]

"Killing" is such a ridiculous overstatement, but it's an interesting topic. Fox are certainly not using the license to its fullest potential, and haven't since the very beginning. They're gradually getting better though. It's not the Rothman days anymore.

The films appear to be free of the crushing studio meddling for the most part, which is great. They just need to show a little more faith, more ambition, and catch up to the standard of continuity and vision that Marvel has so well established.



Biggest problem with Mystique in a nutshell.

Charles couldn't possibly be gathering and training the X-Men in this film because if he did that, there would be no role for Mystique. Never mind it being exactly what Charles should be doing.

APart from FF where fox panacked when they saw the film Trank was making after letting him make his dark FF films their X-Men films are very much director vision.Love em or hate them FC was vaughn's.The wolverine
and logan were mangold's DOFP and apocalypse were Singer's and deadpool
was Miller's.whenever another X-men full team film is made the characters who get the focus will depend on who the director is.

as for mystique i doudt many even if they like X-Men films will defend lawrence's mystique.

 

[henzINNIT]

Tbh i don't believe that at all, if they wanted to give mystique a role they could and they were not restricted to what they could do with her.

Although thinking about it now... there was no training at all, everything changed the moment charles was taken because then stryker turned up so putting everything down to finding a role mystique is silly especially if we all watched the same movie here.

To make Mystique's point of view meaningful, they had to nerf Charles of his core character traits. Despite his last 20 years of life experience and a promise to form the X-Men (to a friend from the future, no less), we're supposed to believe that Charles no longer cares to do it because he is suddenly naive about how the world works. What I see is a horribly contrived scenario to ensure that Mystique is relevent.

APart from FF where fox panacked when they saw the film Trank was making after letting him make his dark FF films their X-Men films are very much director vision.Love em or hate them FC was vaughn's.The wolverine
and logan were mangold's DOFP and apocalypse were Singer's and deadpool
was Miller's.whenever another X-men full team film is made the characters who get the focus will depend on who the director is.

This is certainly something I wouldn't want to lose. The best comic book films tend to feel like a director's film. That said, I don't think it is too big a compromise for Fox to bring in a Feige-like figure who knows these stories and can help steer the ship. The films don't have to be micro-managed and closely tied together, but the franchise at present barely hangs together at all. You could argue Kinberg acts in that capacity already, but he sucks lol.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Bryan Singer -

http://www.slashfilm.com/mystique-solo-movie/

Thank you for the link.

Where have i been? on here a very long time and throwing beast into the argument just felt really disconnected

If anything, a complaint about Beast's development, or lack thereof, is very much on topic in a thread called "Is Fox killing the X-men."

Although I disagree with the OP, especially the ridiculous notion that "Marvel file a lawsuit against Fox because they are [sic] used there [sic] character that Marvel have the right too [sic]."

as for mystique i doudt many even if they like X-Men films will defend lawrence's mystique.

Oh people have tried.

Biggest problem with Mystique in a nutshell.

Charles couldn't possibly be gathering and training the X-Men in this film because if he did that, there would be no role for Mystique. Never mind it being exactly what Charles should be doing.

To make Mystique's point of view meaningful, they had to nerf Charles of his core character traits. Despite his last 20 years of life experience and a promise to form the X-Men (to a friend from the future, no less), we're supposed to believe that Charles no longer cares to do it because he is suddenly naive about how the world works. What I see is a horribly contrived scenario to ensure that Mystique is relevent.

That's what happens in a series where they insist on developing the same few characters. They run out of things to do with their characters and so they are always regressing just to say that character has developed (see: Magneto: bad, good, bad, good).

Unfortunately for McAvoy, it's the second film in a row now where his Xavier is once again in the wrong.

