Is It Time to Dissolve the United States?

The US will probably suffer a economic collapse. Gary Johnson, Libertarian Party Canadiate predicts 6-8 years from now we will be like Greece. Look, 15.4 Trillion, 2012. 2016, 21.4 Trilliok. The question is how much debt and a weak dollar will we be able to handle? The only way to reduce debt now is to make harsh cuts, yes, looking at you military. Also need the Fed to give stuff back to the states.
 
Gary Johnson and other libertarians also predicted rampant inflation and a double dip recession for last year. The GDP-to-debt ratio in Greece is around 160 percent and doesn't have security bonds considered the safest investment in the global economy.

I'm not saying the debt is not a serious problem that should be ignored. I'm just saying it isn't Glenn Beck Fun-Crazy Time either. Just saying.
 
Gary Johnson and other libertarians also predicted rampant inflation and a double dip recession for last year. The GDP-to-debt ratio in Greece is around 160 percent and doesn't have security bonds considered the safest investment in the global economy.

I'm not saying the debt is not a serious problem that should be ignored. I'm just saying it isn't Glenn Beck Fun-Crazy Time either. Just saying.

Well said.
 
As technolgies in trade, transportation, and communication progressed, the cultural barriers that divided North, South, and West became less and less prominent. Instead of seeing ourselves as Virginians, Texans, New Yorkers, and Californians like Americans did before the Civil War, we see ourselves as Americans first and foremost and states like Florida, Nevada, and Indiana as places where they happen to live, not their homelands.

You've never been to Texas, have you? LOL!
 
Don't get me wrong, I believe in various conspiracy theories, but Beck and Jones fear mongor. Mark Dice doesn't do that. He educates, even though he comes off douce like at times. Also like Joe Rogan, granted I don't know much about him & conspiracies, I just like him stand up and fear factor wise.

But whatever, natural disasters like that Volcano under Yellowstone could erupt....years & years & years from now. Point is, it's okay to know about stuff like that, but don't let it drive your life.
 
You've never been to Texas, have you? LOL!

How is it that the same people who think of themselves as the most patriotic, flag-waving "real Americans" around are also the ones most willing to entertain notions of secession?
 
How is it that the same people who think of themselves as the most patriotic, flag-waving "real Americans" around are also the ones most willing to entertain notions of secession?
I lived in Texas for close to 5 years. Those are some interesting people. They are TEXANS first, 'Merican's second. At least the white ones I met.

It's also the only state I've ever seen with a sign on the door to the bank asking you to please not bring your gun(s) inside.
 
An independent Texas would be little more than a glorified American protectorate.
 
I lived in Texas for close to 5 years. Those are some interesting people. They are TEXANS first, 'Merican's second. At least the white ones I met.

It's also the only state I've ever seen with a sign on the door to the bank asking you to please not bring your gun(s) inside.

"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition," as my former Texan co-worker likes to say.
 
I don't know, there are counter-arguments to a lot of those points. Even when people within a country have barriers in terms of language, religion, or ethnicity, you can still unite them under the banner of a common nationality.
It very rarely works

Look at Quebec; Canada originated in the union of English-speaking and French-speaking Canadians. Of course there have always been tensions and separatist movements, but at the same time Canada remains one country.
That's because the Canadian government bought Quebec off. And look at the result, Western Canadians are pissed at what they view as Quebec taking all of the money and giving nothing back in return.

Another thing that helped Canada in regards to Quebec separatism is the complete and utter collapse of the Bloc Quebecois. If that party had better leadership like Scotland's Alex Salmond of the Scottish National Party, we'd probably see a stronger separatist movement within Quebec.

The United States has historically been a "melting pot" of different cultures and ethnic groups - Europeans, Africans, Hispanics, Asians. Anyone would admit that this has led to huge problems in the past - slavery, segregation, anti-immigrant xenophobia, race riots. But through it all, the country managed to stay united.
That's why ethnic tensions haven't been a problem in the United States. There really is no such thing as ethnic Americans. It's very different as opposed to the Basques and Catalans of Spain, the Kurds of Iraq and Turkey, Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo, or even the Quebecois of Canada.

Given these objective situations, I don't see why it's any less realistic to say that one day we might get rid of the border dividing, say, the USA and Canada. The only thing blocking it in people's minds would be stale nationalist ideas, which don't have much to do with the way the world really works in a globalized economy.
The United States and Canada merging is a lot more sensible than other countries. Like the United States, there is no such thing as an ethnic Canadian because Canada is also an immigrant nation. Asides from Quebec, the United States and Canada are very similar culturally, religiously, and linguistically. Plus the economies of Canada and the United States are very tied together.

But try and merge for example, the United States and Mexico.....no ****ing way that would ever happen.

Yes, the Industrial Revolution connected the states and territories, but the ability for that to flourish in this country sprang from one single nation instead of a series of varyingly successful autonomous states. The reason the US was able to emerge as the definitive superpower of the 20th century because it was one single country separated from the infighting we saw in Europe or even the Middle East today. The fact that union remained in tact and did not break off into many states--which would have been inevitable if the Confederacy succeeded in their secession--made the US able to grow and grow its economy and infrastructure in an interconnected way despite regional disparities (the Northeast vs. the Deep South, vs. the "wild" West, etc.)

