Comics Is Franklin Richards the most powerful mutant?

[BrianWilly]

if jean grey was the pinnacle of mutation, why would sinister bother trying to create offspring with her dna combine with scott summers.

he would have already found the perfect specimen with Jean.

it makes no sense...

Are we talking Age of Apocalpyse? Or 616? Divergent timelines are tricky enough as it is to figure out.

Sinister's obsession first and foremost was with the Summers clan. Who even knows why? Everything else took second priority to screwing around with the Summerses.

But even so, he was always very interested in Jean as well. Remember, he made a clone of her, just for the hell of it, which was what started the whole mess with baby Nathan in the first place.

Right up until the late nineties, the details of Jean's powers were still mostly unclear. When she was "resurrected" from the coccoon, she didn't seem to have any connection to the Phoenix at all and Rachel had long since started to call herself Phoenix by then, so everyone was pretty confused about the whole thing. As genetic-savvy as Sinister may be, he was probably no exception. To make matters even more confusing, at this point Maddie had received the Phoenix powers that left Jean when she died.

There were probably too many x-factors -- pun intended -- for Sinister to focus his attention solely on Jean. At the least, it wouldn't have been smart for him to take such big risks when there were so many unsure parameters. And frankly it was probably easier for him to start from scratch with baby Nathan (which he knew he could do) than to try and get Jean under his sway (which is less likely). He'd already had a pretty big failure with Maddie, he probably didn't think it would be any different with Jean.

 

[OutcryX]

The Phoenix did not start out as a separate force from Jean. Originally it was an aspect of her own power. And now it has been returned to that template. It may be convoluted (Is it? Really?) but it's canon. You may not like it, but that doesn't stop it from existing.

Whether or not Jean is Phoenix and Phoenix is Jean...Jean is dead. For her to be able to have so much power at her disposal...second only to GOD..she sure dies alot. I think they should let her stay dead until someone comes up with a clear cut idea as to whether or not the two are one and the same or seperate...so that this damn silly debate can finally be given closure(but i'm sure it would only open more similar debates). Canon or not it IS convulted because all this canon seems to be rewritten by whatever writer is writing it at the time. Now why Wanda just didn't erase THAT from existence is beyond me.

 

[javon]

Please leave "Jean is Phoenix and Phoenix is Jean" out of this argument. 1st off the whole Phoenix/Jean thing is tired and too DAMN convoluted. I could care less about Jean and i hope she and the Phoenix crap stay gone. Marvel can't give it a rest.

The Phoenix was cool and all when it was said to be this really powerful cosmic entity and it used Jean as its host, but now writers have come along and all of a sudden she is the Pheonix, 2nd in power only to GOD??? Give me a phucking break. Stronger then Christ and Satan? Would've given them the spots under GOD.

At anyrate my pick for Strongest mutant is or was Nate Grey. I also have to add that this most powerful contest is pointless, because all these mutants have limitations or more to the point can be beaten by someone else with power depending on power or skill and team work. No one is unbeatable.

t: NOW this is getting interesting......

 

[BrianWilly]

I think they should let her stay dead until someone comes up with a clear cut idea as to whether or not the two are one and the same or seperate...so that this damn silly debate can finally be given closure(but i'm sure it would only open more similar debates).

Well, someone has already done this. Greg Pak flat out went and did exactly what you just described in Phoenix: Endsong. Jean is the Phoenix, and all prior contradictions were due to the fact that the Phoenix was fragmented into a billion pieces when Jean died the first time. A piece went to Rachel, a piece went to Maddie, and when Jean woke up from the coccoon she didn't have any of the pieces which is why everyone -- even herself -- got the impression that she wasn't the Phoenix at all in the first place.

There. Explained. Seriously, how many different ways can you interpret "I am you" that Jean says to the Force or "You and I are one" that the Force says to Jean?? Really. If there's another way for anyone to take those statements, I'd love to know how they're doing it.

And yet, just like you said, people are still debating the "damn silly debate" because...well, I don't know. Maybe the four or five writers who have corroborated on this are just still being unclear, though I can't imagine how. Or maybe people just don't know how to read. Or maybe everyone thinks I'm just joking, like I'm just pulling these instances out of thin air to make you all look stupid when you believe it. Ha ha, I got you there! Or they just hate the stated canon so much that they feel the need to look for loop-holes.

Look, loop-holes are always going to exist. The fact is that the whole Phoenix thing spent almost twenty years under a retcon telling us that everything about her origin was false, so of course there are going to be discrepancies from that period. What's telling, though, is that even with that massive blot of a coccoon retcon, even with Marvel editorial forcing the writers to bring Jean back as a different persona than the Phoenix that she was originally, even with all that...eventually they just couldn't keep the Phoenix separate from her and more and more evidence began to disprove that retcon until recently when it was completely done away with it. This occurred completely naturally, instead of the whole "Phoenix was just a clone!" cop-out they used originally. In every single major continuity that we know of -- 616, AoA, TV Show, X-Men: Evolution, Ultimate universe, movie, even video game etc etc etc...Jean has been shown to be the Phoenix, in most instances the Phoenix being a natural form of her powers. That's telling.

 

[MJB]

Well, someone has already done this. Greg Pak flat out went and did exactly what you just described in Phoenix: Endsong. Jean is the Phoenix, and all prior contradictions were due to the fact that the Phoenix was fragmented into a billion pieces when Jean died the first time. A piece went to Rachel, a piece went to Maddie, and when Jean woke up from the coccoon she didn't have any of the pieces which is why everyone -- even herself -- got the impression that she wasn't the Phoenix at all in the first place.

