Is Superman getting the shaft in "Justice League"? - Part 2

[Zur-en-Arrh]

reading this thread is like going to court

 

[Herolee10]

reading this thread is like going to court

Indeed. Though imagine if there was a college course with this subject treated as a essay question.lol

Oh, I'm not asking for much but I at least hope that they make one official theatrical poster that has superman on it, regardless of his status in this film.

 

[Flint Marko]

It often smacks of posters just trying out the "WB has no plan!" angle under a different guise.

WB has no real plan and they never did beyond "make movies based on DC characters". No guise there, I've been saying it for years and I've never been more confident in that than I am now.

But as I have repeated endlessly...we are not always going to be privy to the nuts and bolts of WB's plans.

And plans, the best laid of them, can and do change and evolve. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Course correction and the ability to adapt to changing circumstances is not a bad thing, in business or creativity.

It is 100% a bad thing when someone is constantly course-correcting. That's a sure-fire sign that they have no idea what they're doing, but you know this.

 

[Herolee10]

Honestly, I wonder... If a majority of fans end up being displeased with how Superman is used for this film, would they be willing to see him used again for any potential sequels? Or would people be okay with having superman brand off in his own franchise and keep him in his own solo franchise, sort of like how the Guardians of the galaxy aren't required to be in every Avengers movie?

 

[The Guard]

Okay I'll relent on screen time.

But oh please...

What you call setup... I call backpedaling.

The definition of backpedaling, in the context that I assume you mean, is as follows:

to retreat from or reverse one's previous stand on any matter; shift ground:

Which previous stand on a matter did BVS "retreat from".

And obviously I don't buy it... it's under the false assumption that the production crew had a plan...

You don't buy what?

A plan for what?

In fact, there was no foreshadowing in MoS.

No foreshadowing for what? Batman? Because I'm pretty sure someone crashes into a Wayne Enterprises satellite during the final battle.

It's more of an addendum... A "look! this happened in this event as well!" of what took place. Because obviously, we have to take BvS on its word because there was nothing shown on MoS that this was where it was going. That's not good writing and often times, without foreshadowing it really feels like they're making it up as they go along. There were no "Ahh... so that's why that peculiar scene was there."

There is no rule that you have to foreshadow something in the first film of a franchise to use that element in the second film.

There's nothing about that sequence that equals bad writing. In fact, itturned out to be a favorite among fans and critics alike.

And it's known that many popular modern trilogies have consistencies in their titles... Star War, Matrix, Pirates of the Caribbean...There's no rules saying you have to do so. But without some sort of consistency in even in the title people are going to take it as its own thing.
Why do you think discussions of MOS2 continues to this day and you have to continuously remind people that this was their Man of Steel 2?

You just said yourself that there is no rule regarding titles.

Why do I think discussions on "MOS2" continue? Because its easier than writing "the Superman solo sequel", and fanboys gonna fanboy.

And when Man of Steel 2 does come out, eventually. What are we going to call BvS? Man of Steel 1.5?

Umm, it has a title already...

Why on earth are you so hung up on the titles?

 

[Limonade]

Honestly, I wonder... If a majority of fans end up being displeased with how Superman is used for this film, would they be willing to see him used again for any potential sequels? Or would people be okay with having superman brand off in his own franchise and keep him in his own solo franchise, sort of like how the Guardians of the galaxy aren't required to be in every Avengers movie?

Superman doesn't need to do anything different. He's not the issue.

In fact, Superman needs to be treated equally and on par with his superhero counterparts. This view of Superman being OP and somewhat broken is just absurd.

I mean yes, dudes got some issues. He is human. Yet his upbringing is that filled with love, compassion, and honesty. He's a humble and thoughtful Superhero but when pushed his powers can be limitless.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Superman is not set up like GOTG. He fights in the same Earth as the other heroes. Unless you want to have him in his own separate Earth.

 

[Herolee10]

Superman is not set up like GOTG. He fights in the same Earth as the other heroes. Unless you want to have him in his own separate Earth.

He could always have his next adventure take place in space, where we see him come across villains like Brainiac and Mongul.