 

[Frankeh]

The origin of the X-Men in Apocalypse in general is just dissappointing. I expected to see Xavier recruiting the big three, or training them, or introducing them to the idea of forming this team to fight for peaceful coexistence or whatever, but we got none of that, they preferred instead to have Xavier chasing Moira, arguing with Mystique, etc. Why wasn't Cyclops shown the X-Jet by Hank and introduced to the concept of the X-Men? Why was this scene with Mystique instead? We could've gotten there what he thinks about having that responsibility on him. The same could be said for Jean, Nightcrawler and Quicksilver -- what do they think about having to be the ones to save a world that hates and fears them? That's the kind of struggle Wolverine went through in X1. We need to get more into the minds of these characters. Of course those are *my* gripes and *my* opinion.

Endzone might kill me but First Class did this better and now they're not considered an actual X-Men team even though Moira came up with the term at the end of the movie.

 

[EnDz0n3]

You're good. No worries lol

I agree though FC did it better. Only with mostly throw away characters most of whom were ultimately killed off.

As I've mentioned before, we sat thru 2 X-men movies with no X-men teams in the past. Three decades and we're finally here in the formation of the X-men, and Jean's already there, Cyclops/Jean barely interacted with Storm and Jubilee's more senior than the big three.

At least we didn't have to sit thru Mystique going around recruiting them? That's a plus yes?

 

[Legion]

Yeah but its kinda obvious what the idea was, it was originally gonna be a prequel, mystique was gonna go with magneto and that was gonna be a prequel to the OT, they didn't know if they would get a sequel to FC so they left things in a place where it could loosely fit together if there wasn't another one.

Course by the time DOFP came alone they had decided they were gonna do time travel stuff and change things up which opened the door to do something different with the characters if they so wished.

Now obviously people can have one eye open on the comics and say this is how she should have gone but the director and writer, probably more so the director cares about the characters and their journey but also cares about the legacy of the films so while mystique went with magneto in the OT she instead stayed with charles in the new timeline.

if it wasn't for the fact some are bitter she was even important at all i think you could see why that was an interesting way to conclude the 3 character arc started in FC with what was actually expected to go the OT route.

As far as what you're saying about the director caring about the character and the journey...again it comes down to why you or the director think that making these changes help the character and the X-Men legacy. I certainly don't think it helps the legacy since it goes against the source material and the original trilogy. It undermines Xavier's role as well as those A list X-Men who now owe who they'll become to Mystique.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

As I've mentioned before, we sat thru 2 X-men movies with no X-men teams in the past. Three decades and we're finally here in the formation of the X-men, and Jean's already there, Cyclops/Jean barely interacted with Storm and Jubilee's more senior than the big three.

They better make it worth the wait!

 

[Legion]

You're good. No worries lol

I agree though FC did it better. Only with mostly throw away characters most of whom were ultimately killed off.

As I've mentioned before, we sat thru 2 X-men movies with no X-men teams in the past. Three decades and we're finally here in the formation of the X-men, and Jean's already there, Cyclops/Jean barely interacted with Storm and Jubilee's more senior than the big three.

At least we didn't have to sit thru Mystique going around recruiting them? That's a plus yes?

I thought that FC and DoFP were amazing films. I have always felt though that the X-Men were not really a complete team...until the end of X2. In X1 they were just 3 people with Wolverine passing through and Rogue as a new student of the school. So as good as the FC trilogy has been I feel like three prequels was a bit much. Like why is there so much build for a group that was barely able to complete their missions without Wolverine's help?

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

Like why is there so much build for a group that was barely able to complete their missions without Wolverine's help?

 

[Limonade]

Yes, I believe Fox is killing the X-Men.

It's indirect. As long as the X-Men Universe is in Fox's table and not Marvel. X-Men will have less of an impact in the comics, and in turn, less options to turn into live-action movies.

I mean look a few examples:

• Quicksilver, a mutant, in the MCU... is dead. (for now)
• In the MCU (in comics, movies, and tv) this push for the Inhumans remains to be an objective for the Marvel sub-sect of Disney.
• Major Comic Events rarely rely on the X-Men perspectives (other than the big names)
• Take a look at another Fox franchise F4: After Jonathan Hickman run of the FF, nothing is being done by Marvel with the FF, unless otherwise specified for a unique role in a storyline.

It's only a matter of time before Fox stops relying on the comics... and brings in "new blood" to tell brand new stories and origins of characters we grew up with.