Also you point out that most Americans called themselves "Americans" first and "Virginians second." This is because of the Civil War. Before the war, people said "The United States are." After the war, it became, "The United States is..." Lincoln squashed that idea of state supremacy. It still exists in small minorities in Texas, Alaska, midwest militias, Waco-styled cults, etc. but it is incredibly small and unrealistic.
The Civil War had nothing to do with that. Asides from ending slavery and stating that the states could not secede, the North was essentially fighting for the status quo.

There was no such thing as state supremacy. The Constitution firmly states that the Federal government is supreme and the Supreme Court repeatedly defended the supremacy of the Federal government all the way back to McCulloch v. Maryland in 1819. The South recognized that the Federal government was supreme and that is why the seceded. They feared that the Federal government would use its supremacy to free the slaves (which Lincoln had no intention of) so they decided to break away and form their own nation. Before the Civil War the United States operated on a system of dual sovereignty where the Federal government was supreme and after the Civil War, it was the exact same thing. This concept of dual sovereignty was upheld by the Supreme Court in Collector v. Day in 1871. All the Civil War did in this regard is tell a bunch of angry racists that they were forced to stay with us. Things like that tend to create divisions, not heal them. After the Civil War, people still had the mentality of being Virginians and Ohioans and Georgians and whatnot.

Now if Lincoln were not assassinated, I think you may have had a point. Unlike the Radical Republicans who took control of Reconstruction and treated the South not only like a defeated power, but also a conquered territory, Lincoln had unity and reconciliation first and foremost in his mind. He wanted a speedy restoration of the Union and had no real desire to humiliate the South after the war. Things like that could have gone a long way if Lincoln were not killed.

Simple things like people traveling beyond 25 miles from where they were born, being exposed to goods from all over the country, being able to communicate with people instantly as opposed to waiting for weeks for a letter did far more to erode divisions than the Civil War. And because Lincoln was unfortunately assassinated, innovators like Alexander Graham Bell, Henry Ford, Theodore Judah, and others did far more to erode divisions than Lincoln.

To think that the US is going to collapse because of debt in the next 20 years, as some in this thread do, is ridiculous.
I agree.
 
Seems fairly inevitable that Canada and the US will one day be one country. Or part of a political union. You could argue they already are in many ways. Shared history, common language, and a common defense. Mexico is already working on it.

Might as well. The world is basically one big society at the moment. A merger between the U.S. and Canada isn't going to make any ripples in the huge problem we already have.
 
Seems fairly inevitable that Canada and the US will one day be one country. Or part of a political union. You could argue they already are in many ways. Shared history, common language, and a common defense. Mexico is already working on it.

>_< North American Union! Can I get a whoop whoop. All we need is Jay-Z to do a rap about it.
 
The Civil War had nothing to do with that. Asides from ending slavery and stating that the states could not secede, the North was essentially fighting for the status quo.

That is simply not true. Many scholars more informed than I have written extensively on it. The end of Ken Burns's excellent Civil War documentary detailed this. Before the war, people valued state government above federal government. The idea of Federalism was that the powers were equal and that is why so many libertarians detest Lincoln for not letting the South secede (and conveniently overlook the hypocrisy of that as slavery was their driving concern upon attempted secession). The federal government not allowing the Southern states to secede pretty much permanently showed the central government was the superior one. And it was after the war "The United States is...." became a common expression.

I could go link diving, but I really don't want to.
 
That's why ethnic tensions haven't been a problem in the United States.

Uh...you sure about that?

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Didn't the GOP just run a successful (and pointless wedge) campaign in 2010 against the "9/11 Victory Mosque?"

Excellent point.
 
Didn't the GOP just run a successful (and pointless wedge) campaign in 2010 against the "9/11 Victory Mosque?"

Excellent point.
 
Uh...you sure about that?

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While the United States certainly isn't perfect, we didn't have to deal with things such as Irish or Japanese or Islamic separatist movements. Despite the terrible discrimination they faced, they still saw themselves as Americans. As a matter in fact, despite the current wave of Islamophobia, the United States still has a better integrated Islamic population than Europe.
 
That is simply not true. Many scholars more informed than I have written extensively on it. The end of Ken Burns's excellent Civil War documentary detailed this. Before the war, people valued state government above federal government. The idea of Federalism was that the powers were equal and that is why so many libertarians detest Lincoln for not letting the South secede (and conveniently overlook the hypocrisy of that as slavery was their driving concern upon attempted secession). The federal government not allowing the Southern states to secede pretty much permanently showed the central government was the superior one. And it was after the war "The United States is...." became a common expression.

I could go link diving, but I really don't want to.
Even after the war people valued state government above federal government. It wasn't until people started to become more mobile and developed less attachments of the places where they were born and were exposed to other areas outside of their home that people started to see them more along the lines of Americans over their regions.

Though I would like to see that documentary, it's a viewpoint I would like to see. What's the title?
 
"The Civil War." It is pretty much the definitive documentary on the War and is 9 parts (9 hours). PBS replays it every few years and I"m sure it is online, as well.
 
While the United States certainly isn't perfect, we didn't have to deal with things such as Irish or Japanese or Islamic separatist movements.

As a Civil War buff, you yourself are fully aware that the U.S. is no stranger to separatist movements.
 
As a Civil War buff, you yourself are fully aware that the U.S. is no stranger to separatist movements.

But that had nothing to do with ethnicity and more along the lines of a bunch of ignorant people thinking that the Federal government was going to use its supremacy to take away their property despite the fact that Lincoln had no intention to do so.

The Civil War was WASP vs. WASP not an ethnic conflict like say the ETA going up against the Spanish government, or the civil war in Sri Lanka, or the ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia.
 

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