And when not in space, they could always have him transported to the future to fight alongside the Legion (a group of superheroes that was actually inspired by Superman's actions). Or how about the whole struggle on the likes of New Krypton? Superman doesn't need to be on Earth with the JL. He could make his own team elsewhere.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

So Dr. strange made more money than MOS as well. Neway the reason there hasn't been a MOS2 is probably because the studio considers BvS his sequel, I do as well, and they want to take this chance to use Superman to bring in other characters who might also get some good traction.

 

[The Guard]

He could always have his next adventure take place in space, where we see him come across villains like Brainiac and Mongul.

And when not in space, they could always have him transported to the future to fight alongside the Legion (a group of superheroes that was actually inspired by Superman's actions). Or how about the whole struggle on the likes of New Krypton? Superman doesn't need to be on Earth with the JL. He could make his own team elsewhere.

Maybe temporarily, but I think I'd rather see them develop Metropolis and his relationship with the people of Earth.

Braniac or Mongul can come to Earth.

He can go into space with the Justice League, or randomly during superpowered fights, as seems to be a theme.

 

[metaphysician]

I feel that Man OF Steel movie is underrated, but for the sake of argument, let's look at All Critics Average ratings and Top Critics Average Ratings given on Rotten Tomatoes.

MoS is at least equal to or better than following movies. If those movies are still getting sequels then there's no reason why MoS which earned more (668 mil.) money than All those movies, shouldn't get a sequel.

All Critics - Average Rating

MoS - Average Rating: 6.2/10

The Incredible Hulk -Average Rating: 6.2/10
Thor 2 -Average Rating: 6.2/10
X-Men Apocalypse - Average Rating: 5.7/10

Top Critics - Average Rating

MoS - Average Rating: 6.1/10

Iron Man 2 - Average Rating: 6/10
The Incredible Hulk - Average Rating: 5.8/10
X-Men Apocalypse - Average Rating: 5.6/10
Thor 2 - Average Rating: 5.5/10

Several points:

1. Incredible Hulk *hasn't* gotten any sequels.
2. The rest are part of franchises where, that one entry had poor ratings, but prior ones by the same creative team did much better. Not the same thing as having the very first movie be crappy.
3. Every single one of those movies was *vastly* cheaper to make than MoS.

( Also, I reject the idea that average ratings are a particularly useful measure, due to the excess jitter and imprecision resulting from averaging a whole bunch of jittery and imprecise ratings. )

 

[I Am The Knight]

He could always have his next adventure take place in space, where we see him come across villains like Brainiac and Mongul.

And when not in space, they could always have him transported to the future to fight alongside the Legion (a group of superheroes that was actually inspired by Superman's actions). Or how about the whole struggle on the likes of New Krypton? Superman doesn't need to be on Earth with the JL. He could make his own team elsewhere.

Well, one of the themes of JL seems to be that the world needs a Superman, so I highly doubt that they will be sending him away anytime soon, but who knows. If WB decides that they want to fork the cash for another Superman solo they might want to shake up the formula again like they did with MOS.

 

[jmc]

Snyder and Goyer may very well have pitched the idea to WB but it was ultimately WB's decision to ok it. The reality is if MoS reached the expectations the studio had there wouldn't have been a need to have a BvS at this early stage and WB could have built the universe far more naturally on the back of it.

However their desire to get to Avengers money immediately would have been a huge factor in the decision to ok the movie. WB wanted to have the same level of success but didn't want to put the ground work in like Marvel did. Once MoS failed to reach their ridiculously high expectations it would have been an easy decision to go with Snyder and Goyers idea especially since the last two Batman movies grossed over a billion dollars each. Ironically, it made things worse.

Nothing about the way WB has handled this universe has any real semblance of logic unless the goal is to simply make as much money as quickly as possible. Marvel was always thinking long term, they played it safe, and slowly but surely built its brand. WB in contrast set its universe up almost as an afterthought, with no real objective other than 'catch up' to Marvel as quick as possible once MoS failed to deliver the type of returns they expected, and this objective has lead to nothing but headaches with the exception of Wonder Woman who was more or less removed from the earlier films timeline in order to give her something of a clean slate to work with. There's little doubt in my mind that even if the idea was presented to them from the creative team the decision by WB to ok it was panic move motivated by MoS not reaching the box office figures they estimated.