And when that happens we will all refer them as "XINO' (X-men In Name Only)

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

And when that happens we will all refer them as "XINO' (X-men In Name Only)

 

[marvelrobbins]

Yes, I believe Fox is killing the X-Men.

It's indirect. As long as the X-Men Universe is in Fox's table and not Marvel. X-Men will have less of an impact in the comics, and in turn, less options to turn into live-action movies.

I mean Quicksilver, a mutant, in the MCU... is dead. (for now)
In the MCU (in comics, movies, and tv) this push for the Inhumans remains to be an objective for the Marvel sub-sect of Disney.

It's only a matter of time before Fox stops relying on the comics... and brings in "new blood" to tell brand new stories and origins of characters we grew up with.

And when that happens we will all refer them as "XINO' (X-men In Name Only)

blame it on disney then.or perhapes more likely marvel's *****e trump loving ceo and i don't mean marvel studios which now under feige answers to head of disney instead of marvel ceo.

Fox bought film rights In 1993 after success of X-Men aimiated show.Disney showed no intrest till after fox with X-Men and sony with Spider-man revived the genre and marvel independently made iron man into a box office success.The minute disney bought marvel the douce ceo of marvel has been doing everything possable to hurt X-Men.Legion and other TBD show probally ahppened because in order to get X_Men live action tv shows fox likely offered marvel half the profits with fox paying for it.

anyone who thinks fox will stop making films in X-men franchise which has been successful series and just say here disney can have it are delsional.
Big difference between X-Men and FF.

the rights to quicsilver are split.it was disney or more likely whedon who decered to kill him off.it was marvel who decered to retcon quicksilver and scarlet witch into inhumans and non related to magneto just like they killed
off wolverine.both actions come off as marvel ceo wanting to stick it to fox.

 

[Limonade]

blame it on disney then.or perhapes more likely marvel's *****e trump loving ceo and i don't mean marvel studios which now under feige answers to head of disney instead of marvel ceo.

Fox bought film rights In 1993 after success of X-Men aimiated show.Disney showed no intrest till after fox with X-Men and sony with Spider-man revived the genre and marvel independently made iron man into a box office success.The minute disney bought marvel the douce ceo of marvel has been doing everything possable to hurt X-Men.Legion and other TBD show probally ahppened because in order to get X_Men live action tv shows fox likely offered marvel half the profits with fox paying for it.

anyone who thinks fox will stop making films in X-men franchise which has been successful series and just say here disney can have it are delsional.
Big difference between X-Men and FF.

the rights to quicsilver are split.it was disney or more likely whedon who decered to kill him off.it was marvel who decered to retcon quicksilver and scarlet witch into inhumans and non related to magneto just like they killed
off wolverine.both actions come off as marvel ceo wanting to stick it to fox.

I agree with you.

I also share that, Fox and Disney, are to blame to a degree.

And while Whedon may have pitched the idea for killing Quicksilver... Marvel stamped its approval. Whedon is no renegade. He still had to follow lock step with the overall vision Sith-Lord Feige and Disney had in place.

I do hope this pettiness, one day goes away and is replaced with acceptance and a roadmap to a shared licensing agreement with both parties.

That is, at least, the most I can hope for now.

 

[def28]

Anyone on here actually reading Inhumans Vs X-Men, cause so far it's pretty awesome.

I keep seeing these complaints about X-Men comics (mostly form non modern readers), and it's almost always bs. There has always been a slew of X-Men comics out there, Inhumans has never had the upprehend in sales, amount of comics or popularity. Quality in modern X-Men comics can be argued, but that argument can be made for all Marvel comics and personal preference. They have pretty much replaced every legacy character with someone else and that's caused a lot of frustration across the board.

But this whole notion of Inhumans actually replacing X-Men or being more of a priority in comics has always been proven false. Heck they are not even getting a film series now. This conspiracy has now been going on for years with certain fanboys yet there is still not one Inhumans character with a fanbase like Wolverine, Jean, Deadpool, Rogue, Storm etc. Marvel comics know this and by now that should be pretty obvious with any fan.