There. Explained. Seriously, how many different ways can you interpret "I am you" that Jean says to the Force or "You and I are one" that the Force says to Jean?? Really. If there's another way for anyone to take those statements, I'd love to know how they're doing it.

And yet, just like you said, people are still debating the "damn silly debate" because...well, I don't know. Maybe the four or five writers who have corroborated on this are just still being unclear, though I can't imagine how. Or maybe people just don't know how to read. Or maybe everyone thinks I'm just joking, like I'm just pulling these instances out of thin air to make you all look stupid when you believe it. Ha ha, I got you there! Or they just hate the stated canon so much that they feel the need to look for loop-holes.

Look, loop-holes are always going to exist. The fact is that the whole Phoenix thing spent almost twenty years under a retcon telling us that everything about her origin was false, so of course there are going to be discrepancies from that period. What's telling, though, is that even with that massive blot of a coccoon retcon, even with Marvel editorial forcing the writers to bring Jean back as a different persona than the Phoenix that she was originally, even with all that...eventually they just couldn't keep the Phoenix separate from her and more and more evidence began to disprove that retcon until recently when it was completely done away with it. This occurred completely naturally, instead of the whole "Phoenix was just a clone!" cop-out they used originally. In every single major continuity that we know of -- 616, AoA, TV Show, X-Men: Evolution, Ultimate universe, movie, even video game etc etc etc...Jean has been shown to be the Phoenix, in most instances the Phoenix being a natural form of her powers. That's telling.

Well I'm glad you cleared that all up!! NOT! What you and writers want is just for people who have read those so called fragments of the Phoenix that appeared in past comics to just forget what they read and accept that this Endsong clears everything up right? Wrong. In two more years a new writer with editorial approval will change it again. It's a load of crap. Jean was fragmented and those fragments traveled to alternate univereses and through time, and to different people, etc... Give me a phucking break.

 

[BrianWilly]

And until that happens -- until a new writer comes up with something else to displace everything Pak, Morrison, Claremont, Kelly, and Nicieza wrote -- I'm still right and you're still wrong.

Tell me, how does that make you feel?

What you and writers want is just for people who have read those so called fragments of the Phoenix that appeared in past comics to just forget what they read and accept that this Endsong clears everything up right?

Are you even aware that this "Jean is not Phoenix" canon that you're hanging desperately onto was a retcon of earlier events? As in, people who read about Jean being the Phoenix had to just forget about what they read and accept that Jean clones appearing in coccoons clears everything up, right? So basically, you get indignant and won't accept the current retcon -- which actually brings Jean back to her original status quo -- but just want everyone to hang onto the retcon that you do like from twenty years ago?

As per hip message board decorum, I shall now post a sarcastic animated gif telling you how you should feel!

And also

Thank you.

Jean was fragmented and those fragments traveled to alternate univereses and through time, and to different people, etc... Give me a phucking break.

Yes, because sentient cosmic forces making clones of itself and the body that it's inhabiting and then sticking one of them in a river for years is so much more grounded and realistic and understandable. "Y'know that woman Jean who was hanging out with us, killed a few people, and then sacrificed her life for the universe? Yeah, that's a clone. The woman Scott married who looks like Jean? Also a clone. But hey, better than time travel!!"

Please.

 

[MJB]

And until that happens -- until a new writer comes up with something else to displace everything Pak, Morrison, Claremont, Kelly, and Nicieza wrote -- I'm still right and you're still wrong.

Tell me, how does that make you feel?

Are you even aware that this "Jean is not Phoenix" canon that you're hanging desperately onto was a retcon of earlier events? As in, people who read about Jean being the Phoenix had to just forget about what they read and accept that Jean clones appearing in coccoons clears everything up, right? So basically, you get indignant and won't accept the current retcon -- which actually brings Jean back to her original status quo -- but just want everyone to hang onto the retcon that you do like from twenty years ago?

As per hip message board decorum, I shall now post a sarcastic animated gif telling you how you should feel!

And also

Thank you.

Yes, because sentient cosmic forces making clones of itself and the body that it's inhabiting and then sticking one of them in a river for years is so much more grounded and realistic and understandable. "Y'know that woman Jean who was hanging out with us, killed a few people, and then sacrificed her life for the universe? Yeah, that's a clone. The woman Scott married who looks like Jean? Also a clone. But hey, better than time travel!!"

Please.

Say what you want. I still don't buy it. Writers should have set up a definition for jean and phoenix and not adjust things at every damn whim. Sorry dude, and you can call me whatever you want and get mad but it still doesn't change the fact that Marvel screwed up. Jean was used to host the phoenix yearsago and now she was never a host but the Phoenix itself? Please, and it sucks.

 

[BrianWilly]

Jean was the Phoenix before she was a host for the Phoenix. If you're trying to play dibs with continuity, at least get it right.

 

[grunge420]

If Franklin is such a weakling then I would like for any of you to list another character from the MU that knocked a Celestial on it's a$$ with ease and put Galactus in another dimension which Galactus was not able to escape.

 

[grunge420]

Say what you want. I still don't buy it. Writers should have set up a definition for jean and phoenix and not adjust things at every damn whim. Sorry dude, and you can call me whatever you want and get mad but it still doesn't change the fact that Marvel screwed up. Jean was used to host the phoenix yearsago and now she was never a host but the Phoenix itself? Please, and it sucks.

You're right,MJB. Jean is not the Phoenix. She was chosen as the rightful host to the Phoenix's powers.

 

[slim_summers]

sweet! I hope this re-opens that bitter argument from 5 or 6 years ago above...