 

[Mindreaper21]

You know, It would be great if Superman actually has the opening scene. Its not impossible.

 

[sf2]

Indeed. Though imagine if there was a college course with this subject treated as a essay question.lol

Oh, I'm not asking for much but I at least hope that they make one official theatrical poster that has superman on it, regardless of his status in this film.

Lying!!!
you want the superman revival as the central of the story!
you want his screen time as many as the batman!

 

[sf2]

Which is my point. This Superman just wasn't popular enough, so WB brought in Batman.



Not fair to compare Superman to Wonder Woman? It's a perfectly decent comparison. It's just that her movie was a lot better than his.

disagree. it makes a lot more and get universal praise. but i found it just generic and low in excitement factors. and quality wise, MOS is better.

 

[Herolee10]

Maybe temporarily, but I think I'd rather see them develop Metropolis and his relationship with the people of Earth.

Braniac or Mongul can come to Earth.

He can go into space with the Justice League, or randomly during superpowered fights, as seems to be a theme.

Personally, I think there are more pros than cons for taking Superman away from Earth and letting him establish his own group of heroes away from the JL. People could get their solo superman film that wouldn't feel like a retread of previous film's while also seeing Superman get involved with the makings of another superhero unit that he would be better associated with.

That way, future JL films wouldn't need to bring in Superman and if they did, it could be like guardians where he would bring his group with him to make it feel like a real assemble/special attraction.

I mean if Superman can't be a member of this JL, let alone have any involvement in its creation, then give him his own team made up of heroes from his mythology (e.g. Supergirl, Steel, Superboy, Mon-el, etc.)

Heck, look at how they even have Thor forming his own mini team with the Hulk, Valkerie, and Loki to take on Hela.

 

[TheRedWraith]

It's ridiculous to act like he isn't part of the JL and to compensate he needs to be isolated and given his own team.

 

[Micromind]

I feel that Man OF Steel movie is underrated, but for the sake of argument, let's look at All Critics Average ratings and Top Critics Average Ratings given on Rotten Tomatoes.

MoS is at least equal to or better than following movies. If those movies are still getting sequels then there's no reason why MoS which earned more (668 mil.) money than All those movies, shouldn't get a sequel.

All Critics - Average Rating

MoS - Average Rating: 6.2/10

The Incredible Hulk -Average Rating: 6.2/10
Thor 2 -Average Rating: 6.2/10
X-Men Apocalypse - Average Rating: 5.7/10

Top Critics - Average Rating

MoS - Average Rating: 6.1/10

Iron Man 2 - Average Rating: 6/10
The Incredible Hulk - Average Rating: 5.8/10
X-Men Apocalypse - Average Rating: 5.6/10
Thor 2 - Average Rating: 5.5/10

Several points:

1. Incredible Hulk *hasn't* gotten any sequels.
2. The rest are part of franchises where, that one entry had poor ratings, but prior ones by the same creative team did much better. Not the same thing as having the very first movie be crappy.
3. Every single one of those movies was *vastly* cheaper to make than MoS.

( Also, I reject the idea that average ratings are a particularly useful measure, due to the excess jitter and imprecision resulting from averaging a whole bunch of jittery and imprecise ratings. )

I presented the RT ratings, which you are dismissing now, had they supported the point you are making you would have agreed with those ratings.

Apart from those "Average Ratings", the money earned by MoS at Box Office )worldwide) is also impressive, as it is the fourth highest earning Superhero movie till now -

True.

After Spider-Man, Wonder Woman is second highest Origin movie, and there's a chance that it might overtake Spider-Man too (depending on how it is received in Japan) and MoS is fourth highest. Look at all other superhero Origin movies (unadjusted)

Spider-Man-Worldwide: $821,708,551
Wonder Woman - Worldwide: $788,644,373
The Amazing Spider-Man- $757,930,663

Worldwide

Hulk- $245,360,480
Batman Begins- $374,218,673
Superman Returns- $391,081,192
Green Lantern- $219,851,172
Man of Steel- $668,045,518


Iron Man- $585,174,222
The Incredible Hulk- $263,427,551
Thor- $449,326,618
Captain America- $370,569,774
Ant-Man- $519,311,965
Doctor Strange- $677,718,395

Posters here are going to lengths to downplay MoS and what it achieved, moving on..

 

[sf2]

Snyder and Goyer may very well have pitched the idea to WB but it was ultimately WB's decision to ok it. The reality is if MoS reached the expectations the studio had there wouldn't have been a need to have a BvS at this early stage and WB could have built the universe far more naturally on the back of it.

However their desire to get to Avengers money immediately would have been a huge factor in the decision to ok the movie. WB wanted to have the same level of success but didn't want to put the ground work in like Marvel did. Once MoS failed to reach their ridiculously high expectations it would have been an easy decision to go with Snyder and Goyers idea especially since the last two Batman movies grossed over a billion dollars each. Ironically, it made things worse.

Nothing about the way WB has handled this universe has any real semblance of logic unless the goal is to simply make as much money as quickly as possible. Marvel was always thinking long term, they played it safe, and slowly but surely built its brand. WB in contrast set its universe up almost as an afterthought, with no real objective other than 'catch up' to Marvel as quick as possible once MoS failed to deliver the type of returns they expected, and this objective has lead to nothing but headaches with the exception of Wonder Woman who was more or less removed from the earlier films timeline in order to give her something of a clean slate to work with. There's little doubt in my mind that even if the idea was presented to them from the creative team the decision by WB to ok it was panic move motivated by MoS not reaching the box office figures they estimated.

agree. greed dictates all. who doesn't want a gold egg laying goose ASAP? it's too obvious.

having said that if they had have made MOS2, it might not do as well as BvS too. history has shown that they simply couldn't do a seasoned superman story good.

 

[sf2]

He could always have his next adventure take place in space, where we see him come across villains like Brainiac and Mongul.

And when not in space, they could always have him transported to the future to fight alongside the Legion (a group of superheroes that was actually inspired by Superman's actions). Or how about the whole struggle on the likes of New Krypton? Superman doesn't need to be on Earth with the JL. He could make his own team elsewhere.

terrible idea. sorry to say that.

 

[TheRedWraith]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Legion, at some point, but not in MoS2.

 

[Herolee10]

It's ridiculous to act like he isn't part of the JL and to compensate he needs to be isolated and given his own team.

Well, when you really think about it...I don't think this Superman will be an actual member of the group during the duration of this film.

Showing up in the end to help out the group isn't what some people would identify as him being a part of the group.

If anything, Henry's Superman doesn't even feel like he belongs with this group. The DCEU has done such a good (or terrible depending on your POV) job at isolating him from these other heroes that having him stand alongside them now feels weird. Had the DCEU actually built Superman up with these other heroes like how they've done with Batman and Wonder Woman interacting with the rest of the group, then it would have felt organic. But they kept Superman isolated from everyone and thus he doesn't really feel like he belongs with these other characters.

Therefore, it would actually be better for the character to just remain an ally to the group and have him create his own group in his solo films; a group where he had an actual involvement in its formation and where he builds that relationship with each of those given members.

 

[sf2]

Well, when you really think about it...I don't think this Superman will be an actual member of the group during the duration of this film.

Showing up in the end to help out the group isn't what some people would identify as him being a part of the group.

If anything, Henry's Superman doesn't even feel like he belongs with this group. The DCEU has done such a good (or terrible depending on your POV) job at isolating him from these other heroes that having him stand alongside them now feels weird. Had the DCEU actually built Superman up with these other heroes like how they've done with Batman and Wonder Woman interacting with the rest of the group, then it would have felt organic. But they kept Superman isolated from everyone and thus he doesn't really feel like he belongs with these other characters.

Therefore, it would actually be better for the character to just remain an ally to the group and have him create his own group in his solo films; a group where he had an actual involvement in its formation and where he builds that relationship with each of those given members.

you sound like you have already watched the movie. and multiple times.

 

[Predator jp]

Several points:

1. Incredible Hulk *hasn't* gotten any sequels.

i think i heard there's some kind of licensing issue around Hulk is the reason they hasn't made any sequels.
could be wrong though don't shoot me if i was lol